Originally posted by RE: Blaxican
What you guys fail to realize is that the whole universe is completely relative and everything is a matter of perspective or "a certain point of view", therefore, Q'Anillia is 100% right.As are all of you.
/thread 313
**** that
I havent worked for 6 god damned years just to find out that perception really is reality
All Atheists I know who aren't interested in such debates into their 20's and 30's refuse to outright acknowledge the idea. So no they aren't.
But it depends on intelligence amongst them. Most I know are smart folks who live moral yet playful lives and don't perform criminal acts against others.
The dumber ones tend to be thugs or opportunists and refuse to believe in a higher force because they're so far into their criminal intent that they are empowered by it.
The "We are just flesh so lets rape the Earth" mentality.
I'm a dreamer and an imaginaut so I believe in a universal judgement, deeper than words can describe.
One where murderers can be wise and devoted followers can be unbeknownst.....demons.
Originally posted by inimalist
what sensory organ would you suggest is tuned to divine presence?
The soul, of course. The mind in some cases, I suppose. For all we know, spirituality could be simply some subtle chemical reaction in the brain (Or a subconscious thing).
Originally posted by inimalist
what biological difference are you positing between people who experience this presense than between those who do not?
Tricky thing to answer. I haven't put much thought into it, so I can't give you a good answer.
Originally posted by Q'Anilia
The soul, of course. The mind in some cases, I suppose.
The mind, as it is conceptualized in Western dualism, is essentially mythical. I can't speak much to the soul, other than to say it isn't responsible for the vast majority of things we would commonly associate with individual personality or behaviour (these all have materialistic explanations) and there is absolutly no evidence for its ability to communicate with the biological self in such a way that the soul feeling something would be able to transfer that to the physical mind/body.
Originally posted by Q'Anilia
Tricky thing to answer. I haven't put much thought into it, so I can't give you a good answer.
fair enough. Any idea where the soul communicates with the physical body? is that what the appendix does then?
Originally posted by Quiero Motapersonally i don't feel 100% confident that there is no god.. but if there is a god i don't fear it because i do feel 100% confident that judaism, christianity and islam are all false. the jewish scripture reveals the tribal nature of their god, and the christian narrative makes even less sense since the jews spent the whole time proclaiming there's one solitary god who tolerates absolutely no competition, and suddenly christ comes along and now there is one god but he exists through 3 distinct yet identical entities so now jesus is the son of god but jesus also is god and the holy spirit is god oh did we not mention that before? and islam... no comment.
The whole Santa/God comparison is a card that Atheists try to play a lot. But its faulty. One can take a trip to the North Pole or install a camera in their living room on Xmas Eve and disprove Santa's existence. But you can't commit suicide and then immediately come back and say "A-ha! There is a (or no) god!".The thread-starter basically wants to know why and how Atheists decided to believe what they do; I do too. Its usually informative and revealing (and sometimes entertaining and embarrassing) to hear how they arrived at their current destination.
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"Complacency" seems to be the right word, because it means "secure", "confident" and "being satisfied with one's current state". Atheists are often all of those things...or at least they appear to be and project themselves that way when talking with theists. I have no doubt that there are some dogged, unshakingly confident Atheists out there who 'know' there's no god. But many more have a lingering fear/doubt somewhere in the back of their minds.
And just FYI: I'm not just sitting here talking out of my ass. I've known and spoken with enough Atheists in my 40-plus years to know what I'm talking about and to make a reliable observation. You can take that to the bank.
Originally posted by inimalist
what sensory organ would you suggest is tuned to divine presence?what biological difference are you positing between people who experience this presense than between those who do not?
Organ?
And those who wish to find the "Presence" is in their Intent to find it.
I've experienced phenomenons when I intended to open myself to infinite possibilities. And also when I didn't.
Originally posted by the ninjak
Organ?
means for which the information from the divine would be transmitted into a personal perception, like the receptors in the eyes, skin, ears, tongue and nose.
Originally posted by the ninjak
And those who wish to find the "Presence" is in their Intent to find it.
I've experienced phenomenons when I intended to open myself to infinite possibilities.
theses phenomena are much better explained through materialistic neuroscience than any type of spirutalism.
Originally posted by inimalist
means for which the information from the divine would be transmitted into a personal perception, like the receptors in the eyes, skin, ears, tongue and nose.
All of those things attribute to the whole. Tools in which we perceive. A blind man can achieve it. The Deaf as well. Toltec Indians believe in Chakras, guidance points in which we harness the universe around us. One must ponder all possibilities.
Originally posted by inimalist
theses phenomena are much better explained through materialistic neuroscience than any type of spirutalism.
True but don't downplay Spiritualism. Neuroscience is but a tool to understanding how our brain works yet our brain is a poem...a key, a gift to having an idea of a higher force.
I've been judged before by wiser forces that made me aware that my thought processes were leaning towards a negative side when I was certain I was walking a correct path. Through dreams and OBE's.
Was it just my brain....maybe.
A higher power communicating with me....maybe.
Some of the greatest Scientific Acheivements derived from looking at the world around us and having an appifany that resulted in the acheivement.
Originally posted by inimalist
fair enough. Any idea where the soul communicates with the physical body? is that what the appendix does then?
That question bring us back to the demonstrably untrue statement of mine, that spirituality is another sense. That makes the sense of sight, of smell, of touch, of hearing, of taste, of spirituality.
You feel it. Doesn't have to be more complicated an answer than that (Although I did try to explain it far better, but I just don't know how I'd phrase it)
Originally posted by Q'Anilia
For all we know, spirituality could be simply some subtle chemical reaction in the brain (Or a subconscious thing).
Psychologists have found ways to artificially produce "out of body" and "religious" experiences. They're clearly phenomenon that can be explained by the working of the brain.
Originally posted by Q'Anilia
That question bring us back to the demonstrably untrue statement of mine, that spirituality is another sense. That makes the sense of sight, of smell, of touch, of hearing, of taste, of spirituality.You feel it. Doesn't have to be more complicated an answer than that (Although I did try to explain it far better, but I just don't know how I'd phrase it)
yes, but all of those senses have a significant amount of cortical tissue devoted to them, whereas there is none which we can point to being involved in spirtual experiences. Areas commonly associated with spirituality are also those that are associated with personal significance and emotional experiences, normally in the temporal lobe.
what I am saying is, if there is really any divine presense that is not simply a matter of abnormal psychological processes, there would need to be some fairly easily recognizable biological mechanism through which the divine becomes physical in the experience of the individual.
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Psychologists have found ways to artificially produce "out of body" and "religious" experiences. They're clearly phenomenon that can be explained by the working of the brain.
I'm not denying that spiritual experiences might very possibly be nothing more than the workings of the human brain. That doesn't make the experience any less true, though, nor does the possibility of it being so exclude the possibility of it not being so.
Originally posted by inimalist
what I am saying is, if there is really any divine presense that is not simply a matter of abnormal psychological processes, there would need to be some fairly easily recognizable biological mechanism through which the divine becomes physical in the experience of the individual.
That's true, if the soul is nothing more than another piece of the body or if it communicate in a biological fashion. It doesn't necessarily have to, though.
Today we have the means of reading brain activity, but we can't read ones thoughts, for example. What's to say there ain't spiritual communication going on, not unlike how thoughts do, but not necessarily in the brain.
If the soul communicate with a spiritual aspect of your body, or a spiritual section of your mind, we maybe just haven't gotten the tools yet to detect this. We can't know exactly what's going on inside the body of a human being, because we can't read everything: Thoughts being the prime example.
Originally posted by Q'Anilia
I'm not denying that spiritual experiences might very possibly be nothing more than the workings of the human brain. That doesn't make the experience any less true, though, nor does the possibility of it being so exclude the possibility of it not being so.
It does mean that crediting it to the supernatural is inaccurate, unless you apply the post-modern "idea" of reality itself being completely subjective.
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
It does mean that crediting it to the supernatural is inaccurate, unless you apply the post-modern "idea" of reality itself being completely subjective.
I believe reality is subjective. I most certainly believe that one thing can be true for one, but false for another. That aside, I credit the supernatural because it makes sense to me.
Originally posted by Q'Anilia
That's true, if the soul is nothing more than another piece of the body or if it communicate in a biological fashion. It doesn't necessarily have to, though.
however, if you are arguing that people can physically "feel" the presence of an entity, it does, at some point, have to be a physical reaction in the body. Whatever happens between the divine and the soul, sure, whatever, but as soon as it is something percieved by a human, we are talking about physical processes in the body and mind.
Originally posted by Q'Anilia
Today we have the means of reading brain activity, but we can't read ones thoughts, for example. What's to say there ain't spiritual communication going on, not unlike how thoughts do, but not necessarily in the brain.
1) the distinction between neurological activations and "thoughts" is one I'd like you to expand on. I think that dichotomy is entirely illusory
2) you are incorrect anyways. With proper mathematical analysis, we have been able to, in fact, interpret images from neurological activation in the visual cortex, among many other experiments that show the neuroimaging of specific thoughts.
Further, you aren't talking about some distributed network of semantic, abstract meaning and association, like memory, you are talking about a sensory network, which tend to be the most well understood parts of the brain. IF there were a place where the brain was truly recieving information from some divine source, we would, at the very least, have huge portions of neuroarchitecture which could be interpreted in that way, which there is not.
Originally posted by Q'Anilia
If the soul communicate with a spiritual aspect of your body, or a spiritual section of your mind, we maybe just haven't gotten the tools yet to detect this. We can't know exactly what's going on inside the body of a human being, because we can't read everything: Thoughts being the prime example.
so, literally, just a god-of-the-gaps argument?
Originally posted by Q'Anilia
I believe reality is subjective.
but surely you don't think someone's subjective perceptions are akin to some objective reality, ie, even if something is true-to-me, it is not necessarily true in any other perspective other than my own, including (especially) in any objective sense.
If you say so.
All I'm doing is trying to please your curiosity, then if you decide to disassemble it and throw science around is up to you. I know what I believe in, and it makes sense to me. If it doesn't to you, then that's not really my loss, now is it? You can probably explain most things in my world with science, if not all. That doesn't mean I'm wrong, just that you maybe aren't.
Originally posted by inimalist
so, literally, just a god-of-the-gaps argument?
I don't get this. Could you elaborate, perhaps?
Originally posted by inimalist
but surely you don't think someone's subjective perceptions are akin to some objective reality, ie, even if something is true-to-me, it is not necessarily true in any other perspective other than my own, including (especially) in any objective sense.
I don't believe the world we see is subjective. I don't believe science is wrong (In this sense). I do however believe that spirituality can be subjective, that faith is subjective. I also believe there's more to this world than what we see, than what we explain.
I'm not sure I get what you mean, or what I meant with that, but perhaps you can make sense of it. Either way, note that I'm not here to convince or be convinced. My mind is set, because I feel the things I feel. Even could it all be proven as science, I probably still would believe.
Originally posted by inimalist
however, if you are arguing that people can physically "feel" the presence of an entity, it does, at some point, have to be a physical reaction in the body. Whatever happens between the divine and the soul, sure, whatever, but as soon as it is something percieved by a human, we are talking about physical processes in the body and mind.
That's a good point.
If I were hooked up to a PET scanner when I received answers to my prayers, what would activate in my brain? I've received very few answers to prayers but when I did receive answers, the voice was as clear as a conversation and it was a bit startling. But that should easily be seen on a PET scan.
The problem: how are we supposed to detect something like that when it occurs so few and far between?
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Then there's no point in having a conversation with you.
That's pretty much how it is with everyone, though: reality is almost purely subjective to the subjectie interpretations of others. We can create rules that make things objective but only within those constructs.
Originally posted by dadudemon
That's pretty much how it is with everyone, though: reality is almost purely subjective to the subjectie interpretations of others. We can create rules that make things objective but only within those constructs.
Yes our views of the world are all subjective. However that just means reality is filtered on the way to your mind. If someone accept that reality itself is subjective then they can never be convinced of anything, to that person there are no rules that the universe plays by, producing evidence is impossible. It's just a colorful sort of nihilism.