Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
It's been established that "surprise sex" thing was either made up or overblown.On a related note the US Navy has been keeping Bradley Manning (the guy who made the leaks) in solitary confinement for months now.
Yes I've heard about that business with Manning, but I suppose the military's got some law in place where that's okay.
It's funny how things turn out.
so, i dont think I can link to this, because it is a member only article (though, free membership...), but Stratfor had a good article on this.
everyone, includin that article, I think at least, misses the most important part of these leaks. sure, I'm the first to admit a lack of new or surprising revelations about the state of the world (meaning regional experts generally know what they are talking about), but people seem so quick to dismiss the revelations about the mechanisms of diplomacy uncovered here.
to me, it is irrelevant that we "already knew" about corruption in central Asia,'or whatever. what we see is how that corruption works. we see the cogs and gears of the American empire like never before.
taking the Canadian cables that have been releaaed so far, there really is nothing new for an informed citizen, except the veil is now pulled back. we see the complete disregard for democratic principles at the level of international diplomacy, we see the back room talks and manipulations. idk, I think people are mission the forest for the trees. everyone is looking for the headline that will sink the Americans, ignoring that, even if we knew the geopolitical results, we know now how the Americans use their power and influence to manipulate world events.
Wikileaks/US problem
Someone I know said this:
"no amount of Facebook groups, protests and Youtube videos will have any impact on the Wikileaks / US situation. It's going to take civil revolt and worse before anything is done. And before anyone wastes my time or theirs arguing that violence and/or civil disobedience won't solve anything, I will expect to be given an alternative that actually shakes the foundations hard enough that actual, real change is made."
I think it's illogical. Anyone care to comment?
Originally posted by inimalist
so, i dont think I can link to this, because it is a member only article (though, free membership...), but Stratfor had a good article on this.everyone, includin that article, I think at least, misses the most important part of these leaks. sure, I'm the first to admit a lack of new or surprising revelations about the state of the world (meaning regional experts generally know what they are talking about), but people seem so quick to dismiss the revelations about the mechanisms of diplomacy uncovered here.
to me, it is irrelevant that we "already knew" about corruption in central Asia,'or whatever. what we see is how that corruption works. we see the cogs and gears of the American empire like never before.
taking the Canadian cables that have been releaaed so far, there really is nothing new for an informed citizen, except the veil is now pulled back. we see the complete disregard for democratic principles at the level of international diplomacy, we see the back room talks and manipulations. idk, I think people are mission the forest for the trees. everyone is looking for the headline that will sink the Americans, ignoring that, even if we knew the geopolitical results, we know now how the Americans use their power and influence to manipulate world events.
Yep agree 100% but with a British prospective (Cables relating to Britain). Personally im just waiting for the story that puts a bullet thorugh the sarcastically coined "Special relationship".
Re: Wikileaks/US problem
Originally posted by mac-11
I think it's illogical. Anyone care to comment?
sure:
no amount of Facebook groups, protests and Youtube videos will have any impact on the Wikileaks / US situation.
false premise, straw-man-esque... (?)
what wikileaks/us situation? what are people protesting? He is essentially using this as a vehicle to set up his next line, which seems nonsensical if there is no assumed "situation".
It's going to take civil revolt and worse before anything is done.
baseless, we have no idea what the problem is in the first place, so it is really impossible to know what needs to be done, or what would be required to accomplish it
And before anyone wastes my time or theirs arguing that violence and/or civil disobedience won't solve anything, I will expect to be given an alternative that actually shakes the foundations hard enough that actual, real change is made."
I don't know the specific name of it, but requiring evidence that something else can shake the foundations before accepting criticism about his ideas is one.
---
ultimately, its like Bardock said, the argument is too vague to really make sense anyways. There are little fallacies, but that is more of a consequence of there just being no meat or exposition on the points your friend is trying to make. If you want the "gotcha" moment, go with the straw-man he uses at the beginning, as without it, the rest is nonsensical. However, if he defines what the US/Wikileaks situation is, it really isn't a straw-man anymore.
Lawyers Cry Foul Over Leak of Julian Assange Sex-case Papers
Incriminating police files were published in the British newspaper that has used him as its source for hundreds of leaked US embassy cables. In a move that surprised many of Mr Assange's closest supporters on Saturday, The Guardian newspaper published previously unseen police documents that accused Mr Assange in graphic detail of sexually assaulting two Swedish women. One witness is said to have stated: "Not only had it been the world's worst screw, it had also been violent." Bjorn Hurtig, Mr Assange's Swedish lawyer, said he would lodge a formal complaint to the authorities and ask them to investigate how such sensitive police material leaked into the public domain. "It is with great concern that I hear about this because it puts Julian and his defence in a bad position," he told a colleague.
The irony is unbearable.
Originally posted by RocasAtoll
Lawyers Cry Foul Over Leak of Julian Assange Sex-case PapersThe irony is unbearable.
Originally posted by 753
One could also argue there is a difference between the privacy of private citizens, the women's and assange's, and government secrecy.
He's now a celebrity, in the US that would mean he no longer has a right to privacy I don't know if that applies to the rest of the world. Not to mention that the dipmolats were all indidivuals to, they were just working for the US govt like Assange works for Wikileaks.
Originally posted by 753
One could also argue there is a difference between the privacy of private citizens, the women's and assange's, and government secrecy.
One could also point out that Assange's justification is public interest, and that can be applied to any information, individual or group.
The prejudicial nature of the material is a more serious issue. I'm equally critical of wikileaks' revelations about China and North Korea- fascinating stuff, but by releasing it they put the diplomatic process at risk, as that information embarrasses China.