Originally posted by NCRotCA
Sidious's showings on the other hand occur not much later after the movies where he's established as being nowhere near as powerful as he's depicted in DE, with little to no adequate explanation given to his vast rise in power. Take into account the fact that the entire story basically contradicts George Lucas's idea of the Chosen One in the first place and I think we can safely rule out Sidious's showings from the SW canon (and the entire story for that matter).
Who are you to decide what is Canon and what is not. Everything Sidious has done in DE is Canon. It was stated that he became more powerful after being reborn. Anakin did bring balance to the Force by destroying the actual Palpatine.
Originally posted by Slash_KMC
Who are you to decide what is Canon and what is not.
You do realise Lucas has said thats not his Vision of post ROTJ right?? That the Emporer never gets cloned.
You can try and make the prophecy fit into Dark Empire, but the fact is the writers of Dark Empire didnt have a clue about the prophecy when writing that.
Another noteworthy exchange between Lucas and an interviewer appeared in the May 2008 edition of Total Film magazine:
TOTAL FILM: "The Star Wars universe has expanded far beyond the movies. How much leeway do the game makers and novel writers have?"
LUCAS: "They have their own kind of world. There's three pillars of Star Wars. I'll probably get in trouble for this but it's OK! There's three pillars: the father, the son and the holy ghost. I'm the father, Howard Roffman [president of Lucas Licensing] is the son and the holy ghost is the fans, this kind of ethereal world of people coming up with all kinds of different ideas and histories. Now these three different pillars don't always match, but the movies and TV shows are all under my control and they are consistent within themselves. Howard tries to be consistent but sometimes he goes off on tangents and it's hard to hold him back. He once said to me that there are two Star Trek universes: there's the TV show and then there's all the spin-offs. He said that these were completely different and didn't have anything to do with each other. So I said, "OK, go ahead." In the early days I told them that they couldn't do anything about how Darth Vader was born, for obvious reasons, but otherwise I pretty much let them do whatever they wanted. They created this whole amazing universe that goes on for millions of years!"
TOTAL FILM: "Are you happy for new Star Wars tales to be told after you're gone?"
LUCAS: "I've left pretty explicit instructions for there not to be any more features. There will definitely be no Episodes VII-IX. That's because there isn't any story. I mean, I never thought of anything. And now there have been novels about the events after Episode VI, which isn't at all what I would have done with it. The Star Wars story is really the tragedy of Darth Vader. That is the story. Once Vader dies, he doesn't come back to life, the Emperor doesn't get cloned and Luke doesn't get married..."
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
You do realise Lucas has said thats not his Vision of post ROTJ right?? That the Emporer never gets cloned.You can try and make the prophecy fit into Dark Empire, but the fact is the writers of Dark Empire didnt have a clue about the prophecy when writing that.
Officially, those comics are Canon. It's not just completely what "he would have done", meaning it's not G-Canon.
Originally posted by Slash_KMC
Who are you to decide what is Canon and what is not. Everything Sidious has done in DE is Canon. It was stated that he became more powerful after being reborn. Anakin did bring balance to the Force by destroying the actual Palpatine.
Think not so much about who it is saying it but mroe about what they're saying. I've provided perfectly sound reasonign as to why exactly it shouldn't be considered canon. If you disagree with the reasoning, provide some of your own. Sidious stating that he became more powerful isn't a reasonable explanation for his astronomical rise in power. And George Lucas makes it quite clear that bringing balance to the Force means destroying the Sith, permanently. That Palpatine was inhabiting a different body doesn't make him any less of a Dark Lord of the Sith, as it isn't his physical form that defines him as a Sith, but who he is, i.e. his mind and spirit (memories, past experiences, actions, intentions etc.).
Originally posted by axel_jovan
Once Vader dies, he doesn't come back to life, the Emperor doesn't get cloned and Luke doesn't get married..."
Thats the quote i was thinking of which of course explains why there is contradiction between the Prophecy of the Chosen one, and DE bringing the Emporer back.
Originally posted by NCRotCA
That Palpatine was inhabiting a different body doesn't make him any less of a Dark Lord of the Sith, as it isn't his physical form that defines him as a Sith, but who he is, i.e. his mind and spirit (memories, past experiences, actions, intentions etc.).
Exactly, according to DE he didnt actually die. Doesnt matter if his flesh was destroyed. If he transfers his conciousness to a new body then he's still alive.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Thats the quote i was thinking of which of course explains why there is contradiction between the Prophecy of the Chosen one, and DE bringing the Emporer back.
^ Yeah, contradiction is apparent, but by this token whole post-RotJ EU is useless. For instance:
"Luke doesn't get married" So no hottie Mara Jade, no Ben.....
though maybe he still bangs her and has a kid 😎
Originally posted by Slash_KMC
Officially, those comics are Canon. It's not just completely what "he would have done", meaning it's not G-Canon.
Ah but where C-Canon contradicts G-Canon its nullified and no longer canon. And since the whole story of DE contradicts the Prophecy of the Chosen One by keeping the Emporer alive, then I think we can officially question whether that whole story is canon.
Especially when Lucas agrees the Emporer shuldnt be cloned.
Originally posted by axel_jovan
^ Yeah, contradiction ios apparnet but by this token whole post-RotJ EU is useless. For instance:
"Luke doesn't get married" So no hottie Mara Jade, no Ben.....
though maybe he still bangs her and has a kid 😎
Yeah thatd make Luke a lot cooler 😉 But you know that nerd would rather fall in love and get married! Lol
Neway back to the canonicity, its not how Lucas would have done it, but since Lucas is never going to make Sequel movies, he will never be overwriting it either.
But thing about DE, which makes it different to Luke marrying Mara is:
1) It Contradicts the Prophecy of the Chosen One, so directly contradicts G-Canon.
2) Sidious's power directly contradict what he was capable of in the G-Canon movie, which would make the Leeland Chee comment apply. And like NcRotCA points out theres no good reason given for the power upgrade.
3) On top of the 2 points above we also know Lucas isnt a fan of the idea of Sidious being cloned.
Whilst Luke marrying Mara doesnt seem to be a direct contradiction to G-Canon, except the fact that traditionally Jedi did not marry. However the trditional Jedi way failed miserably, which Yoda notes in the ROTS novel. So the marriage thing is plausible for the new order.
If Lucas were to ever make stories after ROTJ he might allow the Mara thing, but you know theres no way he'd accept the Sidious clone thing!
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
1) It Contradicts the Prophecy of the Chosen One, so directly contradicts G-Canon.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
2) Sidious's power directly contradict what he was capable of in the G-Canon movie, which would make the Leeland Chee comment apply. And like NcRotCA points out theres no good reason given for the power upgrade.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
3) On top of the 2 points above we also know Lucas isnt a fan of the idea of Sidious being cloned.
EDIT: I think I may be splitting hairs, but f*ck, Lucas is inconsistent.
Originally posted by axel_jovan
See, the problem is I am not 100% sure what Lucas IS saying,
is he saying that:
A) He let others write the EU and now that he sees the stories do not fit his vision he discards them (unlikely IMO).
or
B) He let others write the EU and though he says he would have done it in other way, he let it stand as it is.EDIT: I think I may be splitting hairs, but f*ck, Lucas is inconsistent.
Exactly, if Lucas didn't want the stories then he shouldn't even let it be sold in the first place. He officially approved them so they are Canon.
We've all been bitching about the Prophecy being pointless for many years. But us bitching about it doesn't change a thing.
You seem to be under the impression that the natural position is that DE remains an accurate depiction of the Star Wars Universe, when Leland Chee has told us that the only necessarily true reflection of Star Wars is the movies, despite whether the work has been officially licensed or not, or whether its of canon status. If you wish to argue that DE is a fully accurate reflection of Star wars, you will need to provide reasoning beyond the simple observation that it's a C-Canon work, and that it has the official SW name attached to it.
Who are we to discuss the canonical status of DE?
Beings of intelligence and basic competence that can use common sense to determine how likely it is that a given work fits into the true representation of Star Wars?
DE has the Star Wars license and doesn’t directly contradict anything else except for maybe that Prophecy, but you can give any kind of twist to it so it doesn’t contradict the movies. Who made the prophecy- how accurate is it, does it refer to destroying the Sith once and not forever. Lucas himself has stated that he doesn’t get too involved in the parallel universe. He also said that to him, Boba Fett died in the movies. But in the EU he considers him alive.
I wasn;t actually referring to the movie's potrayal of the prophecy but Lucas's. George Lucas has confirmed the verity of the prophecy, and stated quite clearly that it refers to one thing, and one thing only: the complete, permanent destruction of the Sith. The entire DE story completely contradicts that notion. It is not a true reflection of the Star Wars canon. Period.
Originally posted by NCRotCAExcept canon is only considered "non canon" when it contradicts Lucas' Universe, not only his word. In fact, in his interview he specifically said "In [my universe], there is no cloned Emperor."
I wasn;t actually referring to the movie's potrayal of the prophecy but Lucas's. George Lucas has confirmed the verity of the prophecy, and stated quite clearly that it refers to one thing, and one thing only: the complete, permanent destruction of the Sith. The entire DE story completely contradicts that notion. It is not a true reflection of the Star Wars canon. Period.
It's never been stated anywhere that DE isn't canon within the Expanded Universe itself, only when compared to Lucas' universe.
Originally posted by NCRotCA
You seem to be under the impression that the natural position is that DE remains an accurate depiction of the Star Wars Universe, when Leland Chee has told us that the [b]only necessarily true reflection of Star Wars is the movies, despite whether the work has been officially licensed or not, or whether its of canon status. [/B]
That seriously affects your whole series of claims as they relate to Darth Bane and Traya's (as you would interpet them) insane Force powers, seeing as how they are not a reflection of what we see in the SW movies, right?
I'm not referring to George Lucas's vague seperation of the two worlds, but the statements made by leland Chee and Chris Cherasi specifically regarding the overall SW canon, including the movies and EU. As they've both stated, the further you branch away from the movies, the more interpretation and speculation comes into play, and that the movies are the only fully accurate reflection of the state of events in the fictional reality.