Wikileaks Embassy Cables

Started by inimalist18 pages

Wikileaks Embassy Cables

So, it really surprised me that we don't have a formal Wikileaks discussion thread. I don't know about you guys, but the Afghanistan and Iraq war diaries had me hooked!

So, while the main theme for this thread is the currently ongoing revelation of over 250 000 state department documents, there is room to discuss Wikileaks in general, or its somewhat interesting owner, Julian Assange.

As the information is breaking as we speak, there will no doubt be "newer and better" assemblies of what has been found, but I thought this BBC one was good:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-11858990

Most interesting so far, imho at least, is the spying on the UN and other nations.

Here are the NY Times and Guardian stories on the issue (NYT and the Guardian got copies of the cables prior to their release).

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/29/world/29spy.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/nov/28/us-embassy-cables-spying-un

So ya, go wikileaks.

Likely related, Assange was arrested on an international rape charge warrent:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/8166421/WikiLeaks-Julian-Assange-could-face-grave-consequences.html

He could be guilty, idk, I'm not sure of the facts of the case, it just does add another level of intrigue to the story. At this point, though, I'm sure Wikileaks as a phenomenon probably could exist without Assanage as a "figurehead". If the US did really press the Sweeds to arrest Assanage, in-order-to-discredit-wikileaks, I'd say that is a plan doomed to failure.

The DNS attacks the site is facing? probably a better start:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/twitter/8166204/WikiLeaks-under-cyber-attack.html

The Rape issue:

http://www.webcitation.org/getfile.php?fileid=a75edcaf34e52a31535731098002fa847220ebc2

so, assange was not "arrested" when Sweeden issued the warrant. However, it also almost immediatly dropped the charges:

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/europe/2010/08/2010821153010551757.html

Only to immediatly bring them up again under different wording:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-11-24/arrest-warrant-for-wikileaks-founder-assange-is-upheld-by-swedish-court.html

not to make this the issue of the thread, Its just that I'm finding updates to the issue as fast as I can edit the thread. The real point is to discuss the embassy leaks or Wikileaks as an institution, though I do think the charges add a level of "mystery" to the whole affair.

YouTube video

- Sweeden's prosecutor seems to fluster under the interviewer's questioning... Its like a John Grisham novel

EDIT: woooooooooooooooo /spooky

YouTube video

lol, anyways, to get us back on track, aside from the Spying on UN diplomats, here we see evidence of Isreal preparing to unilaterally attack Iranian nuclear facilities, and possible US support in terms of Bunker buster missiles

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/nov/28/israel-primed-attack-nuclear-iran

Re: Wikileaks Embassy Cables

Originally posted by inimalist
Most interesting so far, imho at least, is the spying on the UN and other nations.

That's probably the least interesting bit but potentially the most damaging. Every country that is relevant on the international stage is spying on everyone else. But stuff about your spies gets leaked it's a loss of face and a clear sign that your intelligence agency is weak.

Originally posted by inimalist
Likely related, Assange was arrested on an international rape charge warrent:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/8166421/WikiLeaks-Julian-Assange-could-face-grave-consequences.html

He could be guilty, idk, I'm not sure of the facts of the case, it just does add another level of intrigue to the story. At this point, though, I'm sure Wikileaks as a phenomenon probably could exist without Assanage as a "figurehead". If the US did really press the Sweeds to arrest Assanage, in-order-to-discredit-wikileaks, I'd say that is a plan doomed to failure.

I don't know about his guilt or if he was framed. What I do know is that people are stupidly easy to influence with this sort of stuff, the whole US political machine is built around finding naughty but irrelevant things candidates have done to stop them from getting elected. The accusation can't help but damage wikileaks.

Originally posted by inimalist
The DNS attacks the site is facing? probably a better start:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/twitter/8166204/WikiLeaks-under-cyber-attack.html

Or maybe not. I just read something about wikileaks sending out encrypted copies of what are apparently their files via twitter.

Re: Re: Wikileaks Embassy Cables

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
That's probably the least interesting bit but potentially the most damaging. Every country that is relevant on the international stage is spying on everyone else. But stuff about your spies gets leaked it's a loss of face and a clear sign that your intelligence agency is weak.

less interesting compared to "pakistan's nukes might fall into terrorist hands" or "China is hacking"?

Obviously people spy, but like, iris and DNA information on UN diplomats, on orders signed by members of the president's immediate cabinet? Handled by the state department and not the intelligence agencies?

there are so many weird twists to this, though to be perfectly frank, I'm most interested in the 2000 documents sent from Canadian embassies.

whatever, I just like spy stuff...

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
I don't know about his guilt or if he was framed. What I do know is that people are stupidly easy to influence with this sort of stuff, the whole US political machine is built around finding naughty but irrelevant things candidates have done to stop them from getting elected. The accusation can't help but damage wikileaks.

damage their public appeal in the American media. But, already, every time Wikileaks releases information, the American brass say, essentially unchallanged, that it is putting American's in harms way. I don't think the section of the public that gets its news straight from the American mainstream media is ever going to fall behind an organization dedicated to the release of confidential information.

But, as an entity that proveds an avenue to release this information, I don't think taking asange off the stage would do much to shut it down. Even if the servers were destroyed, the concept exists like an idea, at least I would think at this point.

Like, the same way shutting down Napster didn't kill piracy, but in fact, spawned hundreds of new "Napsters"

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Or maybe not. I just read something about wikileaks sending out encrypted copies of what are apparently their files via twitter.

/love

looks like both women pressed charges toghether weeks after each of the supposed offenses. it seems rather fishy

Re: Re: Re: Wikileaks Embassy Cables

Originally posted by inimalist
less interesting compared to "pakistan's nukes might fall into terrorist hands" or "China is hacking"?

Obviously people spy, but like, iris and DNA information on UN diplomats, on orders signed by members of the president's immediate cabinet? Handled by the state department and not the intelligence agencies?

there are so many weird twists to this, though to be perfectly frank, I'm most interested in the 2000 documents sent from Canadian embassies.

whatever, I just like spy stuff...

Just generally not "news", to me. As far as I know international spy wars are not just constant but expected and even somewhat accepted by national governments.

Originally posted by inimalist
damage their public appeal in the American media. But, already, every time Wikileaks releases information, the American brass say, essentially unchallanged, that it is putting American's in harms way.

And, honestly, they're probably right that leaked information put American soldiers and interests in harms way. The most obvious consequences are for soldiers and spies but also keep in mind that widespread leaks make it hard for diplomats to be honest when they make their reports.

That doesn't mean people shouldn't send out leaks. It just means that, at the very least, they should be aware that there are factors other than the nasty secretive government and the truth loving journalist.

Originally posted by inimalist
I don't think the section of the public that gets its news straight from the American mainstream media is ever going to fall behind an organization dedicated to the release of confidential information.

Yeah, that's probably true.

Originally posted by inimalist
But, as an entity that proveds an avenue to release this information, I don't think taking asange off the stage would do much to shut it down. Even if the servers were destroyed, the concept exists like an idea, at least I would think at this point.

Like, the same way shutting down Napster didn't kill piracy, but in fact, spawned hundreds of new "Napsters"

Also true, but there is a key difference. Pirate sites don't need a reputation to operate, muckrakers do (or at least should). Once they

Originally posted by inimalist
/love

If you want to participate:
https://thepiratebay.org/torrent/5723136/WikiLeaks_insurance

A truly noble use of filesharing.

It's simple i'm trying to stop two world wars.....

I even have shit on this site, Raz really repairs computers in the Northwest of the UK and his Girlfriend sells diamonte cases for mobile phones etc. Oh, and Whirly is really more important than anyone here.

Perhaps the funniest thing is the US rape honeytrap attempt on me, the whole world sees what they are doing.

I will have full disclosure on every world issue....

Including area 51, We ****ing know the yanks had aliens.

Damn Julian u da man!

Re: Re: Re: Re: Wikileaks Embassy Cables

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
And, honestly, they're probably right that leaked information put American soldiers and interests in harms way. The most obvious consequences are for soldiers and spies but also keep in mind that widespread leaks make it hard for diplomats to be honest when they make their reports.

That doesn't mean people shouldn't send out leaks. It just means that, at the very least, they should be aware that there are factors other than the nasty secretive government and the truth loving journalist.

The Pentagon released a report saying no Americans had been hurt due to the war logs being released.

http://www.armytimes.com/news/2010/10/ap-limited-damage-from-leak-of-afghan-war-logs/

Though, I think I did catch a headline somewhere that the Taliban was going after informants. Wikileaks does try to do what they can to minimize this, but ultimately you are right, it doesn't pose zero risk. Given that the US state department did such a publicity blitz with its allies prior to the embassy cables being released, we can probably assume this one is much less about people getting hurt, and more about saving face.

http://ottawa.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20101128/us-wikileaks-appeal-101128/20101128/?hub=OttawaHome

it will be intersting to see if this has even the impact that outing Valerie Plaime would have.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Also true, but there is a key difference. Pirate sites don't need a reputation to operate, muckrakers do (or at least should). Once they

hmmm, that is true. To be fair though, that might just be a matter of time. If Demonoid started hosting files with known viruses all the time, they would lose their user base. Similarily, "good" sources of information would eventually be identifed. knowing what is "good" in this case would be infinitely harder, and might pose no better than having numerous news cites on the internet, each with their own version of the truth (not that I think wikileaks is neutral by any measure)

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
If you want to participate:
https://thepiratebay.org/torrent/5723136/WikiLeaks_insurance

A truly noble use of filesharing.

hmmm, might have to try out this "Twitter" thing that is all the rage, because the file is encrypted, and the people at TPB seem to think it will be posted in the Wikileaks Twitter

The encryption key is around, if you know where to look.

Re: Wikileaks Embassy Cables

Originally posted by inimalist
Wikileak stuff

I hope you realise your going into the terrorist black book for posting this🙂

I could use the street cred

ha, fine, if there isn't a lot of discussion to be had, I'll keep my own little blog here until a mod shuts it down, seriously, I can't get enough of this wikileaks stuff, it is almost like "gossip" to me at this point. I spent a couple of hours going through some "haxors" talking about how the "insurance" file was encrypted, and whether it contained anything real, stuff I wouldn't normally care about at all. Its like, taken over my mind....

anyways, apparently the only government not going apeshit trying to explain why Wikileaks is a terrorist organization out to undermine democracy are.... The Israelis?

Aluf Benn, one of Israel's leading columnists, writes in Ha'aretz that the country's diplomats and leaders appear to have been saying in private the same things they have been saying in public:

[quote]The secret documents sent by the US Embassy in Tel Aviv show that the heads of the Israeli intelligence apparatus and the defense establishment refer to the same talking points when briefing American bureaucrats and congressional delegations as they do when speaking to journalists and Knesset members.... Thus Israel has no reason to be embarrassed by the leak, because there are no large gaps between what it said domestically and what it said for public consumption.


[/quote]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/blog/2010/nov/29/wikileaks-us-embassy-cables-live-updates

this Guardian blog also has some quotes from Hillary Clinton's statements on wikileaks today, but I want to see the whole thing before I talk about the sort of global response to this, especially in light of a point Sym made yesterday, namely, that anyone who follows these issues closely is probably not hugely surprised by the content of the cables.

Do you think the leaks were leaked purposely or as it would appear were stolen documents.

Because this would be a good reason create a new enemy, "cyber terrorism" by which they could pass law to rob people of even more freedoms.

Originally posted by Bicnarok
Because this would be a good reason create a new enemy, "cyber terrorism" by which they could pass law to rob people of even more freedoms.

Cyber terrorism is a very legitimate concern when so much of a nation and society require the internet. Besides it's not like the tools for it don't exist, in fact they get used all the time, just not on governments. I'm honesty surprised it took until 2009 for an actual Cyberwarfare Division to be created in the US.

not really

what is seen (at least in the couple hundred released so far, and in the dozens I've read myself) is not so much what is done diplomatically, but how. So, while we all know Western powers get together to control weaker nations, but in this cable:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/us-embassy-cables-documents/175722

we see it in action. We not only see people playing the "great game" in central asia, but members of the British Royal Family call it such, and express their intent to "win".

The cable is discussed here:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/nov/29/wikileaks-cables-rude-prince-andrew

but they seem to go for the easy headline, "one of the Princes is rude to foreigners". However, if you read through the cable, you get an understanding for how business is really done in Kyrgistan, at all levels, and how the economic and political arms of a nation essentially work as one to enforce policy.

I tend to think this is the type of information that the government wouldn't want to release as misinformation. The type of stuff, as John McCain might put it, "that you don't say out loud".

Considering the COICA, and that American congressmen are already calling wikileaks, no kidding, a terrorist organization, I don't think they would need to make it seem more "anti-american" to enact legislation against it (technically, wikileaks already violates american law).

From the perspective that this might be "fake" or "counter-intelligence", 1) thats why I like the filter of the Guardian or NYT, acutally, I'll let the NYT answer:

In fact, in this case — our third round of articles based on documents obtained by WikiLeaks — we did not receive the documents from WikiLeaks. Julian Assange, the founder of the group, decided to withhold the material from us, apparently because he was offended by our reporting on his legal and organizational problems.

...

WikiLeaks is a source of raw material, which we have used to write articles about America’s foreign relations. No one from WikiLeaks had any input into our articles, or was allowed to see them before publication.

Like most sources, WikiLeaks has its own motives. Our motive, in fact our reason for being, is to provide information and analysis to help readers decide what they think about the world.

basically, there is some degree of confirmation there, from a source that has questioned wikileaks in the past and at least doesn't always sing their praises, and 2) if we believe there are over 250 000 documents with as specific information as what is contained in these cables, we would be talking about a counter-intelligence operation that would have taken years and hundreds, if not thousands, of people to accomplish. Again from the NYT:

The contents of the cables are consistent with much other reporting we have done on America’s foreign relations, and the format is familiar from embassy cables we have seen from other sources. But the most reliable authentication is this: In our extensive conversations with the United States government — in this case, and in the two previous releases of classified documents by WikiLeaks — no official has questioned the genuineness of the material, or suggested that they have been manipulated in any way.

I think occam's razor still errs on the leak being real.

(sort of) 3: also, while constantly referring to the cables as "alleged", Clinton does point out that they confirm much of what America has said about Iran (they do), meaning that she probably dosn't think they are "alleged", at least when America looks good.

EDIT: basically, I don't think the Americans would be capable of faking a leak of this nature without someone smelling a rat (other than Ahmadeenijad), and I think they already have the tools to fight cyberterrorism, or subsequently abuse people with anti-cyberterrorism, without needing to legislate against wikileaks, which is already a criminal organization in terms of American law.

EDIT2: that NYT link:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/29/world/29askthetimes.html?pagewanted=1

I wonder what unintended crops will rise from these leaks sprung.

they can scream and legislate all they want, there'll be no stopping this. just like napster as you acurately pointed out. And despite the us and other governments formidable propaganda machines, whistleblowers are much harder to label terrorist than a random armed militant or direct action activist. This will eventually erode the credibility of the use of the terrorist label - as it has already been eroded to a point - until it loses effect, which will actually be good against the criminalization of dissent, of course, it'll weaken criticisms of actual terrorism.