Are atheists afraid of judgement?

Started by Surtur44 pages

I also want to say that being an atheist doesn't mean you think all life ceases at the moment of death. I believe death is not the end. I just don't believe that when you die you go to either heaven or hell. Just like I don't believe there is some awful creature waiting in the wings to deal out judgement once you die.

I think there are possibly other realms, other planes of existence. I think some of these might resemble what most people view as heaven and some might resemble hell.

I actually believe in things like spirits and astral projection. You can have wacky metaphysical shit going on in the universe without a deity being the cause.

Originally posted by Surtur
I also want to say that being an atheist doesn't mean you think all life ceases at the moment of death. I believe death is not the end. I just don't believe that when you die you go to either heaven or hell. Just like I don't believe there is some awful creature waiting in the wings to deal out judgement once you die.

I think there are possibly other realms, other planes of existence. I think some of these might resemble what most people view as heaven and some might resemble hell.

I actually believe in things like spirits and astral projection. You can have wacky metaphysical shit going on in the universe without a deity being the cause.

If you can believe in that, what prevents you from believing in God?
Is anykind of metaphysical realm a byproduct of the physical universe, or could such a place only exist due to it being created by a divine being?

Originally posted by Surtur
I also want to say that being an atheist doesn't mean you think all life ceases at the moment of death.

Do you understand what death means?

Me, personally, I don't view any sort of afterlife as 'death.'

That is to say, if your body 'dies' and then you wake up somewhere else, it's no different than, say, having your brain put in a robot body. You aren't dead, you just lost some parts and are somewhere new. Death, to me, is only the cessation of being.

I will note there's atheists who believe in reincarnation- just that when you die, you naturally pop up again, or what have you.

Originally posted by Tattoos N Scars
If you can believe in that, what prevents you from believing in God?

In most cases, nothing 'prevents' atheists from believing in god, they just don't have any reason to view it in that framework.

One analogy I use is, beyond the stuff we can actually see, measure, calculate, test, double-check, etc., there's the unknown, and the unknown is an infinitely large sea with more possibilities that you or I can conceive of. Picking any one unknown to be true, especially a complex one, is just one of endless unlikely choices which one could pick out in a sea of possibilities that is literally infinite in size.


Is anykind of metaphysical realm a byproduct of the physical universe, or could such a place only exist due to it being created by a divine being?

There's no reason it could *only* be for such reasons.

This universe exists. Other realms could exist independently, as a byproduct of this one, this one could be a byproduct of another...

Originally posted by Q99
There's no reason it could *only* be for such reasons.

This universe exists. Other realms could exist independently, as a byproduct of this one, this one could be a byproduct of another... [/B]

Physical realms, sure. What about spiritual realms? Realms not bound to the laws of any physical universe.

Originally posted by Tattoos N Scars
If you can believe in that, what prevents you from believing in God?
Is anykind of metaphysical realm a byproduct of the physical universe, or could such a place only exist due to it being created by a divine being?

Because I don't see the two as mutually exclusive. Your consciousness might be able to exist independent of your body, it doesn't mean a crazy magic dude blinked everything into existence.

Originally posted by Astner
Do you understand what death means?

It should be obvious to anyone I was talking about physical death. Unless you correct anyone who uses the term "afterlife" as well.

Originally posted by Surtur
I don't think the fact they think they are doing something good matters. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. They do the same stuff a cult would do which is indoctrinate the young and vulnerable.

You're conflating ideas. "The road to hell is paved with good intentions" refers to people who want to do good things but choose a bad option instead. It's about action over intention when the two are at odds (i.e. "I didn't want to cheat on her, but I ended up having too many drinks and..."😉.

But it doesn't refer to people who genuinely think they're doing good, but may be misguided. If someone intends nothing but good, and performs actions that reflect that, and then somehow the results turn out bad, that person isn't a bad person.

Look, we're in agreement on most of this; it's not a good way to raise a child. They aren't developed enough to make an informed decision. It's a bad action, but not a bad person behind it. What's the Christian phrase? "Hate the sin, love the sinner." Something along those lines certainly applies here. A parent loves their child, wants them to experience God, Heaven, etc. and raises them as such. Nothing else occurs to them, by and large. Understanding the motivation is, to me, the key to attacking the concept for the right reasons instead of damning people for actions that are motivated by love, however misguided they may be.

But I don't think any action being motivated by love really means anything if these actions are harmful or just wrong.

The disturbing thing is some people might not even realize it. They might go through their entire life as religious and not realize it wasn't even their choice.

Some might argue that once they are adults it is their choice, but that isn't necessarily true. I don't think these people do it to harm their kids, I think they assume they are doing the best for them by taking away any kind of choice. Because it's what their parents did to them.

Sometimes religious people say strange things. I love my momma, but she quite literally told me one time she has never sinned. Keep in mind as a family we went to church pretty much only on Christmas Eve. It was my school that forced me into church a lot. Connecting a school right into the same building as a church is never a good idea.

I'm not sure if this was legal, but they would more or less tack on money to your tuition if you didn't go to church and donate. They gave all these students special envelopes with your name on it so they would know if you donated or not by if an envelope showed up in the collection plate. So it was also kind of a way to keep tabs on someone and make them feel bad for not donating while also keeping tabs on how often they attend mass.

Also keep in mind the tuition to these places is not cheap and yet..we had no gym. No cafeteria, nada. We had gym class in some hall or out in the parking lot. You would expect a school that costs money to attend would not be so crappy.

Then the weird punishments. In 7th grade I got a detention because in computer class I clicked the wrong icon. We were meant to open up some program like Microsoft Word and I accidentally opened up Paint. Not only did I get a detention I was sent to the vice principals office. In 2nd grade I told this girl that my friend wanted her to jump out of a cake naked for his b-day. Which is a thing my friend asked me to tell her. So I was then brought to the principal for "sexual harassment". I am dead serious too.

Originally posted by Surtur
But I don't think any action being motivated by love really means anything if these actions are harmful or just wrong.

The disturbing thing is some people might not even realize it. They might go through their entire life as religious and not realize it wasn't even their choice.

Some might argue that once they are adults it is their choice, but that isn't necessarily true. I don't think these people do it to harm their kids, I think they assume they are doing the best for them by taking away any kind of choice. Because it's what their parents did to them.

Sometimes religious people say strange things. I love my momma, but she quite literally told me one time she has never sinned. Keep in mind as a family we went to church pretty much only on Christmas Eve. It was my school that forced me into church a lot. Connecting a school right into the same building as a church is never a good idea.

I'm not sure if this was legal, but they would more or less tack on money to your tuition if you didn't go to church and donate. They gave all these students special envelopes with your name on it so they would know if you donated or not by if an envelope showed up in the collection plate. So it was also kind of a way to keep tabs on someone and make them feel bad for not donating while also keeping tabs on how often they attend mass.

Also keep in mind the tuition to these places is not cheap and yet..we had no gym. No cafeteria, nada. We had gym class in some hall or out in the parking lot. You would expect a school that costs money to attend would not be so crappy.

Then the weird punishments. In 7th grade I got a detention because in computer class I clicked the wrong icon. We were meant to open up some program like Microsoft Word and I accidentally opened up Paint. Not only did I get a detention I was sent to the vice principals office. In 2nd grade I told this girl that my friend wanted her to jump out of a cake naked for his b-day. Which is a thing my friend asked me to tell her. So I was then brought to the principal for "sexual harassment". I am dead serious too.

That is crazy. It seems the leadership and staff were 'Christian' in name only. I went to a Christian school for Kindergarten and it was no different than a public school was in the early 80's. We were taught standard curriculum. We had prayer in school then, but I remember having that in public school also. The only difference is we pledged allegiance every morning to the American and Christian flags.

Originally posted by Surtur
But I don't think any action being motivated by love really means anything if these actions are harmful or just wrong.

I do. I think it means the person isn't at fault, and is a good person. Doesn't mean I agree with the action. I'm going to agree with a lot of what you say next. I just need to make the distinction that "not condemning" isn't the same thing as "condoning" an action.

Originally posted by Surtur
The disturbing thing is some people might not even realize it. They might go through their entire life as religious and not realize it wasn't even their choice.

👆

Originally posted by Surtur
Some might argue that once they are adults it is their choice, but that isn't necessarily true. I don't think these people do it to harm their kids, I think they assume they are doing the best for them by taking away any kind of choice. Because it's what their parents did to them.

Right. Though it's likely not "it's what my parents did" but more about thinking that they're doing what's right.

Look at it from their perspective. They truly believe in their God/religion/etc. And through that religion, they're promised eternal life and salvation from their sins. They're simply guiding their children to eternal life with a benevolent creator.

Originally posted by Surtur
Sometimes religious people say strange things. I love my momma, but she quite literally told me one time she has never sinned. Keep in mind as a family we went to church pretty much only on Christmas Eve. It was my school that forced me into church a lot. Connecting a school right into the same building as a church is never a good idea.

This is straying a bit from the central premise, but w/e. I'd actually agree with your mom, though. But it's on a technicality. I don't believe in the concept of sin. I'm a determinist. So I don't think any of us have sinned, strictly speaking.

Originally posted by Surtur
I'm not sure if this was legal...

The rest of this, while unfortunate and, from the sounds of it, flatly wrong, falls into the category of personal anecdote. I'm sorry your religious upbringing was cruel at times. We're in agreement that children shouldn't be raised as a particular religion until they can grasp the concepts and decide for themselves. But I can't join you in open condemnation of the people that do so, for reasons mentioned.

If atheists were afraid of judgment, they would still be theists.

Originally posted by Tattoos N Scars
That is crazy. It seems the leadership and staff were 'Christian' in name only. I went to a Christian school for Kindergarten and it was no different than a public school was in the early 80's. We were taught standard curriculum. We had prayer in school then, but I remember having that in public school also. The only difference is we pledged allegiance every morning to the American and Christian flags.

Yes, I remember that we all did that first thing in the morning when I was going to elementary school. Shameful disgrace that the pledge was done away with for school kids.

Originally posted by Star428
Yes, I remember that we all did that first thing in the morning when I was going to elementary school. Shameful disgrace that the pledge was done away with for school kids.

I agree

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
If atheists were afraid of judgment, they would still be theists.

As an atheist myself I'm going to say that I think you can be afraid of the "judgement" and still be an atheist. Whether that is because of some doubt you have, or a general fearfulness (like say how you can fear Freddy Krueger) or because of lingering fear from early childhood indoctrination.

Though there is another kind of judgement some atheists do fear, but it is usually from family. This tends to be if the rest of your family is religious but you are not.

Has anyone ever gotten that look from someone that basically says "I think you are going to hell, but I am also genuinely sad about that" ?

Tattoos N Scars

Physical realms, sure. What about spiritual realms? Realms not bound to the laws of any physical universe.

A semantic difference.

Our physical universe has X physics. Other universes could, and are quite likely, to have different physics. Matters is not a given, nor in space or time as we know it.

A 'spiritual realm' would still have rules on how it works, so, same deal.

Heck, many depictions of spiritual realms I've seen are quite a bit less out-there than could be possible in other universes...

Originally posted by Surtur
Though there is another kind of judgement some atheists do fear, but it is usually from family. This tends to be if the rest of your family is religious but you are not.

Yes, family, friends, society... external judgement from people is something most care about.

It's basically a thing I have to deal with every holiday. Like yesterday..they did the whole "prayer before eating" and I just stayed silent and I got the dirty looks.

Though for me wouldn't it be more disrespectful if I did pray with them? Since they know I don't believe so it would just be fake.

Maybe... but, idk 😕

I just think given the first things that seem to be on God's mind when it comes to bad shit has to do with worshipping others or not worshipping him. Then you have commandments about not lying.

So if God is real..then it should be pretty awful to pray if you don't actually believe merely in order to please others. I find that to be different from even praying out of desperation and out of the off chance God might be listening.

Originally posted by Surtur
Um so what evidence do you feel there is that there is some infinite power out there? Please don't answer with "the universe is so complex".
I'll try to answer your question the best I can. We're aware of the fact that many things begin and end. We have much tangible evidence of that fact. The fact that the universe that we inhabit began at some point seems to have been scientifically proven and based on what we've observed everything that is alive in our universe will someday be dead. The evidence that there is an infinite power comes from the....

(at this point I'm returning from a massive non-emergency family distraction, forgive me as my train of thought may meander)

...simplicity rather than the complexity of the most abundant evidence we have.

While perusing the internet I came across a top ten video where they listed many speculations about reality. The concept was based around the idea that the universe may be God's video game, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFtt_zGKMok

I agree that using the universe's complexity as evidence of anything seems irrational. How can I use something that I don't fully understand to explain something even more complex than it is?

With that being said if we use simple evidence that we can all understand then perhaps humans can come to agree upon more, and hopefully we can lay some old conflicts to rest.

Please tell me if you think there are flaws in this logic...

We have these shared experiences as evidence of an infinite power. Moments exist, relationships exist, balance exists ,and apparently opposites that reflect the extremes of balance exist.

When we analyze moments we discover that time (past, present, future) is simply the passing of one moment to another. All experiences that exist rely on one moment passing on to another and that would be the case for any entity, deity or otherwise. The answer to the question of how long these moments have the potential to pass is indefinitely based on all that we know about moments and time. Time is simply humans counting moments as accurately as we can while we can. Should humans cease to exist there is zero evidence to suggest that moments would come to an end. Also there is zero evidence that we can accurately count the moments that preceded our universe. Moments support the existence of infinity in that all evidence shows them to be infinite in their potential.

When we analyze relationships we realize that all entities in existence whether sentient or not are defined by their relationships with other entities. For example our relationship with the furthest star we can observe is that we have given it the title of "furthest". A simple relationship, but a relationship by definition. Anything that is aware is created from relationships and a deity would not be exempt from this. All evidence shows awareness of relationships is what all sentience that exists is built from. The conclusion that is derived from this evidence is that an infinite power that is aware of it's own existence would inherently place a value on it's relationships as any sentient being would.

Lastly when we analyze balance and the extremes of balance that we call opposites we get the most powerful evidence that an infinite power must exist. If we look at the most simplistic examples of balance and it's extremes, we will find ourselves looking at "zero" and "one".
"Zero" is equal to the absence of all and it's opposite "one" can be defined accurately as the inclusion of all.

"Zero" can theoretically exist indefinitely without "one" to be it's opposite but such is not the case for "one". Where "one" exists "zero" must be there as it's total opposite. To elaborate on this a little we can see that where the extreme "hot" exists it's opposite "cold" must contrast it. These two exist inside of the all inclusive "one" but no opposites exist in the all exclusive "zero" and never would exist within it for an infinite amount of moments. The conclusion that we come to is that "zero" is infinitely limited to never change and is even devoid of moments, while "one" is infinitely changing and has infinite moments with it's only limitation being that it will never be "zero".

Based on these observations I feel we have enough evidence to affirm that infinity exists undeniably. Infinity will experience moments and what we name infinity has no relevance in consideration to whether it exists or not, it is simply a fact that it does, has, and will exist indefinitely.

Please let me know what you think.