Savage Opress...

Originally posted by NCRotCA
I'm not referring to George Lucas's vague seperation of the two worlds, but the statements made by leland Chee and Chris Cherasi specifically regarding the overall SW canon, including the movies and EU. As they've both stated, the further you branch away from the movies, the more interpretation and speculation comes into play, and that the movies are the only fully accurate reflection of the state of events in the fictional reality.

Yay speculation and analysis!

Either DE or kotor are canon, or neither are, but then we shouldn't discuss anything outside of the movie universe.

Firstly, let's clarify what exactly it is we see in the movies, ok? It is not the full limit or extent to which the Force can be used by anyone. It is, when you factor in the displays of effort where there are some, a tangent to the full limit or extent to which the Force can be used by the same individuals displayed in the movies. That is why, when the stuff that we see in the EU from those same individuals is so inconsistent with what we see in the movies, that the fact that we know that the EU isn't a necessarily true reflection of Star Wars becomes so damning.

Bane is not featured in the movies. He is featured in a book that is not weighed down by the need to thrills readers with dazzling imagerey and displays of action. A book that faces no technical limitations in relaying the intent of the creators into the presentation of the work. A book that's possessive of no special components that would lend to the exagerration of the work. The very story itself, from the background story and basic lore and mythology of the setting, to the present state of the story, to behind the scenes and the intentions of those adding to the Star Wars mythos, introduced the concept of the Sith'ari to us: a Sith equivalent to the Jedi's Chosen One, a being with a unique and highly significant role in the history of the Galaxy and the state of the Force, and a being who was supposed to possess power and strength and a destiny vastly greater than those around him; so great that they were described to be perfect. Bane is that special being. A being who was supposed to stand out vastly from the crowd around him. A being who wasn't supposed to sit anywhere near the norm. Taking that into account, there's absoltuely no reason we would have to look at his story or what he demonstrates as unrealistic or inconsistent with what we see in the movies.

As far as we will accept at least some degree of the Exanded Universe as an accurate reflection of the setting, every reason suggests that we accept Bane as a character and his demonstrations of power.

Traya I will address in the other thread.

Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
Oh I agree. That's why I feel that all of KOTOR is non canon and shouldn't be used in discussions. 🙂 And, since it's all wildly specutlative, meaning it's aaaalllllllll relative, then you can't prove me wrong!

Yay speculation and analysis!

You see to be under the impression that this is a subjective process when it isn't. Saying that you can disregard one source and accept another isn;t the same thing as applying reasoning as to why we should accept/disregard different sources.

If it doesn't directly contradict a higher form of canon or a more recent work of equivalent canonical status, isn't completely unrealistic with respect to higher forms of canon or the majority of works of equivalent canonical status, and the limitations and functions of the medium do not override the story that is being told, the background of the story, or what we know from behind the scenes of what's intended for the story when presenting the story, we treat the work as a fully accurate reflection of the fictional world of Star Wars, for all intents and purposes.

Until anybody is able to explain how this isn't the most logical method of revising canon that we can apply, you will have to accept it.

Originally posted by Slash_KMC
Exactly, if Lucas didn't want the stories then he shouldn't even let it be sold in the first place. He officially approved them so they are Canon.

We've all been bitching about the Prophecy being pointless for many years. But us bitching about it doesn't change a thing.

I agree. Besides, no one even knows the full story on what "bringing balance to the force" really means yet. It hasn't been fully interpreted for us. All we know is that the dark side is the imbalance. But we do not know if "bringing balance" means no more dark side ever again. And if so, then that means no new sith order (Krayt's order), no Lumiya, no Caedus, or no Exar Kun coming back as a spirit to haunt the new jedi order.

DE is still c-canon. There is no point in arguing over it. And if the comic was such a huge contradiction then it would be rendered non-canon, but it hasn't yet.

So Palpatine's force storm is still unbeatable. 😉

Originally posted by axel_jovan

I don’t think this applies, especially with Vader's, Luke's or Yoda's feats in the UE that are not seen in the movies and are far more impressive form what we see in PT or OT.

Hmm.. Lets look at those 3:

Luke was a padawan with 4 years of total training in the movies.. And we know he has the highest force potential bar anakin, so we know as a fact his powers post ROTJ will grow beyond anything we have seen in the PT or OT. In fact Lucas confirms this.

Vader didnt fight anyone truly powerful in the OT so I doubt we saw the full extent of his powers in the movies. But we do know he was approx 80% of Sidious as of the OT, so Probably almost as powerful in the Force as ROTS Sidious, so as long as he doesnt do anything clearly beyond throwing multiple senate pods simultaneously with seeming ease, its all good. If he does do something that clearly seems beyond that, then we may have to be critical of the feat.

Same with Yoda. If he does stuff in the eu around the time of the PT/OT which seems clearly above what he was capable of in the movies, then yeah we should probably be critical of those feats. On the other hand if he does stuff 200 years earlier it would be a good assumption he would be younger and more powerful, so Im guessing a reasonable margin of inconsistency to the movie Yoda should be allowed.

Originally posted by axel_jovan
See, the problem is I am not 100% sure what Lucas IS saying,
is he saying that:
A) He let others write the EU and now that he sees the stories do not fit his vision he discards them (unlikely IMO).
or
B) He let others write the EU and though he says he would have done it in other way, he let it stand as it is.

Well theres 2 Universes. His and the EU. But He owns the EU and takes what he likes and ignores what he doesnt like for "his universe". But his Universe is the source material for the Expanded Universe, so when he does contradict stuff from the EU, then that EU stuff becomes obselete. On the other hand since he steals stuff he likes from the EU, we can assume that unless he and his Universe objects to anything in the EU we can certainly accept whats there as part of his universe.

Originally posted by axel_jovan
EDIT: I think I may be splitting hairs, but f*ck, Lucas is inconsistent.

Tell me about it. Im talking seriously about 2 Parallel Universes.

But to be fair, its other authors visions which are sometimes inconsistent with his vision. He shouldnt Have To accept everything any of them write.

Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
That seriously affects your whole series of claims as they relate to Darth Bane and Traya's (as you would interpet them) insane Force powers, seeing as how they are not a reflection of what we see in the SW movies, right?

I dnt knw about Traya, but Lucas created Bane and his back story. So I would guess he would have given the authors of the Bane books some kind of idea of how powerful he is. Im guessing.

And to be fair that story is the basis of the Sith cult/religion the movies are all about.

Still going on with this shit...

You people are all queers.

Originally posted by NCRotCA

I wasn;t actually referring to the movie's potrayal of the prophecy but Lucas's. George Lucas has confirmed the verity of the prophecy, and stated quite clearly that it refers to one thing, and one thing only: the complete, permanent destruction of the Sith. The entire DE story completely contradicts that notion. It is not a true reflection of the Star Wars canon. Period.

if this is true, than everything after ROTS is non-canon, and that's not even worth discussing. No one is going to accept such a claim.

KOTOR is obviously non-canon. As is Bane... I mean, being able to manipulate the force at a SUB-ATOMIC level?!?!?! that's freaking exaggerated shit right there, or nothing is!!! SUB-ATOMIC. OMIGAWD.

Don't forget riding through space on a pterodactyl....

"Space-Terrosaur, terrorize!"

is rex really never coming back to kill Neb? Because that means Neb wins in the end.

I think in his heart, Rex is still in love with the Shire knew he always would. There's just no defeating someone that determined to impress their useless presence on people.

plus rex apparently only loved Gideon... we are all saying bad words and everything.. Order has given way to chaos.

Originally posted by NCRotCA
If it doesn't directly contradict a higher form of canon or a more recent work of equivalent canonical status, isn't completely unrealistic with respect to higher forms of canon or the majority of works of equivalent canonical status, and the limitations and functions of the medium do not override the story that is being told, the background of the story, or what we know from behind the scenes of what's intended for the story when presenting the story, we treat the work as a fully accurate reflection of the fictional world of Star Wars, for all intents and purposes.

Until anybody is able to explain how this isn't the most logical method of revising canon that we can apply, you will have to accept it.

This. Seriously, this has been our rule for years and this is what it should remain.

Also,

I wasn;t actually referring to the movie's potrayal of the prophecy but Lucas's. George Lucas has confirmed the verity of the prophecy, and stated quite clearly that it refers to one thing, and one thing only: the complete, permanent destruction of the Sith. The entire DE story completely contradicts that notion. It is not a true reflection of the Star Wars canon. Period.

This is a pretty good argument to render DE non-canon. I hate to ride Nebs coattails, especially now that he's once again been slain, but I thinkhe may have you beat on this one.

Originally posted by truejedi
if this is true, than everything after ROTS is non-canon, and that's not even worth discussing. No one is going to accept such a claim.

No just DE

Originally posted by truejedi
KOTOR is obviously non-canon. As is Bane... I mean, being able to manipulate the force at a SUB-ATOMIC level?!?!?! that's freaking exaggerated shit right there, or nothing is!!! SUB-ATOMIC. OMIGAWD.

I wuldnt call manipulating the Force on a sub atomic level exaggerated considering we were told in ROTS that Darh Plageus could manipulate midichlorins to create life.

Bane cant be non-canon. His character and back story were created by Lucas.

Originally posted by Nephthys

This is a pretty good argument to render DE non-canon. I hate to ride Nebs coattails, especially now that he's once again been slain, but I thinkhe may have you beat on this one.

Actually its a terrible argument here DS. Think about it. If the reason DE is non canon is because the prophecy failed to bring about the complete destruction of the sith, then Legacy is non-canon. (Sith) FOTJ is non-canon (Sith) Lumiya is non canon (Sith) Caedus is non-canon (Sith).

I'm seriously confused as to why you thought that was a good argument. Can you explain?