G- Canon theres no issues. Id say same for T-Canon as its created by Lucas.
But If we know a show or certain medium is exaggerated e.g. CW mini, or TFU, then we know we cant compare those feats to feats of a different medium. For instance we cant compare Mace's cw mini feats to Obi-wan's movie feats.
Although we could of course still compare characters sticking to the same medium, for example Galen Marek vs. Vader feats within TFU. Or Mace vs. Yoda feats within CW mini.
I suppose C-Canon Feats should be dealt with on a case by case basis.
Originally posted by ares834
It's not up to us whether something is canon or not.
No it was supposed to be upto Chee, and we know what he's said.
Originally posted by ares834
We either take it all or we take none of it and since this is the EU forum we should do the former.
Then we're giving everything the same level of canonicity, and completely ignoring the G's and C's.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
No it was supposed to be upto Chee, and we know what he's said.
Then we're giving everything the same level of canonicity, and completely ignoring the G's and C's.
I agree with Darth Power and think you're being pretty narrow minded on the subject ares.
What I propose is this:
If it doesn't directly contradict a higher form of canon or a more recent work of equivalent canonical status, isn't completely unrealistic with respect to higher forms of canon or the majority of works of equivalent canonical status, and the limitations and functions of the medium do not override the story that is being told, the background of the story, or what we know from behind the scenes of what's intended for the story when presenting the story, we treat the work as a fully accurate reflection of the fictional world of Star Wars, for all intents and purposes.
Perhaps we could create a thread where we all collectively apply this method to determining the revised canonicity of any given work or scene or action etc.. I'd rather it not be me as the likelihood is that Peach would probably close it.
Originally posted by NCRotCA
isn't completely unrealistic with respect to higher forms of canon or the majority of works of equivalent canonical status
You were doing great till this bit, but this bit is COMPLETELY subjective. Gideon would say that Luke's higher end feats are all completely unrealistic, and I would say Sidious's higher end feats are all completely and we would bicker about it endlessly, never agreeing, and neither one of us able to prove we are correct.
This WILL happen over and over again with us as well... starting with KOTOR....
I'll start, NIhilus draining a planet is COMPLETELY unrealistic. There. I started it.
I agree with Ares, its all canon... And I STILL want a time signature on that Chee quote. I asked for one twice and got nothing.
Hmm, I'm not so sure though you could possibly be correct. Perhaps I should have used different wording. Though thinking about it I still maintain that you can objectively state that something is unrealistic by simply comparing it to the real state of affairs, though it would certainly qualify as a relative term. Either way while two people can argue about what's realistic it doesn't mean that one of them can't be objectively wrong in saying it. But perhaps inconsistent would have been the better word to use?
Nihilus stays, I would think. His power rather than being driven by making the gameplay or animations etc. look "cool" is actually firmly rooted, and determined, by the storyline and his very characterisation. The Force is presented as a mystical, complex, and vastly powerful thing, full of possibilities and no other work conflicts or has any real contradictory bearing on the nature of the Force and wounds in the Force etc as far as its explored in KotOR 2.
Rather than gaining his power through normal means, Nihilus gains it through his unique status of being a wound in the Force. His power is essentially inexorably linked to both his characterisation, and the plot/central idea of the story. It doesn't conflict with other canon works, and rather than being a product (to any extent) of the medium, is the full product of the story.
Luke's later showings are also fine. The son of The Chosen One, a being who's strength in the Force was off the charts, far outshone his contemporaries, and who had a truly special and unique relationship with the Force: an omnipresent, vastly powerful energy source. As the movie exposits, the likelihood is that Anakin's considerable connection with the Force would have been passed on down to his children, and given the sheer experience Luke now has under his belt it wouldn't be crazy to assume that he would have already realised a huge portion of his potential. I don't think his greater showings are unrealistic at all; I'd imagine it's the same kind of stuff we would have seen from a full potential Anakin.
Sidious's showings on the other hand occur not much later after the movies where he's established as being nowhere near as powerful as he's depicted in DE, with little to no adequate explanation given to his vast rise in power. Take into account the fact that the entire story basically contradicts George Lucas's idea of the Chosen One in the first place and I think we can safely rule out Sidious's showings from the SW canon (and the entire story for that matter).
Originally posted by ares834
What? That some stuff is exagerated... Yeah thats cool, but how can we tell what exagerated and not?
Well we are told some entire mediums are exaggerated like Game Play(which is actually what his quote was addressing). In case of the TFU, I guess the novel would be the best source to go by.
Originally posted by ares834
The answer is we can't. In fact Leland Chee says it's all exagerated therefore according to you we can't use any of it... That's stupid as hell.
When did Leeland Chee say thats Everythings exaggerated?? When Dooku levitate's and paralyzes Quinlan Vos for instance, is that exagerrated?? Well no, especially not considering he does the same thing to Obi-Wan in ROTS.
Is Palpatine creating a Force Storm that wipes out entire fleets exaggerated?? Probably. I wnt cry about that, considering Dark Empire is just kiddish anyway.
But in any case to be honest anything post ROTJ is fine because Lucas has never touched that time period neway, and you have Luke becoming the most powerful Jedi ever, and Palpatine resurrected and more powerful than ever, so logically the feats would be above and beyond what we see in the movies. So I personally dnt see a contradiction there. But whatever.
Originally posted by ares834
No. If G-canon contradicts C-canon than it simply overrides it... That doesn't mean the c-canon is any less canon, after all it still is.
And Mace Windu taking out hundreds of droids by himself just using the Force isnt a huge Contradiction to what happened in AOTC?? Thats the kind of thing Chee is talking about.
Originally posted by NCRotCA
Hmm, I'm not so sure though you could possibly be correct. Perhaps I should have used different wording. Though thinking about it I still maintain that you can objectively state that something is unrealistic by simply comparing it to the real state of affairs, though it would certainly qualify as a relative term. Either way while two people can argue about what's realistic it doesn't mean that one of them can't be objectively wrong in saying it. But perhaps inconsistent would have been the better word to use?Nihilus stays, I would think. His power rather than being driven by making the gameplay or animations etc. look "cool" is actually firmly rooted, and determined, by the storyline and his very characterisation. The Force is presented as a mystical, complex, and vastly powerful thing, full of possibilities and no other work conflicts or has any real contradictory bearing on the nature of the Force and wounds in the Force etc as far as its explored in KotOR 2.
Rather than gaining his power through normal means, Nihilus gains it through his unique status of being a wound in the Force. His power is essentially inexorably linked to both his characterisation, and the plot/central idea of the story. It doesn't conflict with other canon works, and rather than being a product (to any extent) of the medium, is the full product of the story.
Luke's later showings are also fine. The son of The Chosen One, a being who's strength in the Force was off the charts, far outshone his contemporaries, and who had a truly special and unique relationship with the Force: an omnipresent, vastly powerful energy source. As the movie exposits, the likelihood is that Anakin's considerable connection with the Force would have been passed on down to his children, and given the sheer experience Luke now has under his belt it wouldn't be crazy to assume that he would have already realised a huge portion of his potential. I don't think his greater showings are unrealistic at all; I'd imagine it's the same kind of stuff we would have seen from a full potential Anakin.
Sidious's showings on the other hand occur not much later after the movies where he's established as being nowhere near as powerful as he's depicted in DE, with little to no adequate explanation given to his vast rise in power. Take into account the fact that the entire story basically contradicts George Lucas's idea of the Chosen One in the first place and I think we can safely rule out Sidious's showings from the SW canon (and the entire story for that matter).
See, all someone has to say is "I disagree" to your above argument, and your argument is shot. You cannot prove it. I don't happen to disagree, but I'm almost tempted to say so just to make my point.
Originally posted by NCRotCA
The Force is presented as a mystical, complex, and vastly powerful thing, full of possibilities and no other work conflicts or has any real contradictory bearing on the nature of the Force and wounds in the Force etc as far as its explored in KotOR 2.Rather than gaining his power through normal means, Nihilus gains it through his unique status of being a wound in the Force.
In fact the Savage Opress episode is going to show us that the Force can manifest itself in many different forms that the jedi do not use. The Dathomir witches sorcery being the example of that.
Originally posted by NCRotCA
Luke's later showings are also fine. The son of The Chosen One, a being who's strength in the Force was off the charts, far outshone his contemporaries, and who had a truly special and unique relationship with the Force:
Indeed. We know as a fact that full potential Anakin would have been far beyond anyone we saw in the PT or OT. Luke is the closest thing we will ever see to a full potential Anakin.
Originally posted by NCRotCA
Sidious's showings on the other hand occur not much later after the movies where he's established as being nowhere near as powerful as he's depicted in DE, with little to no adequate explanation given to his vast rise in power.
In fact Lucas has himself stated the Emporer never gets cloned! Dark Empire was just a kids story written before the PT and therefore before the prophecy of the chosen one who destroys the Sith was revealed.
Originally posted by truejedi
See, all someone has to say is "I disagree" to your above argument, and your argument is shot. You cannot prove it. I don't happen to disagree, but I'm almost tempted to say so just to make my point.
I think someone would have to establish how my reasoning wouldn't be the most valid usage on a case by case basis rather than simply saying that they disagree for it to be invalid.