Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I think it did not pass.
no, it did not
Originally posted by dadudemon
WTF AMERICA?!?!?!?!!?!?!?! I'm tired of all this ignorance. I think it's time I moved to another country....
the problem is, no other country is going to pass it until America shows some difference in attitude to the war on drugs, thats why this was so important....
for years canada has had over 60% approval of pot legalization, and continuous challanges in our supreme court. It is no exaggeration to say it is only American infulence that keeps pot illegal here.
Originally posted by inimalist
the problem is, no other country is going to pass it until America shows some difference in attitude to the war on drugs, thats why this was so important....for years canada has had over 60% approval of pot legalization, and continuous challanges in our supreme court. It is no exaggeration to say it is only American infulence that keeps pot illegal here.
the so named "king of cannibis" would disagree with you
I don't deny there are independant growers, like those you would find in BC, Canada or California, but a huge portion of the trade is still controlled by international criminal syndicates. There have been escalations in gang violence in the Netherlands recently, too, dealing with the growing immagrent community and the bikers.
Even then, the laws on the books make any real scale grow operation illegal.
I'm not saying it isn't better in other countries, its just half-measures everywhere. In practice, there are few places even in Winnipeg (or souther ontario where I used to live) where I would legitimatly be worried about smoking in public, I'm sure this is the same as any major American city too.
Originally posted by King Kandy
Oh, I don't doubt... the netherlands thought they could have the best of both worlds and "half-legalize" it, that only causes more problems. But those problems, are not the same as what exists in the US.
for sure
the recent stuff in the UK is good, and I can see Europe moving away from this "War on Drugs" thing quicker than Canada.
I know its somewhat apples and oranges, but look at the needle and heroin addiction programs in Switzerland, and compare that to Vancouver, where the RCMP (Canadian federal police) took out adds to basically slander a similar program when it was first implemented. afaik, there are places in America where you can get arrested for giving addicts free needles, but again, heroin isn't pot... I do see some connections though
So what's up with these Ontario court rulings I hear about that legalize pot in Canada?
I personally thought that the prop 19 law was very well designed. I don't live in Cali, but if I did, it would have been satisfactory.
I live in oregon where our own prop 74 was defeated (legalizing dispensaries). I was pretty baffled by that one as well.
Originally posted by King Kandy
So what's up with these Ontario court rulings I hear about that legalize pot in Canada?
Lower courts ruled it to be a violation of personal liberty. America said that if we legalized it, they would shut down our boarders, a move that costs Canada billions by the hour.
Thus, our supreme court found that it is ok for the government to ban anything that potentially poses as much of a personal health risk as marijuana, a substance known to have numerous beneficial/medicinal qualities. Obviously I have a cynical take on that result.
Originally posted by King Kandy
I personally thought that the prop 19 law was very well designed. I don't live in Cali, but if I did, it would have been satisfactory.I live in oregon where our own prop 74 was defeated (legalizing dispensaries). I was pretty baffled by that one as well.
We had a mega conservative party in the late 90s early 2000s that wanted to put it to a referendum (which would see it legalized almost certainly), but they never got to power, largely because the leader was a young earth creationist. Our socialist party will talk about it when their leader rallies at raves or other "youth" spots, but there is really no serious move for it to be done by the government. Basically, imho, for the fact that America would punish us for it.
Originally posted by inimalist
Lower courts ruled it to be a violation of personal liberty. America said that if we legalized it, they would shut down our boarders, a move that costs Canada billions by the hour.
Originally posted by inimalist
Thus, our supreme court found that it is ok for the government to ban anything that potentially poses as much of a personal health risk as marijuana, a substance known to have numerous beneficial/medicinal qualities. Obviously I have a cynical take on that result.
Originally posted by inimalist
We had a mega conservative party in the late 90s early 2000s that wanted to put it to a referendum (which would see it legalized almost certainly), but they never got to power, largely because the leader was a young earth creationist. Our socialist party will talk about it when their leader rallies at raves or other "youth" spots, but there is really no serious move for it to be done by the government. Basically, imho, for the fact that America would punish us for it.
What I want to know is, where the f*ck was everyone who b*tched and moaned for six months straight that Prop 19 needs to be passed? Most of my buds ironically didn't go vote cuz there were smoking a joint. The irony made me laugh, but that's their excuse, not sure what everyone else's was. Since most sites I've been to get buried with Prop 19 talk that I honestly thought it woulld've been a landslide.
Originally posted by King Kandy
Jesus... that's shameful.
oh, for sure. We have the largest undefended border in the world, iirc more trade goes accross it than anywhere else on the planet, yet the Americans would turn our border into the same gridlock you see in Mexico, just to prove that Canadians shouldn't be allowed to set their own domestic policy.
The saving grace is that it wouldn't last. Our economies are too intertwined, and while it would hurt us more, it is like shooting yourself in the leg.
Originally posted by King Kandy
What was this ruling?
I don't remember completely, but iirc the Ontario courts said that it was a violation of personal liberty to make pot illegal, because the state had given no convincing reason why it should have the right to limit that freedom.
The Supreme court said that this was incorrect because any suspiscion of harm was enough for the state to restrict access to marijuana.
I believe this was 2 years after our senate put out a paper saying that marijuana should be legal for people 16 and older.
Originally posted by King Kandy
Funny, as an american "mega conservative" and "legalizing marijuana" seem like polar opposites, even though they really shouldn't.
I find it funny, because as I have sort of "matured" (I mean literally, from 16 to 26, not as in, I think other people are immature), I've really come to dislike most of the arguments that liberals put forth for drug legalization. They often try to make pot sound beningn, or they seem to be the ones who think everyone just needs a shroom trip, then the world would be a better place.
The conservatives have such a better stance, imho, the personal liberty/economic liberty stuff just seems way more salient to me, and honestly, hearing Milton Friedman or other fiscal conservatives talk about it just seems more cut and dry and logical, my opinion, of course.
our conservatives never had that moral kick to them that seems to innundate the republicans. I mean, it has been there, our voters just never went for it. That is changing a bit though...
Originally posted by Scythe
What I want to know is, where the f*ck was everyone who b*tched and moaned for six months straight that Prop 19 needs to be passed? Most of my buds ironically didn't go vote cuz there were smoking a joint. The irony made me laugh, but that's their excuse, not sure what everyone else's was. Since most sites I've been to get buried with Prop 19 talk that I honestly thought it woulld've been a landslide.
most polls predicted the measure was running at 50%, the most optimistic saying "prop 19 might have a chance", it was considered a long shot from the beginning
Originally posted by inimalist
oh, for sure. We have the largest undefended border in the world, iirc more trade goes accross it than anywhere else on the planet, yet the Americans would turn our border into the same gridlock you see in Mexico, just to prove that Canadians shouldn't be allowed to set their own domestic policy.The saving grace is that it wouldn't last. Our economies are too intertwined, and while it would hurt us more, it is like shooting yourself in the leg.
Originally posted by inimalist
I find it funny, because as I have sort of "matured" (I mean literally, from 16 to 26, not as in, I think other people are immature), I've really come to dislike most of the arguments that liberals put forth for drug legalization. They often try to make pot sound beningn, or they seem to be the ones who think everyone just needs a shroom trip, then the world would be a better place.The conservatives have such a better stance, imho, the personal liberty/economic liberty stuff just seems way more salient to me, and honestly, hearing Milton Friedman or other fiscal conservatives talk about it just seems more cut and dry and logical, my opinion, of course.
our conservatives never had that moral kick to them that seems to innundate the republicans. I mean, it has been there, our voters just never went for it. That is changing a bit though...
I agree... I just don't hear conservatives here say that, because being a conservative is more about being "pro establishment" than any real specific issues (though this seems to be changing, we can see in these latest elections how it actually isn't).
Originally posted by King Kandy
I wish you guys would just call us on it and force us to confront our backwards policy.
we'd have to confront our own first. God, I'd love a referendum on the issue, our national news, CBC, is totally in favor of it, the debate would get such good press coverage and our media wouldn't be completely knee jerk.
People who go on talk shows and ramble about all the "dangers" of pot get tough questions up here, its nice, but like, our citizens live in one world and our government another... LOL, our conservative party got the queen of england to shut down our government for a month to avoid being elected out of power (though, we were going on 4 elections in 5 years).
Originally posted by King Kandy
Pot is pretty benign, especially compared to a lot of other things people put in their bodies. As far as the shroom trips, hell it just goes back to their hippie days when they saw the good effects on their own communal living from it... it does have many known benefits and it inspired good living in that culture.
I hear what you are saying, and maybe we just run with different crowds, but I've had lots of debates at parties about whether marijuana is really a miracle herb that opens your mind and cures all diseases [I'm only exaggerating a little], and it seems more like these are the arguments people have had with themselves about why they think its ok that they can do it, rather than as political theory.
I also think a lot of them don't take into account the bad experiences people have with drugs, especially the hallucinogens, but this is a totally other conversation
Originally posted by King Kandy
I agree... I just don't hear conservatives here say that, because being a conservative is more about being "pro establishment" than any real specific issues (though this seems to be changing, we can see in these latest elections how it actually isn't).
which is weird, because there are so many libertarians in America... Like, all the people in the Republican party, who worship at the alter of Rand and Friedman, also fall right in line with the "Just say no" Regan attitude. [which is amazing, in one breath, "government is not the solution, government is the problem", in the next "ramp up government spending on elite police forces to harass the inner city"... maybe he took it too literally, as in, he is now in the government and feels obliged to cause problems]
Originally posted by inimalist
I hear what you are saying, and maybe we just run with different crowds, but I've had lots of debates at parties about whether marijuana is really a miracle herb that opens your mind and cures all diseases [I'm only exaggerating a little], and it seems more like these are the arguments people have had with themselves about why they think its ok that they can do it, rather than as political theory.
I suspect that's just an outgrowth of the idea that "nature = good". There are people (most of them liberals) who really don't understand that things that come from nature can cause harm. They think that stories about all natural products doing bad things are an invention by drug companies.
I once mentioned to people like this the arsenic is totally natural. They were baffled by the idea.
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
I suspect that's just an outgrowth of the idea that "nature = good". There are people (most of them liberals) who really don't understand that things that come from nature can cause harm. They think that stories about all natural products doing bad things are an invention by drug companies.I once mentioned to people like this the arsenic is totally natural. They were baffled by the idea.
I used to party with a lot of hippies, so I hear that
there is also the fact that, until recently, the war on drugs has made any real information about substances pretty much unavailable. So, when new stuff comes out that does find addictive or carcinogenic qualities to marijuana, there is a huge skepticism, because "government" and "science" are all the same in their perception, and they can't be trusted. [though, to be fair, up until the early 90s this was true]