Originally posted by Sadako of GirthAnd again I ask how does this help Sidious? Snape'll be long gone before Sidious can attack.
🙄I'll wait for you to re-read my post then your post and for the penny to drop.
No.... still not dropped? Right. I shall explain:
Precog>>something thats instant cause 'that instant' is preseen...!
Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
ALSO Precog allows Palps to pip the wizard to the post regardless of how instant he can apparate normally. And Headless wiazards can't apparate.
God. This is so hilariously illogical in so many ways...
a)
Since when is precognition fail-safe, huh?
I don't know about you, but I've seen a lot of Jedi getting killed in RotS by surprise attacks, which shouldn't happen, because of their hyper cool precog saving the day, right? And even if you want to assume that this just happens because they didn't focus on their precog in that very moments - how do you explain people getting killed in lightsaber duels, if they could forsee any move of their opponent?
The answer is simple: Precognition can receive an overload. This is described in the novel "Darth Bane: Path of Destruction", where the sheer number of possible movements that Kas'im could use, is on the brink of overpowering Bane's precog. The point is: The more option for a next move the opponent has, the less precise the move can be predicted.
The crux? HP Wizards can apparete to wherever they want in an instant. If you've seen "Goblet of Fire", you can see Voldemort calling his Death Eaters, who appear on the spot five seconds later (with their Death Eater masks and cloaks on, which they didn't wear casually). So how would anybody predict that they could disappear (that requires previous knowledge) and, even less likely, how they will reappear in the next moment? This is, virtually, impossible through the limitations of precog.
b)
Do force users think faster than average humans? No? Then how is Sidious going to cut Snape's head off?
In the same instance that Sidious thinks about doing so, Snape is aware of that plan due to Legilimency (it doesn't require any casting - Snape and Voldemort both use it "on the fly"😉 and can simply evade that event via apparition or the famous half-apparition-flight from the movies. Or he makes Sidious lightsaber disappear. Or he summons a brick wall half way between him and the Sith Lord or snipes Sidious with a killing curse. He could even turn the damn ground into a giant portkey and watch Sidious being teleported into the next sun.
There is no way that a force user is going to survive a duel with a sufficient powerful Wizard. Why? Because magic is a damn plot-device that can be used to do anything. I mean what: Voldemort managed to curse the DADA position in Hogwarts (huh?) and he was also able to tie "tracking spell" to the event of his name being spoken (WTF?). And we've seen those people playing games with space-time (tents at the Quidditch World Cup anybody? Time-turners?). Yet people here seem to think that the limitations of HP magic are those nicely colored energy beams being flung around.
Which isn't the case.
Even sticking to the ordinary spells: The Imperius Curse does neither create a visible effect, nor has it to be aimed on a target specifically. Having a look at "Order of the Phoenix", Lucius Malfoy uses the spell on a person hidden under an invisibility cloak by waving his wand in the general direction. How does a force user (Sidious in this case) evade that kind of spell?
If it fails its not true precognition, by very definition.
You those Jedi getting killed as the bias of the force turned to the Darkside in the 3 or so years of AOTC and ROTS.
You also saw sith getting side blinded when the force swung back towards the light and then balance in the 3 yr, 6 month period that ANH, ESB, ROTJ were set in.
We cant regard EU here.
Yes. They do when opening there minds and claering it of conflicting thought, letting go and letting the force guide their actions.
Who knows what a particular Jedi's perception of time is like...
Weve all had that time slowing.speeding up thing happen when distracted, or when waiting for a kettle to boil or whatever...
I see. This is true.
This is also why when confronted with bankable power like SW, it comes up short. But RJ tried to say that that was how Spells worked when trying to outrageously justify some very unlikely speculations on his part, I think.
Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
If it fails its not true precognition, by very definition.
And see. This is happening constantly through the SW saga...
You those Jedi getting killed as the bias of the force turned to the Darkside in the 3 or so years of AOTC and ROTS.You also saw sith getting side blinded when the force swung back towards the light and then balance in the 3 yr, 6 month period that ANH, ESB, ROTJ were set in.
We cant regard EU here.
I also saw Mace Windu defeating Sidious, which the guy benefiting from the "bias of the force" didn't see coming, right? Much like the same guy was caught off-guard by a force push from Yoda and got thrown threw his office. He also didn't see that one coming, right? Dooku didn't see it coming, when Anakin was about to behead him. He also didn't see it coming that Yoda would defeat him in their duel in AotC.
There is, de facto, so many stuff that they didn't see coming that one has to question the effects of their precognition.
Yes. They do when opening there minds and claering it of conflicting thought, letting go and letting the force guide their actions.
And you surely have proof for this speculation, right? Oh. Wait. It wouldn't matter, even if you were correct (and you aren't. Trust me.), because Sidious is a Sith and those people don't let the force control their actions.
Who knows what a particular Jedi's perception of time is like...
Weve all had that time slowing.speeding up thing happen when distracted, or when waiting for a kettle to boil or whatever...
We're not discussing individual perception of time here, but real time passing.
I see. This is true.
This is also why when confronted with bankable power like SW, it comes up short. But RJ tried to say that that was how Spells worked when trying to outrageously justify some very unlikely speculations on his part, I think.
No. This doesn't mean it "comes up short". It means that you have to put some thought into the attempt of debating it, instead of proclaiming that somebody will simply fling his lightsaber to cut some vital body parts off a Wizard.
Snape wins this, and the only question that can be asked here is "How?"
Originally posted by Borbarad
1. And see. This is happening constantly through the SW saga...[b]2. I
also saw Mace Windu defeating Sidious, which the guy benefiting from the "bias of the force" didn't see coming, right? Much like the same guy was caught off-guard by a force push from Yoda and got thrown threw his office. He also didn't see that one coming, right? Dooku didn't see it coming, when Anakin was about to behead him. He also didn't see it coming that Yoda would defeat him in their duel in AotC.3) There is, de facto, so many stuff that they didn't see coming that one has to question the effects of their precognition.
4) And you surely have proof for this speculation, right? Oh. Wait. It wouldn't matter, even if you were correct (and you aren't. Trust me.), because Sidious is a Sith and those people don't let the force control their actions.
5) We're not discussing individual perception of time here, but real time passing.
6) No. This doesn't mean it "comes up short". It means that you have to put some thought into the attempt of debating it, instead of proclaiming that somebody will simply fling his lightsaber to cut some vital body parts off a Wizard.
Snape wins this, and the only question that can be asked here is "How?" [/B]
1: Then those were only instances where precog didnt work at that time or it wasnt the will of the living force that that happen: Plus PIS,CIS. Obvious really.
2: Mace didn't defeat him. Palpatine knew everything that was about to happen. He timed his "loss" to Mace well in order that Anakin arrive exactly then and would be forced to make a decision to flip to the Darkside. Did you not see him obviously play acting? Check his scheming playacting ass ways laid bare in the moments when Ankin is arguing with Palps and his is feigning total victimhood and weakness...JUST BEFORE he blasts Mace out of the window with a massive raging torrent of unlimited power.
"Everything that has transpired has done so according to my design" and all that.
3: Well Its how and what Obi-wan taught Luke, So I guess that makes me Right, dont it.. Screen feats. 🙂
Now where is your proof that HP magic could even affect a Jedi...?
Oh thats right: You're speculating. See? That gets us nowhere.
4: Fair play. Well in that case explain that fast assed running that goes on way fast relative to all other motions on screen that we seen the Jedi do in the beginning of TPM.
5: LOL If you'd read the thread at all, you'd see that that headtrimming with the sabre was valid back in the first 6 or so pages.
Still valid now, since it was not disproved. So yeah. How does a headless wizard win exactly?
Seriously dude, Vader was born from the force, if anybodys Precog is strong enough, Its Vader's. Hes not gonna get so distracted with Padme shit here.
Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
1: Then those were only instances where precog didnt work at that time or it wasnt the will of the living force that that happen: Plus PIS,CIS. Obvious really.
Oh. That is obvious. Care to list the instances in which precog did work as intented. I can name only two. The scene in "The Phantom Menace" in which Qui-Gon demonstrates the effect of precognition and the scene in "A new hope" where Obi-Wan teaches Luke how to deflect blaster fire with a lightsaber. After that, it comes down as randomly working or not, dependant on what course the story should take. So it's nothing but a cheap ass plot device that might or might not work at all. Which simply disqualifies it from being a working assumption for a Jedi in a combat situation.
Even if we would ignore that, the fact that Jedi and Sith are getting killed is a testament for the fact that precognition isn't fail safe, especially when some unpredictable events are involved.
2: Mace didn't defeat him. Palpatine knew everything that was about to happen. He timed his "loss" to Mace well in order that Anakin arrive exactly then and would be forced to make a decision to flip to the Darkside. Did you not see him obviously play acting? Check his scheming playacting ass ways laid bare in the moments when Ankin is arguing with Palps and his is feigning total victimhood and weakness...JUST BEFORE he blasts Mace out of the window with a massive raging torrent of unlimited power.
"Everything that has transpired has done so according to my design" and all that.
The "Revenge of the Sith" DVD commentary has George Lucas himself proclaiming that Mace overpowered Sidious. Since I trust the creator of the story more than your personal interpretation, Mace did defeat Sidious fair and square. This isn't up for debate.
3: Well Its how and what Obi-wan taught Luke, So I guess that makes me Right, dont it.. Screen feats. 🙂
Now where is your proof that HP magic could even affect a Jedi...?
Oh thats right: You're speculating. See? That gets us nowhere.
For the first part: See above.
For the second part: Boy. You don't want to walk down that road with me. Do you really want to present proof if the force or lightsabers would work on HP Wizards? I can't imagine how that should work. And it kind of undermines the idea of a VS forum. If that's all you can come up with, please go troll elsewhere.
4: Fair play. Well in that case explain that fast assed running that goes on way fast relative to all other motions on screen that we seen the Jedi do in the beginning of TPM.
Apparently, you still haven't gotten the concept. Luke Skywalker has described that as "burst of speed" (The Essential Guide through the Force) and, indeed, he perceived anything in slow motion. Yet that doesn't matter because that state is not maintained constantly and no matter how slow you perceive time, an act happening "instantious" would still happen, regardless on how fast you perceive it. That means, for our special case, that Snape would still be gone before Sidious could cut his head off.
5: LOL If you'd read the thread at all, you'd see that that headtrimming with the sabre was valid back in the first 6 or so pages.
Still valid now, since it was not disproved. So yeah. How does a headless wizard win exactly?
Gosh. Do you have some severe problems with your reading comprehension? I just disproved the "cut head off" scenario - you can't stand it and go "LOL". You aren't the brightes candle in the chandelier, right?
Seriously dude, Vader was born from the force, if anybodys Precog is strong enough, Its Vader's. Hes not gonna get so distracted with Padme shit here.
Right. Luckily, he isn't even part of this fight here, which - checks topic once again - is between Snape and Sidious. Do you read "Vader" anywhere, because I can't see his name. Maybe because it isn't there which kind of turns your comment into a pointless rant. Seriously, dude, make some use of whatever nature has stuffed between your ears before hitting the reply button.
Yes Im aware of that quote. And I'd believe it all except for that fact that Palpatine actually overpowered Mace's ass right out of that window.
This directly contravenes what Lucas said.
Wizards are carbon based flesh/humans. What happens to all carbon based flesh/human limbs/bodyparts impacted with a lightsabre?
We understand the method of destruction involved with a lightsabre.
It can be predicted.
Gosh have we lost our ability to debate without aggressive E-cock posturing? You disproved nothing: hence your current stance, i guess..
Yes (Slow clap) I cross threaded. Doh. And you spotted it. Clever old you. And Palpatine's Precog is even above Vaders it would seem, anyway, so it matters not. 🙂