Originally posted by NemeBro
No one else actually cares though.I could write an essay on why Ganondorf deserves it for being such an outstanding, everlasting villain in his series, and I have written essays on why Ganondorf is an awesome villain, but I will not. Maybe.
Abel from Xenogears, without a shadow of a doubt. He’s quite easily the deepest, most complex character in all of videogaming, with the most eventful and meaningful life and set of accomplishments you can find. He’s lived multiple lives over thousands of years, being someone distinctly different each time, and his accomplishments can be analysed from multiple dimensions, and are astronomically large in scale. His achievements are of merit from a philosophical PoV, from a spiritual PoV, from a political PoV, from an intellectual PoV, from a psychological PoV, and have long lasting effects on the whole of humanity, the entire universe, the higher dimension, and God himself.
In Abel you originally have a child left stranded on his own, who sorrowfully longs for his mother, makes contact with -The Wave Existence-, and essentially puts into motion a cycle that will see the eternal recurrence of his reincarnation until he is able to free The Wave Existence from the rogue AI, -Deus-. –The Mother-, the first being created by Deus, is created out of Abel’s need for a mother, and splits into Elly –The Antitype- as well as Miang –The Complement-, two figures that will forever play an important role in Abel’s life. As Abel grows up he comes to fall in love with Elly, which essentially acts as the source of an Oedipus complex that will go on to haunt him throughout every one of his multiple lives down the ages. He later goes on to stand in opposition against Cain and his false religion of -Solaris- and the two wage a long and bloody personal war against eachother.
In Kim, you have a ruthless and unethical scientist that makes numerous breakthroughs in the field of nanotechnology that saw a period of unprecedented technological advancement and would have useful applications thousands of years later. He goes on to find a cure for a sterility that had spread across all of humanity, and goes on to have a daughter, Emerelda. He later faces opposition from a specific incarnation of Miang that had awakened inside a set of identical twins and who operated on a sub special existence, and in their opposition Emerelda is taken away from him, whereby he would have to wait thousands of years and many lifetimes until he could be reunited with her again.
In Lacan you have a painter of renowned ability who takes more of a backseat in the state of planetary affairs than his previous incarnations and whose story focuses on his friendship with Krelian and love of Sophia (Elly). He lives a life of pacifism in a world full of tragedy that’s forever changing around him and that he’s powerless to stop. His story is told through the use of dream analysis in the eyes of a later incarnation, Fei. In Grahf, you have an aspect of Lacan that splits after making a second, imperfect contact with The Wave Existence. Out of grief and sorrow over the death of Sophia and his inability to prevent it, part of Lacan dies and Grahf is born out of what remains, a being that represents the Nietzschean ideal of the will to power. Grahf is no different than any other incarnation of Abel in that he is haunted by his Oedypus complex and longs to return to the beginning where everything was one, but unlike the other incarnations he plans to do this by destroying everything around him, and even bringing about the Nietzschean ideal of the Death of God, where only he remains.
In Fei, you have a being who’s very identity is based off of an expansion of Sigmund Freud’s structural model of the human psyche. Originally, you have the sole personality of Fei who faces constant abuse from his mother, and unable to deal with his grief, his personality splits into four distinct parts. The Coward is the aspect that is unable to handle the pain and horror of everything and hides from it. Id is the aspect that is forced to bear the abuse and everything horrible that happens to Fei. The Observer retains some control over the different personalities and observes the outside world from within; he favours Fei over Id and elicits fear in Id; he later acts as the guide by which Fei learns about his mysterious past through the landscape of his very mind itself. Fei is the remaining personality that is most often in control and is left with a case of amnesia and general ignorance of the workings of his mind. Fei and Id both struggle for control over their body. Fei also represents the Nietzschean ideal of the Slayer of God, a purpose that Grahf had been hoping to use him for.
By rejoining with his multiple split personalities (by each personality coming to terms with and accepting the horror their mother had inflicted upon them), by rejoining with Grahf (and becoming a perfect contact again), and by rejoining with his former incarnations (by uncovering the memories of his former lives, and reuniting with his daughter), and through his deep union with Elly, Fei is able to resolve his Oedypus complex, by becoming one with all of his selves, and becoming one with Elly. Together, as one, they are able to free The Wave Dimension from its captivity by Deus, and free the surface dwellers from the hold that Solaris had over it, and protect the entire universe by preventing Deus from returning to power.
With Abel, we are able to examine his character by observing the person he becomes throughout multiple lifetimes over differing conditions. We see him at times of triumph, at times of vulnerability, and we see him play many different roles. We are able to understand his character, by not only observing who he is at the surface, but by delving deeply into the very construct of his mind and his very dreams. We see his different traits manifest within the confines of his personality splitting into different parts in accordance with established psychological theory, and when very aspects of his being cease to exist. And through the resolution of multiple psychological and philosophical conditions and ideals, he is able to fulfil his highest purpose in freeing God from his captivity at the hands of an immensely powerful artificial God.
Who else can be said to deserve it more than Abel? He’s more thoroughly developed than any other character, his lifetime is a long and eventful one, his achievements are as grand as they come, and they operate on every level imaginable.
I hate this thread. I don't know what it wants to be.
Is the award for the character who has done the most in their lifetime? That would be Mario...easily.
Is it for characters who manage to overcome insane universe destroying odds and did something amaze like that? We'd be stuck with Squall as a candidate and...yeah no.
Is it someone who has had a lifetime goal and actually done it (this definition in my opinion is the most suitable)? Cause right now the best argument has been for Eizo, though I can think of others.
Originally posted by NCRotCA
*Ahem*As long as we're discussing it from an in-universe perspective it goes to Abel, easily.
Anybody who's played Xenogears and knows how profound its story is, and how meaningful Abel's role within it was, would agree wholeheartedly.
I read your essay on the topic (I became uninterested quickly but that's because I got tired)
But Abel gets reincarnated?
Yeah, upon forming contact with -The Wave Existence- (God) he becomes -The Contact- and repeatedly gets reincarnated until he completes his mission of freeing TWE from -Deus- (artificial God), which he is finally able to do upon resolving his Oedypus complex (a prevalent theme throughout the story; the setting itself reflects the resolution of the Oedypus complex within Xenogears).
The first and final two paragraphs pretty much sum up why it should be Abel. Though it seems according to the TC's guidelines he may not actually qualify?
Originally posted by NCRotCA
Yeah, upon forming contact with -The Wave Existence- (God) he becomes -The Contact- and repeatedly gets reincarnated until he completes his mission of freeing TWE from -Deus- (artificial God), which he is finally able to do upon resolving his Oedypus complex (a prevalent theme throughout the story; the setting itself reflects the resolution of the Oedypus complex within Xenogears).The first and final two paragraphs pretty much sum up why it should be Abel. Though it seems according to the TC's guidelines he may not actually qualify?
That's all I needed to know. Multiple lifetimes disqualify him I think, since he has more than one lifetime for achievements.
Going by those guidelines, it's Mario with ease.
Originally posted by NCRotCA
Different contexts. Multiple physical lifetimes. A single spiritual lifetime, which I feel is far more relavent when discussing his very character and identity.
Which does not put him on equal terms with other characters and puts him at an unfair advantage. Sorta like Omni-Link.
I don't know if you could really bring fairness into the equation. The advantage that's really being afforded to Abel here is the huge amount of character exploration that he receives (that he lives multiple physical lifetimes is irrelevant; it's that his character is explored in such varying conditions). Character exploration is something that I feel largely defines this topic. I wouldn't view it as an unfair advantage in the same way that I wouldn't view the writers giving a character a huge obstacle to overcome as an unfair advantage, or giving the character a means to overcome the obstacle. These are what defines the character.
But are all the Links truly the same character? All of Abel's incarnations are explored in the same story, are explicitly the same individual, and involve the final incarnation regaining his memories from each previous incarnation. It truly is a single character. But even if you only wanted to include a single incarnation, I'd still say that the incarnation of Fei could qualify.
Originally posted by NCRotCA
I don't know if you could really bring fairness into the equation. The advantage that's really being afforded to Abel here is the huge amount of character exploration that he receives (that he lives multiple physical lifetimes is irrelevant; it's that his character is explored in such varying conditions). Character exploration is something that I feel largely defines this topic. I wouldn't view it as an unfair advantage in the same way that I wouldn't view the writers giving a character a huge obstacle to overcome as an unfair advantage, or giving the character a means to overcome the obstacle. These are what defines the character.
Which comes to my own beliefs that a character's actual character has nothing to do with a lifetime achievement. If the character overcame hardships like their own personal beliefs and feelings, then great. That means they overcame those obstacles and completed their goal. But character itself is not achieving something on its own.
That said, Red FTW! w00t
You can include his achievements under what I stated as character. What I'm saying is that these are the determinents for the journey the character takes over his lifetime and his achievements. I don't think you could say a particular emphasis on a determinent should really qualify as an unfair advantage. Abel's life and achievements are grand, largely because such an emphasis was placed on the exploration of his character and designing his journey in such a way.
I assumed that a lifetime achievement award would relate to what a character had, well, achieved during their lifetime. And this would involve some degree of character, as a basis to show how great their achievements are. Thus Ezio, for his growth into the Grand Master of the Assassin Order and his fight against the Templars, shaping the very future and staving off the enslavement of all mankind.
Originally posted by NCRotCA
You can include his achievements under what I stated as character. What I'm saying is that these are the determinents for the journey the character takes over his lifetime and his achievements. I don't think you could say a particular emphasis on a determinent should really qualify as an unfair advantage. Abel's life and achievements are grand, largely because such an emphasis was placed on the exploration of his character and designing his journey in such a way.
Then just let me explain why I think it's an unfair advantage.
3 lifetimes> 1 lifetime. Compiling everything he does in those lifetimes makes it unbalanced compared to characters with only 1 lifetime.