Are atheists afraid of judgement?

Originally posted by The MISTER
Simply put it is so very out of the norm to not have an origin that the beginning is the only documented occurrence of this happening in nature as we know it. Thus it is not natural or occurring normally in nature. Things happening for no reason is not natural is it? How many things happen for NO reason?

What? No origin does not equate to no reason. Why do you think reason is connected to creation? If reason comes from God, then a creation is not needed for reason to exist.

How many things in nature come for nothing? The answer should be, there are none. Everything in nature comes from somethings else. Therefore, to say there was a creation is not natural, in the way you mean creation.

Originally posted by Bardock42
Well, I'm glad you appreciated the post. The problem with Noah's Ark though is that it is impossible. The size of the ark would be impossible, the natural changes would be completely poisonous to most life including humans, there'd be a lot of evidence left behind, yet there is none. Noah's ark either is metaphorical, or on a much, much smaller scale.

The behemoth is hardly a perfect description, rather it is an incredibly vague description that could fit a lot of animals. And evidence shows that humans and dinosaurs did not exist at the same time, so I am not sure how he could have showed Lot 4000 years ago.

You are right, that as we are limited by our senses, which we can not always trust even in this framework, ultimately something will require faith. We can however discuss the size of the leap of faiths and the apparent outcomes from our beliefs. And anyone must admit that the scientific method and logic had an unprecedented and unrivaled success in human advancement.

Additionally very few people believe that humans are the supreme authority of anything, if you meant that that's what atheists or scientists believe in that is a mis-characterization.

I agree that the Ark is farfetched though I believe in miracles and believe there is even evidence that supports their existence today. I have to believe that when doctors say that there is NO reason an individual is alive and call it a miracle, that they know what they're talking about.

The description of the leviathan is more relevant to me as surprisingly accurate when applied to the mosasaur, a dinosaur that ruled the seas according to scientists. This creatures bones would not be readily available at the time that the book of job was written and despite that fact the description is dead-on. This was a creature that men would not be able to challenge with harpoons and spears. It was not supposed to exist while humans inhabited the earth according to dating methods yet it is described as a living creature by the Bible. The creature called the leviathan by the Bible is a very accurate mosasaur. I am not the type of person who calls everything coincidence and the description of these two animals seems to be purposeful and accurate descriptions of creatures that should not have been described as alive by our ancestors. Mosasaur bones are difficult to gather even with todays knowledge and machinery. They are believed to have been the ultimate predators on earth and that's how the leviathan of the Bible was described. I find that intriguing.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison

How many things in nature come for nothing? The answer should be, there are none. Everything in nature comes from somethings else. Therefore, to say there was a creation is not natural, in the way you mean creation.

This is what I believe, yes.

Originally posted by The MISTER
This is what I believe, yes.

Then why do you believe that the universe came from nothing?

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Then why do you believe that the universe came from nothing?

Originally posted by The MISTER
I think that what you describe as nothing is equal to what I describe as supernatural. Just two different perspectives is all.

But there is a key difference. If it simply supernatural then there's no point in investigating it because we'll never understand it.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
But there is a key difference. If it simply supernatural then there's no point in investigating it because we'll never understand it.

Originally posted by The MISTER
I think that what you describe as nothing is equal to what I describe as supernatural. Just two different perspectives is all.

All you are doing is filling in the gap with the word supernatural.

Did God make the universe out of nothing?

Originally posted by The MISTER
Things happening for no reason is not natural is it?

“Nothing is unstable.”
-- Frank Wilczek, MIT physicist, Nobel laureate

Originally posted by Mindship
In quantum mechanics, virtual particles randomly pop in and out of existence all the time.

“Nothing is unstable.”
-- Frank Wilczek, MIT physicist, Nobel laureate

Originally posted by The MISTER
Tell me where I can read up on these particles.

You mean besides wikipedia?

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
All you are doing is filling in the gap with the word supernatural.

Did God make the universe out of nothing?

For nothing to exist and then produce somethings seems unbelievable so far but I may discover that it IS common. Unless I'm wrong that would create a need for the adjustment of the scientific law that energy cannot be created or destroyed as that would no longer be the constant case.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
You mean besides wikipedia?

I love Wikipedia!!

Originally posted by The MISTER
Just checked it out there and it leads me to ask this question? Are virtual particles simply invisible particles that make up "forces"?

I love Wikipedia!!

That's one thing they do. Electrons are kept in "orbit" around the protons in a nucleus thanks to photon exchange. Quantum gravity (still awaiting its big breakthrough) proposes that masses attract each other due to graviton exchange.

What's more important to an ex-nihilo creation of the universe is the presence of virtual particles in a vacuum, which I don't get at all.

Originally posted by The MISTER
According to the Bible all existence has a supernatural origin in that God willed the universe into existence. I am going to look into the virtual particles that mindship was explaining however as it is not my wish to dismiss available knowledge.

For nothing to exist and then produce somethings seems unbelievable so far but I may discover that it IS common. Unless I'm wrong that would create a need for the adjustment of the scientific law that energy cannot be created or destroyed as that would no longer be the constant case.

I'm glad you think the universe is made from nothing. 😎

What is nothing?

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I'm glad you think the universe is made from nothing. 😎

What is nothing?

Bible says that it's separation from God. I believe that though I can't prove it at all.

Quantum mechanics describes that "nothing" possesses its own energy, called zero point energy, that is capable of undergoing fluctuations. That is to say, there really is no such thing as "nothing" in physics; even a seemingly empty vacuum actually is constantly generating and degenerating virtual particles. To me, it isn't unthinkable that fluctuations of this energy could have caused spontaneous creation; but, I am unsure of what the research in this field indicates.

Originally posted by The MISTER
Don't know. Does it even exist at all?

Bible says that it's separation from God. I believe that though I can't prove it at all.

What I find interesting is that a lot of Christians accuse science of claiming that the universe was created form nothing, but it's really the other way around. Christians are really the one claiming that the universe came from nothing, while science says that nothingness does not exist.

Originally posted by The MISTER
For nothing to exist and then produce somethings seems unbelievable so far but I may discover that it IS common. Unless I'm wrong that would create a need for the adjustment of the scientific law that energy cannot be created or destroyed as that would no longer be the constant case.

QM is wicked stuff. 😎

Originally posted by King Kandy
Quantum mechanics describes that "nothing" possesses its own energy, called zero point energy, that is capable of undergoing fluctuations. That is to say, there really is no such thing as "nothing" in physics; even a seemingly empty vacuum actually is constantly generating and degenerating virtual particles. To me, it isn't unthinkable that fluctuations of this energy could have caused spontaneous creation; but, I am unsure of what the research in this field indicates.