Okay, this is going to be a fairly long, unbiased, purely fact based decision on who would win between Luke Skywalker from Return of the Jedi and Starkiller from TFUII.
First, let's examine their physical abilities.
Both Luke and Starkiller are human males in their physical prime. Just as any good Jedi, Starkiller and Luke are capable of using the Force to augment their already substantial physical capabilities. However, there is a couple great differences between the two. First, their physical strength. When combatting Vader, Starkiller had a seriously difficult time blocking, due to the brute force in every one of Vader's swings. Meanwhile, Luke was able to easily defend himself from Vader's attacks, and even overwhelm Vader in terms of physical strength. Another huge difference is their endurance. While both of them are complete gluttons for punishment (For example, Luke was totally pummeled with telekinetically hurled objects in Episode V), however, I would have to give the endurance edge to Starkiller. Luke could take quite a beating, but it did have obvious effects on how he fought. Meanwhile, in the first TFU novel, Starkiller was burned twice by Vader's blade, and was able to complete nullify the pain, not to mention he was able to take two steps toward Sidious while being barraged by the Emperor's lethal Force Lightning. So, while Luke might have a serious edge in strength, Starkiller's endurance cancels this out to a degree. In terms of physical ability alone, I shall consider them equal.
Next, we shall look at their martial skills. Now, obviously, we can't judge Starkiller by the game alone (Especially since he had very little variety in terms of how he fought in the game), so instead, we shall take a look at their individual styles, and how well they faired against a common enemy, Darth Vader. First, let's look at Luke. Luke Skywalker had a natural talent far exceeding any Jedi before him. With a brief lesson from Ben, and a short amount of training from Yoda, Luke went toe-to-toe with Darth Vader on Bespin, and the two were practically even. Luke quickly adapted to Vader's style, and actually briefly took the edge in their conflict, until Vader resorted to a pure telekinetic assault, then began to rely on brute force rather than his practiced style. Even then, Luke, a complete novice, was still able to land a strike on Vader. After just one more year of training, Luke's skills hand risen to a whole new level. Where before, Luke struggled with Vader as an opponent, in Episode VI, Luke never lost control of the fight. When he went on the offensive, he overwhelmed Vader in seconds (In literally 8 seconds, and with 11 blows, Luke brought Vader to his knees at the beginning of the fight.) When Luke became passive and stuck to defense, Vader couldn't even come close to actually harming Luke. By Episode VI, Luke had totally outclassed Vader in every way.
Now we shall examine Starkiller's martial capabilities. Starkiller was a non-perfect clone of the original Galen Marek, given many of Marek's original memories, but with a somewhat different skillset. For example, while Marek usually wielded just a single blade, Starkiller wielded two. This was actually an intentional decision by Vader, as a way to ensure Starkiller would not be able to defeat him in lightsaber combat, as Marek had done before. And this becomes quite evident when Starkiller and Vader finally face off at the end of TFUII. During that conflict, Starkiller was totally unable to defeat Vader in straight-forward swordplay, and had no choice but to rely on his strength in the force.
So, since Luke had outclassed Vader to the point where Vader was no longer a challenge, coupled with Luke's insane learning curve and adaptability, along with the fact that Starkiller was totally unable to get an edge against Vader in their duel, I would have to declare Luke the superior lightsaber duelist.
(Part two)
Now, let's consider their Force capabilities. Once again, I'd like to start with Luke, using feats from the movies, as well as a couple novels, such as Splinter of the Mind's Eye. However, even without the inclusion of the novels, most of Luke's feats remain the same. In Episode V, during his training with Yoda, we see that Luke is talented in telekinesis, manipulating several rocks at once and balancing them with surprising precision. We also see that Luke has some talent in precognition and telepathy, as he senses that his friends are in danger, then contacts Leia through telepathy after his duel with Vader. However, Episode V is not where Luke's true potential shines. Now, before I mention Luke's telekinetic feats in Episode VI, I would just like to point out something. At every almost every moment in the Star Wars saga, from when Obi-Wan in Episode I is pulling a lightsaber to his hand to when Darth Vader is hurling boxes and other things at Luke in Episode V, the object being telekinetically moved always rumbles for a brief moment beforehand. I believe this is a sign that the character is concentrating on the object, beginning to get a grip on it through the Force. The only real exceptions to this would be when Sidious is hurling senate pods at Yoda, and all of the times Luke uses the Force in Episode VI. When Luke yanks a blaster from a man's holster in Jabba's palace? No rumble, just an instant of motion, followed by the blaster flying into his hand. When Luke lifts C-3PO in the Ewok village? Not only is there no rumble, and not only does it happen practically instantly, but there is absolutely no sign of strain or effort on Luke's face. It's as if the action is totally effortless for him. And when Luke takes his lightsaber from Palpatine's throne? Once again, we see no brief rumble. This seems to imply that Luke's telekinetic skills in Episode VI were on a level practically never before seen in the rest of the Star Wars saga. And of course, there are a few other feats from Luke in Episode VI, such as effortlessly choking two Gamorrean guards, performing the Jedi Mind Trick, and, whether you chose to believe it was legit or not, there was his so called "Force kick," which was basically a Force push channeled through his foot, while fighting over the Pit of Carkoon. Now, as for Luke's defenses in the Force, there hasn't exactly been much stated. However, it has been shown that he can defend himself against telekinetically hurled objects, in Splinter of the Mind's Eye. In that novel, Vader hurled a massive chunk of stone at Luke, and, on pure instinct, Luke countered by telekinetically launching a stone of his own to deflect the larger one. Now, this was when Luke was close to the Kaiburr crystal, and before Luke had any real training from Yoda. So, there is no reason to believe that Luke would be incapable of the same feat, or a much greater form of defense, by Episode VI.
Now, let's talk about Starkiller's immense Force power. And let me make this perfectly clear, I do believe that Starkiller's Force capability is immense. There's no denying that he has insane destructive potential. Since Starkiller is a clone of Galen Marek, I shall also include some of Marek's feats. First, let's look at his telekinesis. He has been shown defending himself from Vader's telekinetic assaults, easily plowing through waves of regular soldiers with intense Force waves and pushes, and unleashing monstrous lightning. He was even able to guide a falling Star Destroyer using the power of the Force! Though, the effort drained him to near-death. However, there is one serious issue to consider. Most of Starkiller's greatest offensive Force feats were against non-Force wielders. Other Force users were able to easily shrug off even his most intense telekinetic assaults (As shown when Galen Marek gave himself completely to the Force, causing a massive explosion that took his life. Even though Vader and Sidious were practically caught in the very center, there was absolutely no sign that they had been harmed in the slightest). To me, this seems to imply that while Marek, and consequently, Starkiller, had a great deal of power, it was mostly unfocused. Still lethal to anyone who can't use the Force, however, it was almost a trivial matter against other Force wielders. Sure, he could throw huge things around, and launch massive pushes, but it'd be like the difference between getting hit by a beanbag round versus a shotgun slug. Sure, they're both fired by similar means, and they both pack a ton of punch, but the beanbag (Starkiller's Force assaults) isn't really going to do much damage in the long run when compared to a more focused attack. Then we come to Starkiller's lightning against other Force users. Against an unprepared enemy, maybe one who is off guard or disarmed, this attack can be truly devastating. However, as shown by Darth Vader on more than one occasion, and every single boss in the video games, Starkiller's lightning can be easily blocked with a lightsaber. Of course, Starkiller does have a handful of other Force abilities, such as Tutaminis, however, these would be far too specialized to really do him much good in a duel against Luke.
Now, to determine who would have the edge, Force-wise. Luke seldom uses the Force for attack, using it almost entirely for the defensive. Meanwhile, Starkiller's Force feats are almost entirely offensive in comparison. So, Starkiller would not have to worry about defending himself from Luke, but, I do believe he would have an immensely difficult time getting past Luke's defenses with his unfocused assaults. For the sake of this battle, I will consider them equals. Starkiller may be more destructive, but I simply can't see that having as much of an impact in this battle.
Finally, let's take a close look at their combat tactics, and really look at how this fight would play out. We know from the movies that Luke prefers straight-up Lightsaber combat, only using the Force for defense, or to increase his speed, strength, and to let him jump great distances. Meanwhile, Starkiller tends to start with lightsaber combat as well, however, if he finds the opponent is superior to him, he will resort to Force-based attacks quickly to make up for his disadvantage. The way I see this going down, Starkiller would approach Luke, rather confident that he would be able to win this quickly, and Starkiller would be dumbfounded as Luke totally overwhelms him in lightsaber combat. Keep in mind, in the books, Starkiller could barely block the strength of Vader's strikes, and Luke overpowers Vader with pure strength. So, it is entirely possible that Luke would keep Starkiller purely on the defensive, not even so much as giving him an opening to counterattack (Just as Luke had done against Vader at the very start of their duel in Episode VI). He would push Starkiller back, leaving Starkiller little choice but to resort to Force abilities. Now here is where the fight gets tricky. We've never seen Luke defending himself against a purely telekinetic assault. However, I believe it would be entirely reasonable to assume that Yoda at least taught him how to put up a Force shield, as we never see Vader telekinetically pushing Luke. And at the very least, this information may have been in the journals that Luke found in Ben's hut. Regardless, I don't think Starkiller's Force pushes, waves, or repulses would have enough of a punch to give him the edge over the defense-oriented Luke. Failing that, he may resort to trying to telekinetically hurl objects at Luke. Luke, having been overwhelmed by this before in Episode V, surely would have trained to defend himself against a similar attack, especially since Splinter of the Mind's Eye states that he has successful defended himself against thrown objects in the past. And rather than hurl the items back at Starkiller, as many of Starkiller's opponents have been shown to do (Resulting in a bit of a back-and-forth, with the strongest Force user coming out on top), Luke would simply do just enough to deflect the objects away from him, rendering all of Starkiller's telekinetic attacks void. This leaves Starkiller one option, lightning, which we have already seen can be deflected by lightsaber. And keep in mind, during the whole time Starkiller would be trying to use his Force attacks, Luke would still be pressing his lightsaber offensive, so it's entirely likely that Starkiller wouldn't even get the chance to use much in the way of Force abilities during this battle.
In conclusion, I would have to say that Luke takes this. His lightsaber skills are just far too great, and Starkiller's Force attacks are far too unfocused, not packing much of a punch, and certainly not enough to defeat somebody with as much natural connection to the Force as Luke. Luke would continue pressing the offensive with his lightsaber, where he knows he would have an advantage, and would do everything he could to prevent Starkiller from even getting off a Force attack to begin with. Now, Starkiller might take a hell of a beating before he goes down, thanks to his ridiculous endurance, but the result is still the same. I declare Luke the victor. If I overlooked anything, please, let me know.
(P.S.)
Don't try saying "Starkiller defeated Sidious." First, that fight was gameplay only, never happened in the novels. The novels take precedence over the games as far as canon is concerned. Second, The only time Sidious was ever actually in pain as a result of Starkiller was when Starkiller grabbed Sidious' shoulders, channeling the Emperor's lightning back into himself. Even then, it was described as "lascivious pain." For those of you who aren't familiar with the word "lascivious," let me give you the exact definition: "(of a person, manner, or gesture) feeling or revealing an overt and often offensive sexual desire." In other words, Sidious was taking pleasure from it, rather than being honestly injured. And if you would prefer to go with the games for canon, Sidious didn't defend himself from any of Starkiller's attacks (unless you were playing PS2), and when it was all over, Starkiller was still a smoldering corpse, while Sidious still walked away totally uninjured. Starkiller did not come close, in any way conceivable, to defeating Sidious. So don't try to argue that. Just... Don't. I'm sick of it.
Re: (P.S.)
Originally posted by That1smartdude
Don't try saying "Starkiller defeated Sidious." First, that fight was gameplay only, never happened in the novels. The novels take precedence over the games as far as canon is concerned. Second, The only time Sidious was ever actually in pain as a result of Starkiller was when Starkiller grabbed Sidious' shoulders, channeling the Emperor's lightning back into himself. Even then, it was described as "lascivious pain." For those of you who aren't familiar with the word "lascivious," let me give you the exact definition: "(of a person, manner, or gesture) feeling or revealing an overt and often offensive sexual desire." In other words, Sidious was taking pleasure from it, rather than being honestly injured. And if you would prefer to go with the games for canon, Sidious didn't defend himself from any of Starkiller's attacks (unless you were playing PS2), and when it was all over, Starkiller was still a smoldering corpse, while Sidious still walked away totally uninjured. Starkiller did not come close, in any way conceivable, to defeating Sidious. So don't try to argue that. Just... Don't. I'm sick of it.
It's clear no one can really match Sidious now except Yoda.
Originally posted by Nalaniel
Who is the superior one? Galen Marek or his clone Starkiller? I only know Starkiller from the game The Force Unleashed II.
Galen Marek is the superior lightsaber duelist, as he was able to defeat Darth Vader in straight forward lightsaber contest, where the best Starkiller could hope for was a stalemate. However, due to some of Starkiller's more extreme feats, it's possible that he may be the superior Force wielder, though if so, it will be by such a small margin as to be insignificant in the long run. So, on the whole, I would say neither is really greater than the other, with each of them having a separate, yet equal, skill set. That said, I'm fairly certain Luke would have no trouble beating either one.
Re: Re: (P.S.)
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
It's clear no one can really match Sidious now except Yoda.
Well, Luke did go against a Sidious clone in Dark Empire, who claimed to be more powerful than ever (Which would make sense, since the clone was in much better physical condition), and in their second encounter, Luke was able to bring him down. And of course, you can't forget that Mace Windu was at least able to hold his own against Sidious (Though, I do believe Sidious threw the fight at the end, when he sensed Anakin coming). So, Luke, Yoda, and Mace are all at least a match for Sidious.
Re: (Part two)
Originally posted by That1smartdude
Now, let's consider their Force capabilities. Once again, I'd like to start with Luke, using feats from the movies, as well as a couple novels, such as Splinter of the Mind's Eye. However, even without the inclusion of the novels, most of Luke's feats remain the same. In Episode V, during his training with Yoda, we see that Luke is talented in telekinesis, manipulating several rocks at once and balancing them with surprising precision. We also see that Luke has some talent in precognition and telepathy, as he senses that his friends are in danger, then contacts Leia through telepathy after his duel with Vader. However, Episode V is not where Luke's true potential shines. Now, before I mention Luke's telekinetic feats in Episode VI, I would just like to point out something. At every almost every moment in the Star Wars saga, from when Obi-Wan in Episode I is pulling a lightsaber to his hand to when Darth Vader is hurling boxes and other things at Luke in Episode V, the object being telekinetically moved always rumbles for a brief moment beforehand. I believe this is a sign that the character is concentrating on the object, beginning to get a grip on it through the Force. The only real exceptions to this would be when Sidious is hurling senate pods at Yoda, and all of the times Luke uses the Force in Episode VI. When Luke yanks a blaster from a man's holster in Jabba's palace? No rumble, just an instant of motion, followed by the blaster flying into his hand. When Luke lifts C-3PO in the Ewok village? Not only is there no rumble, and not only does it happen practically instantly, but there is absolutely no sign of strain or effort on Luke's face. It's as if the action is totally effortless for him. And when Luke takes his lightsaber from Palpatine's throne? Once again, we see no brief rumble. This seems to imply that Luke's telekinetic skills in Episode VI were on a level practically never before seen in the rest of the Star Wars saga. And of course, there are a few other feats from Luke in Episode VI, such as effortlessly choking two Gamorrean guards, performing the Jedi Mind Trick, and, whether you chose to believe it was legit or not, there was his so called "Force kick," which was basically a Force push channeled through his foot, while fighting over the Pit of Carkoon. Now, as for Luke's defenses in the Force, there hasn't exactly been much stated. However, it has been shown that he can defend himself against telekinetically hurled objects, in Splinter of the Mind's Eye. In that novel, Vader hurled a massive chunk of stone at Luke, and, on pure instinct, Luke countered by telekinetically launching a stone of his own to deflect the larger one. Now, this was when Luke was close to the Kaiburr crystal, and before Luke had any real training from Yoda. So, there is no reason to believe that Luke would be incapable of the same feat, or a much greater form of defense, by Episode VI.
Now, let's talk about Starkiller's immense Force power. And let me make this perfectly clear, I do believe that Starkiller's Force capability is immense. There's no denying that he has insane destructive potential. Since Starkiller is a clone of Galen Marek, I shall also include some of Marek's feats. First, let's look at his telekinesis. He has been shown defending himself from Vader's telekinetic assaults, easily plowing through waves of regular soldiers with intense Force waves and pushes, and unleashing monstrous lightning. He was even able to guide a falling Star Destroyer using the power of the Force! Though, the effort drained him to near-death. However, there is one serious issue to consider. Most of Starkiller's greatest offensive Force feats were against non-Force wielders. Other Force users were able to easily shrug off even his most intense telekinetic assaults (As shown when Galen Marek gave himself completely to the Force, causing a massive explosion that took his life. Even though Vader and Sidious were practically caught in the very center, there was absolutely no sign that they had been harmed in the slightest). To me, this seems to imply that while Marek, and consequently, Starkiller, had a great deal of power, it was mostly unfocused. Still lethal to anyone who can't use the Force, however, it was almost a trivial matter against other Force wielders. Sure, he could throw huge things around, and launch massive pushes, but it'd be like the difference between getting hit by a beanbag round versus a shotgun slug. Sure, they're both fired by similar means, and they both pack a ton of punch, but the beanbag (Starkiller's Force assaults) isn't really going to do much damage in the long run when compared to a more focused attack. Then we come to Starkiller's lightning against other Force users. Against an unprepared enemy, maybe one who is off guard or disarmed, this attack can be truly devastating. However, as shown by Darth Vader on more than one occasion, and every single boss in the video games, Starkiller's lightning can be easily blocked with a lightsaber. Of course, Starkiller does have a handful of other Force abilities, such as Tutaminis, however, these would be far too specialized to really do him much good in a duel against Luke.
Now, to determine who would have the edge, Force-wise. Luke seldom uses the Force for attack, using it almost entirely for the defensive. Meanwhile, Starkiller's Force feats are almost entirely offensive in comparison. So, Starkiller would not have to worry about defending himself from Luke, but, I do believe he would have an immensely difficult time getting past Luke's defenses with his unfocused assaults. For the sake of this battle, I will consider them equals. Starkiller may be more destructive, but I simply can't see that having as much of an impact in this battle.
Finally, let's take a close look at their combat tactics, and really look at how this fight would play out. We know from the movies that Luke prefers straight-up Lightsaber combat, only using the Force for defense, or to increase his speed, strength, and to let him jump great distances. Meanwhile, Starkiller tends to start with lightsaber combat as well, however, if he finds the opponent is superior to him, he will resort to Force-based attacks quickly to make up for his disadvantage. The way I see this going down, Starkiller would approach Luke, rather confident that he would be able to win this quickly, and Starkiller would be dumbfounded as Luke totally overwhelms him in lightsaber combat. Keep in mind, in the books, Starkiller could barely block the strength of Vader's strikes, and Luke overpowers Vader with pure strength. So, it is entirely possible that Luke would keep Starkiller purely on the defensive, not even so much as giving him an opening to counterattack (Just as Luke had done against Vader at the very start of their duel in Episode VI). He would push Starkiller back, leaving Starkiller little choice but to resort to Force abilities. Now here is where the fight gets tricky. We've never seen Luke defending himself against a purely telekinetic assault. However, I believe it would be entirely reasonable to assume that Yoda at least taught him how to put up a Force shield, as we never see Vader telekinetically pushing Luke. And at the very least, this information may have been in the journals that Luke found in Ben's hut. Regardless, I don't think Starkiller's Force pushes, waves, or repulses would have enough of a punch to give him the edge over the defense-oriented Luke. Failing that, he may resort to trying to telekinetically hurl objects at Luke. Luke, having been overwhelmed by this before in Episode V, surely would have trained to defend himself against a similar attack, especially since Splinter of the Mind's Eye states that he has successful defended himself against thrown objects in the past. And rather than hurl the items back at Starkiller, as many of Starkiller's opponents have been shown to do (Resulting in a bit of a back-and-forth, with the strongest Force user coming out on top), Luke would simply do just enough to deflect the objects away from him, rendering all of Starkiller's telekinetic attacks void. This leaves Starkiller one option, lightning, which we have already seen can be deflected by lightsaber. And keep in mind, during the whole time Starkiller would be trying to use his Force attacks, Luke would still be pressing his lightsaber offensive, so it's entirely likely that Starkiller wouldn't even get the chance to use much in the way of Force abilities during this battle.
In conclusion, I would have to say that Luke takes this. His lightsaber skills are just far too great, and Starkiller's Force attacks are far too unfocused, not packing much of a punch, and certainly not enough to defeat somebody with as much natural connection to the Force as Luke. Luke would continue pressing the offensive with his lightsaber, where he knows he would have an advantage, and would do everything he could to prevent Starkiller from even getting off a Force attack to begin with. Now, Starkiller might take a hell of a beating before he goes down, thanks to his ridiculous endurance, but the result is still the same. I declare Luke the victor. If I overlooked anything, please, let me know.
"Applauds."
That was awesome! It felt like something by Jensaarai1. Well done!
One suggestion though. In future, leave a line between each paragraph. That would make it much easier to read.
Re: Re: (Part two)
Originally posted by chilled monkey
That was awesome! It felt like something by Jensaarai1. Well done!One suggestion though. In future, leave a line between each paragraph. That would make it much easier to read.
Why thank you! I actually tried to model my analysis after the same basic principals that Jensaarai1 uses for all of his videos. And also, I should thank you for that line idea. I'll be sure to do that from now on.
(Part Three)
This is just going to be a rather brief update on the character's defenses, and whether or not they would have an affect on the outcome of my conclusion.
First, I'm going to address Starkiller's defenses. For anyone who has played the game or read the novels, it's fairly obvious that his defense against Force-based attacks is extremely hit-and-miss. As long as he sees a Force-based attack coming, he can defend himself against it. However, when caught off-guard, he is easily susceptible to telekinetic assaults. This seems to imply that Starkiller does not have a passive defense against the Force, which can prove to be a serious weakness, and easy to exploit.
Luke is a bit harder to examine in this regard. While there certainly are plenty of examples of him defending himself, most of them come from the EU long after RotJ. As far as I'm aware, the only two examples of him defending himself through the Force come from the novels Splinter of the Mind's Eye and the Return of the Jedi novelization. As I've already gone over the Splinter of the Mind's Eye in one of my previous posts, I shall instead focus on the example from Return of the Jedi. According to the official novelization, Luke tried to defend himself against Sidious' Force lightning, and met with initial success. Despite having never seen Force lightning before, he was able to briefly protect himself against the Emperor's immensely powerful attack. What he used to defend himself wasn't exactly Tutaminis, however. As the novel was a bit vague on how exactly he defended himself, I would come to the conclusion that he simply used the basic defense most Jedi are taught for defending themselves against Force attacks. To be able to briefly stop Force lightning from the Emperor with this relatively basic defense would have taken an immense amount of raw power, which is backed up with my analysis of Luke's telekinetic skills in an earlier post. And as Luke clearly would not have seen the lightning coming, this implies that his defenses were likely more passive than Starkillers.
Now, let's look at how these facts would affect the actual outcome. In short: Very little. Luke is not an offensive Force user by any means, so Starkiller's ability to defend himself against the Force is inconsequential. However, if Luke did decide to use an offensive Force technique, Starkiller may not be able to defend himself in time. Especially if Luke decided to choke him the way he choked the Gamorrean guards at the beginning of Episode VI. Such a simple gesture may go unnoticed by Starkiller in the heat of combat until it was too late. However, I still find Luke using the Force as a weapon against Starkiller extremely unlikely. Now, as for how Luke's defenses would come into play, I would have to say this only makes Luke more likely to win. With Luke's immense telekinetic skill, he would easily be able to defend against thrown objects, and he could definitely defend himself against lightning with his lightsaber, as it was shown other Force users had no trouble doing the same. And with Luke's passive basic defense, backed up by his immense raw power, this would cancel out the only real edge Starkiller had against Luke, the pushes and repulses. Especially considering how little of a punch each of Starkiller's telekinetic attacks packs (As pointed out before, even Starkiller's most powerful explosion of raw telekinetic energy, the attack that actually killed the original Starkiller, didn't even pack enough energy behind it to have the slightest affect on Vader or Sidious. Coupled with how little of a lasting affect his regular attacks have on any Force wielders, this seems to imply that Starkiller's attacks, while destructive, are still weak enough to mostly be canceled out by any passive defense).
In conclusion, thanks to evidence provided from the RotJ novelization, I think it's safe to say that Luke has the edge in every regard for this contest. I have no doubt that the duel would be intense, but I'm certain that Starkiller simply wouldn't be able to defeat Luke.