Are atheists afraid of judgement?

Originally posted by Newjak
The problem is that most of these insanely powerful beings can break the laws of physics as we know them to point where it doesn't make sense.

They can casually go through time, go faster than light, or just create matter from nothing in some cases.

Of course the simple explanation I guess would be that their universe is governed by different physical laws than our own. Or the there is the tried and true method of explaining all of it as science we do not understand yet.

Then what's the Source Wall and the powers beyond it and behind its creation?

If T thinks God is ultimately scientifically understandable, cool. But the DC multiverse can pretty clearly be proven to have an ultimate creator, yeah? Saying you're an atheist seems a little backward to me at that point. He can claim a defensible position through some clarification and careful selection of ideas, I agree, but the term atheist at that point means something entirely different than it does in common usage and should not be used.

T's atheism is irrational in that sense, imo. Its presence in the DCU is to keep the diversity quota.

Originally posted by Digi
Then what's the Source Wall and the powers beyond it and behind its creation?

If T thinks God is ultimately scientifically understandable, cool. But the DC multiverse can pretty clearly be proven to have an ultimate creator, yeah? Saying you're an atheist seems a little backward to me at that point. He can claim a defensible position through some clarification and careful selection of ideas, I agree, but the term atheist at that point means something entirely different than it does in common usage and should not be used.

T's atheism is irrational in that sense, imo. Its presence in the DCU is to keep the diversity quota.

Now, as a bastion of skeptical inquiry and critical thought, T is a great character. He doesn't let others take shortcuts when they don't understand something. In that sense, I love his approach to knowledge. Just not that specific application of it.

Originally posted by Digi
Then what's the Source Wall and the powers beyond it and behind its creation?

A barrier beyond which is another dimension- note I don't think Terrific's ever been to the Source Wall, and I'll note it is mysterious even to the New Gods.

The Source stuff is also highly tied to the New Gods, who very obviously use highly advanced science aside from being classed as 'gods.' So, yea.

Originally posted by Digi
Then what's the Source Wall and the powers beyond it and behind its creation?

If T thinks God is ultimately scientifically understandable, cool. But the DC multiverse can pretty clearly be proven to have an ultimate creator, yeah? Saying you're an atheist seems a little backward to me at that point. He can claim a defensible position through some clarification and careful selection of ideas, I agree, but the term atheist at that point means something entirely different than it does in common usage and should not be used.

T's atheism is irrational in that sense, imo. Its presence in the DCU is to keep the diversity quota.

But you gotta agree that T is into something since he's technically right. He was created not by a god, but by some writers with tools and pencils in an universe that has no leads towards a higher divinity.

Sure, it all boils down to something more akin to faith than reason in his case (as evidence gives all kinds of weird results, I mean, his frigging universe retcons left and right, if it was seen by the outside the universe being an "idea" or a "story" would actually be a cohesive reading of what's happening, but that kind of proof can never be conclusive). We could have fun with arguments such as "if realities can be simulated, then there are more simulated realities than actual realities", since T knows factually that realities can be simulated, he could lean towards some notion of his universe being fiction. So well, as you said, the universe is bonkers and so inconsistent that the notion of proof making any scientifical validity is iffy at best, nonsensical at worse.

T should still get points for figuring out the impossible from the unlikely.

This thread has gone in a pleasing direction. I'm at work or I'd likely add more, but it's a fun intellectual exercise, even though we're dealing with a fictional reality.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Your question was bad. There is no connection between atheism and the fear of Judgment. I can imagine there are a lot of atheists that are judged because of their "belief" everyday. If they were afraid of judgment, wouldn't they stay a Christian? Then they wouldn't be judged by their family and friends for being atheist.

Any disdain I may appear to show in my posts is not for my fellow posters but rather for the fact that the more of an intellectual a person is, it seems the more likely they are to claim atheism as their belief on organized religion. The reason this is so surprising to me is that there seems to be way more empirical evidence that a supreme and infinite power exists than evidence that this is not the case.

Religious bias shouldn't interfere with the examination of the evidence presented, when it has been examined by those who claim to have no affiliation with a religious group, but some sort of bias appears to influence atheists to dismiss and ignore evidence in the same way religious zealots do.

Whenever I see evidence ignored I start looking for the reasons and that's how this thread began a long time ago. It's not that I'm at the same place I was when I started the thread, it's simply that I've yet to discover the rationale for dismissing scientific evidence that suggests that a creator exists.

edit
Another misconception is that I'm secretly trolling...this is the internet so that doesn't have to be done secretly, I'm genuinely enjoying a discussion with people whose intellect I respect.

Um so what evidence do you feel there is that there is some infinite power out there? Please don't answer with "the universe is so complex".

Genuinely enjoying an intellectual discussion isn't trolling, but cool I guess.

Mister, I think the main point of contention is that there is scientific evidence of a creature existing. It's not that people ignore that, it's that they disagree that such evidence exists.

So what are we talking about? NDEs? Fine-tuned universe? I've heard most of it, and found such claims utterly lacking. I respect your right to hold your beliefs, but please just don't assume atheists believe one thing when they tell you another. Most of the antagonism leveled at you thus far stems from that habit.

Originally posted by The MISTER
I'm a christian who believes in the Bible and it's command not to judge others ...

I'm not so sure that passage means what you think it does.
If ever there was a Bible verse taken out of context and wrongfully used as a weapon ...

Please read the following, noting that while I do NOT endorse everything the author has to say here, I DO think he makes some good points:

http://www.jasonstaples.com/bible/misinterpreted/misinterpreted-bible-passages-3-judge-not-lest-you-be-judged/

Originally posted by Digi

... please just don't assume atheists believe one thing when they tell you another. Most of the antagonism leveled at you thus far stems from that habit.

If Stephen Covey is to be believed, and I have very little reason to believe he isn't, one of the greatest human longings is simply to be understood.

Certainly I recognize that it can be very frustrating to try to relate something to someone and have your explanation rejected and told what you "actually" think.

In regards to this specific subject, however, noteworthy complications present:

There are many groups noted for having lies and deception as a CREED that identify as atheist. Foremost among them, perhaps, would be the Laveyan groups of Satanists. They will tell you point blank that they do not believe in Satan as a real being, or indeed, anything supernatural. Which is a problem for obvious reasons: If Satan WERE a real being, or IS a real being, then, wouldn't that be EXACTLY what a Satan worshipper "SHOULD" be telling you?

So, atheists include liars in their number.
Practically by definition.

Couldn't be otherwise, given the sheer number of people who claim to be atheists.

Which brings up another point, already voiced by others.

Atheists are not, necessarily, one homogeneous being.

Some may reject God after having been raised in some Abrahamic religion.
Some may be atheist simply because they have never HEARD of God.
They've never been presented with a deity TO reject.

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My computer's been unreliable today.

I'm going to rush an answer before it cuts out.

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Some atheists, or at least some who identify themselves as atheists, ARE afraid of judgement. I think this is far likelier in atheists with a heavy religious background than in those that have had little exposure to religion.
Yes, I firmly believes that includes some of the people who have posted in this thread.
However, as mentioned before, I think a lot of people are "atheist" as described in this thread, more or less by default. They've never really heard of God, and don't even know that there IS a judgement regarding God. They're not afraid of judgement because they're unfamiliar with the concept altogether.

I think a surprising number of people belong in this category.
And I think that number is getting larger and larger as the years go by.

Oh, yeah:

While I'm thinking of it, a click-able LINK (as opposed to URL)
for the "Judge Not" post written a message or two ago:

http://www.jasonstaples.com/bible/misinterpreted/misinterpreted-bible-passages-3-judge-not-lest-you-be-judged/

Well I'm sorry, but what you think is wrong. Born and raised Catholic, was sent to Catholic grammar school and a Catholic High School.

I am not afraid of judgement and it isn't just because I don't believe. It is because the biblical God is a sack of shit who has no right to be judging even the worst humans. It would be like someone being afraid of Star thinking they were a religious nutjob. Or being worried a 1,000 lb man thinks you are fat.

If real? God just doesn't deserve fear. I wouldn't give the prick the satisfaction.

Originally posted by Surtur
Well I'm sorry, but what you think is wrong. Born and raised Catholic, was sent to Catholic grammar school and a Catholic High School.

I am not afraid of judgement and it isn't just because I don't believe. It is because the biblical God is a sack of shit who has no right to be judging even the worst humans. It would be like someone being afraid of Star thinking they were a religious nutjob. Or being worried a 1,000 lb man thinks you are fat.

If real? God just doesn't deserve fear. I wouldn't give the prick the satisfaction.

lol, metal.

But seriously most people have been exposed to some form of Christianity at some point in their life. At least in this country anyways. It is really not about a lack of knowledge about God if they decide they don't believe in him or fear him.

Plus people more or less force their kids into this religion. That to me is wrong. It's not just that specific religion that does it, but I just find something a bit disturbing about coaxing a child into certain spiritual beliefs.

Originally posted by Surtur
But seriously most people have been exposed to some form of Christianity at some point in their life. At least in this country anyways. It is really not about a lack of knowledge about God if they decide they don't believe in him or fear him.

Plus people more or less force their kids into this religion. That to me is wrong. It's not just that specific religion that does it, but I just find something a bit disturbing about coaxing a child into certain spiritual beliefs.

It's not malicious. They think they're doing well by their children, up to and including the part about eternal salvation. In that sense, they aren't at fault. But yes, it's unfortunate, because kids aren't able to rebut any of it, or even grasp some of the deeper concepts as they're taught them. It's far from ideal, imo, and no surprise that the overwhelmingly largest indicator in what you will be is what religion your parents are. Exceptions abound, obviously, but they're just that: exceptions.

A good friend of mine was raised very interestingly. His parents are atheist and agnostic, respectively. And he has a brother. The parents waited until they were able to understand religious concepts before introducing them. And then they both allowed and encouraged them to explore different views, and were happy to talk with them about each. My friend is an atheist. His brother is Catholic. The parents love both.

I think that's what I'd do if I ever have kids. But that's certainly not the norm.

Originally posted by Digi
There wouldn't be any moral victory to be had by taking the torture. So, unpleasant as it would seem, I'd probably kneel. But at that point, if it's an omniscient God, I'm screwed anyway, because I can't fake true reverence. Only the outward appearance of it can be faked. If a God exists, and He is at once petty enough to demand worship and simultaneously not powerful enough to gauge true adherence, we're spending eternity with the mental equivalent of a toddler and are truly boned in other ways.

Perhaps I should have said such a God isn't "deserving" of worship, to be more precise, since it might be "worth" worshiping out of self-interest. I stand by my statement otherwise. But in either case, that God is a sh*thead.

It's also a bit beside most modern-day versions of the Christian God. Fearing judgement is a relic of the Middle Ages and the kind of extremism that preys off of fear. "God is Love" tends to rule the day in developed countries these days. Many (not all) would have a sinful Christian in trouble, and a righteous atheist doing alright.

let me switch it up a bit... say the god in question requires you to submit in order to get into heaven and gain immortality. you can have whatever thoughts it is you have, but the god presents himself to you at death as a fact and says yea i'm real, and you either submit and acknowledge my role as your creator or you simply cease to exist at death, as atheists believe. but if you submit then you can continue to live beyond death. no torture involved... do you submit?

Originally posted by Digi
It's not malicious. They think they're doing well by their children, up to and including the part about eternal salvation. In that sense, they aren't at fault. But yes, it's unfortunate, because kids aren't able to rebut any of it, or even grasp some of the deeper concepts as they're taught them. It's far from ideal, imo, and no surprise that the overwhelmingly largest indicator in what you will be is what religion your parents are. Exceptions abound, obviously, but they're just that: exceptions.

A good friend of mine was raised very interestingly. His parents are atheist and agnostic, respectively. And he has a brother. The parents waited until they were able to understand religious concepts before introducing them. And then they both allowed and encouraged them to explore different views, and were happy to talk with them about each. My friend is an atheist. His brother is Catholic. The parents love both.

I think that's what I'd do if I ever have kids. But that's certainly not the norm.

I don't think the fact they think they are doing something good matters. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. They do the same stuff a cult would do which is indoctrinate the young and vulnerable.