Originally posted by D_Dude1210
O_o
One series LT shows Surfer image of Zen'la surfer rages and boosts power levels over 9000 Galactus goes WTF and wonders. Basically it's understood that the Surfer has complete control over his power cosmic and can basically say I power cosmic more power cosmic into existance but he does it unconsciously. Will look for scans not exactly sure where that is.
Originally posted by Uriel005
One series LT shows Surfer image of Zen'la surfer rages and boosts power levels over 9000 Galactus goes WTF and wonders. Basically it's understood that the Surfer has complete control over his power cosmic and can basically say I power cosmic more power cosmic into existance but he does it unconsciously. Will look for scans not exactly sure where that is.
o_O
Originally posted by Uriel005Most trans level characters and above could take SNG down and some HH could do it too, depending on their powerset.
Unless it's surfer amped to beyond galactus level he's not going to take it from Nate. You can pretty much easily list the number of beings able to beat Nate.High end reality manipulaters Jaspers, Richards, peak Phoenix,
Beings that can bring to absurd amounts of energy to the field, galactus, beyonder, inbetweener pre-retcon, Abstracts.
Some thinkers, prepmasters, and high end mages
peak classic strange, Doom, Reed, kid omega, few others but you get the idea.
This one could really go either way.
Originally posted by Uriel005
Just saying of his powers to use against Nate it's the only real way I see him winning.Also to prior comment about power versatility, Power versatility doesn't count for anything in the face of fewer powers with raw and overwhelming force.
Unless it's surfer amped to beyond galactus level he's not going to take it from Nate. You can pretty much easily list the number of beings able to beat Nate.
High end reality manipulaters Jaspers, Richards, peak Phoenix,
Beings that can bring to absurd amounts of energy to the field, galactus, beyonder, inbetweener pre-retcon, Abstracts.
Some thinkers, prepmasters, and high end mages
peak classic strange, Doom, Reed, kid omega, few others but you get the idea.
Originally posted by "Id"He sees the tree of possible events branching out before him, he's not Manhatan and doesn't see the entire timeline, he sees the many possible outcomes and plays it off them. SS can likely follow him into planck time like ares did as he can timetravel and cross dimensional borders by himself. Tracking him with his cosmic senses and CA shouldn't be an issue either.
No what I mean is. I think its highly unreasonable for Surfer to go back in time, and kill Nate. Nate would know of Surfers intentions thanks to his pre-cog/ability to view the entire timeline, backed with the ability to manipulate time with more freighting ease.
This is a toss up as there are too many variables here. Battle can go to the astral plane, the real wolrd, planck time, other dimensions SS takes them to, etc.
SNG can probably mindrape SS eventually, but it might end before that with a massive energy attack that depletes SNG's reserves - his energy levels were still inconsistant during dark x-men which makes this even more likely.
Originally posted by 753
He sees the tree of possible events branching out before him, he's not Manhatan and doesn't see the entire timeline, he sees the many possible outcomes and plays it off them. SS can likely follow him into planck time like ares did as he can timetravel and cross dimensional borders by himself. Tracking him with his cosmic senses and CA shouldn't be an issue either.
I don’t see the point in brining up a comparison with Dr. Manhattan. Dr. M precog is no different to Nate’s, in fact I would be so bold as to say Nate is superior since his foresight is not limited by viewing points in time, but viewing them in different planes of existence. I also don’t understand why you state he can’t see the entire timeline, given that Nate specifies he is viewing Ares in all futures. But whatever.
Here is the problem, unlike Dark X-Men where Nate wasted his time smoothing things out with Mimic, and throwing the fight with Ares. This plot device simply isn’t present, for Surfer to take advantage of. Meaning Nate will not waste any time to put him down, while Surfer second guesses where he is. Can Surfer follow Nate into the Planck Length? Its possible. Will Nate was time to create such opening, if this is PIS/CIS free match? Clearly No.
Its much easier for Nate to kill Surfer, via time travel exploitation then Surfer given that Nate, can manipulate time at will, as oppose to Surfer having the need push his speed high enough to unravel time.
I also want to throw out that BFR is a viable tactic. If Nate decides to toss Surfer into a an alternate reality. Surfer has no real way to get back, since he has not shown the ability to reality hop like Nate has.
Originally posted by "Id"DM experiences all the moments in his own timeline at once and, because his universe is totally deterministic, nothing can deviate from that. But in marvel, predicting the future is dealing with multiple possible outcomes. SNG sees the tree of possible events branching out and plays it by ear, but he can't really know for sure which timeline out of infinity will come to pass. The future can be changed. This is a recurrent theme about free will in the x-books and it's been established with fate and blindfold; vargas, rogue and the fate diaries; that morlock catatonic girl from messiah complex; and even SNG himself, who pretty much told mimic that his future wasn't set in stone and that he had only seen one of his many possible futures.
I don’t see the point in brining up a comparison with Dr. Manhattan. Dr. M precog is no different to Nate’s, in fact I would be so bold as to say Nate is superior since his foresight is not limited by viewing points in time, but viewing them in different planes of existence. I also don’t understand why you state he can’t see the entire timeline, given that Nate specifies he is viewing Ares in all futures. But whatever.
Well, that depends on how quickly he can gather the power to deliver an onslaught.
Here is the problem, unlike Dark X-Men where Nate wasted his time smoothing things out with Mimic, and throwing the fight with Ares. This plot device simply isn’t present, for Surfer to take advantage of. Meaning Nate will not waste any time to put him down, while Surfer second guesses where he is. Can Surfer follow Nate into the Planck Length? Its possible. Will Nate was time to create such opening, if this is PIS/CIS free match? Clearly No.
Has SNG travelled back in time yet? I thought he'd only reentered the timestream in the future.
Its much easier for Nate to kill Surfer, via time travel exploitation then Surfer given that Nate, can manipulate time at will, as oppose to Surfer having the need push his speed high enough to unravel time.
I also want to throw out that BFR is a viable tactic. If Nate decides to toss Surfer into a an alternate reality. Surfer has no real way to get back, since he has not shown the ability to reality hop like Nate has.Well, he can travel to any dimension he's ever been to and can timetravel. Not sure if he has more direct feats of alternate reality hopping.
Originally posted by raderNate's shielding has easily withstood a direct blast from the planet buster Qabiri:
If Nate started with his shield up, I can't see it staying up for more than a hit or 2.
Hell, even pre-Shaman Nate's shields held up against repeated punches from Modt himself:
http://img7.imageshack.us/i/natemodt2.jpg/
http://img710.imageshack.us/i/natemodt3.jpg/
http://img34.imageshack.us/i/natemodt4.jpg/
And just for a point of reference, Modt was a thousand times more powerful than Jahf (the little fuzzy dude who easily owned Gladiator):
http://img710.imageshack.us/i/natemodt1.jpg/
Point being: IF Surfer is capable of getting past Nate's shields, it'd likely take more than "a hit or two." Imo.
Originally posted by 753
DM experiences all the moments in his own timeline at once and, because his universe is totally deterministic, nothing can deviate from that. But in marvel, predicting the future is dealing with multiple possible outcomes . SNG sees the tree of possible events branching out and plays it by ear, but he can't really know for sure which timeline out of infinity will come to pass. The future can be changed. This is a recurrent theme about free will in the x-books and it's been established with fate and blindfold; vargas, rogue and the fate diaries; that morlock catatonic girl from messiah complex; and even SNG himself, who pretty much told mimic that his future wasn't set in stone and that he had only seen one of his many possible futures.
Both can view the entire timeline at once. I am only saying so because the comic shows, and affirms the following. I took the liberty to highlight a portion of your comment. The only real difference in DM & Nate precog is by, how its applied under different settings. Yes DM’s Universe is significantly narrower, making it more deterministic, in return this makes ability to read his timeline seem more accurate. But take him out of his environment, and pluck him into Marvels universe, suddenly his ability to view timeline will require much more guess work then before.
Now consider that this fight takes place under neutral setting, and not Marvelverse. The mechanics behind DM/Nate’s precog remain relatively the same. No real reason to point out, so many futures can branch off like its stated in Marvel, when the fight isn’t taking place in Marvel to begin with.
Originally posted by 753
Has SNG travelled back in time yet? I thought he'd only reentered the timestream in the future.
Originally posted by 753
Well, he can travel to any dimension he's ever been to and can timetravel. Not sure if he has more direct feats of alternate reality hopping.
Because the comic currently references Nate as a Mental Force. Even if he didn’t place Shields, or Amp his durability. I am not sure you can do any significant physical damage to him. His faux body that contains him, is made of quasi psi construct of his creation. I don’t think Nate even needs to create shields, he could just make himself as strong as he wants. Its very pliable, that’s why different portions body phased through Daken, Bulleye, and Moonstone’s attack, while halting Ares attack.
Originally posted by "Id"DM's perception of his timeline is not just more accurate, it's completely accurate he doesn't predict the future, it's all happening at once, he knows it because he's living it. SNG does not know the entire timeline because he cant know which one will come to pass and the number of possibilties is infinite, he can only make his best informed guesses regarding them. That's why I brought DM up, it has nothing to do with SNG in his universe or vive-versa. DM knew everything in his timeline, nothing could surprise him, SNG doesn't, he can be surprised and the claim that he knows the whole timeline would imply that he can't.
Both can view the entire timeline at once. I am only saying so because the comic shows, and affirms the following. I took the liberty to highlight a portion of your comment. The only real difference in DM & Nate precog is by, how its applied under different settings. Yes DM’s Universe is significantly narrower, making it more deterministic, in return this makes ability to read his timeline seem more accurate. But take him out of his environment, and pluck him into Marvels universe, suddenly his ability to view timeline will require much more guess work then before.Now consider that this fight takes place under neutral setting, and not Marvelverse. The mechanics behind DM/Nate’s precog remain relatively the same. No real reason to point out, so many futures can branch off like its stated in Marvel, when the fight isn’t taking place in Marvel to begin with.
Yes, the moonstone feat would corroborate this, but changing the history of the SS who is tied to cosmic events and more importantly to Galactus's history would be more complicated than that. There is still the matter of how long it takes him as time apparently keeps flowing in the real world while people are in planck time.
By entering into the Planck Length, they step out of time, and accesses the entire timeline of his target. Its from their that they can change the outcome of the future, or mess with the past. I mean if he has accesses to the entire time stream, why would he be limited to only changing the future? Brushing through Moonstone’s past, and erasing her memory along with it, alludes to it.
Originally posted by "Id"
We know he can time travel, and transverse various dimensional planes within a reality. But changing from one reality to the next is a different ballgame. Surfer needed to ride the Cosmic Swell, or some form of dimensional rift. Otherwise no I cant think of an instance where he did so under his own power.
Originally posted by darthgoober
The Cosmic Swell thing wasn't just outside the universe, it was outside the Marvel Multiverse/Omniverse. Surfer's shown to be able to travel to/from the Microverse, Negaverse, alternate dimensions, alternate timelines, and I don't even know where all else, BFRing him really isn't much of an option.
Your response lacks the omitted feat of traveling to a different reality.
