Lord Mar-vell vs. Team

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
So you feel like A.W. had equivelant feats to Magus(s)? huh? As you just argued... having worlds of followers amped magus power by decent amount. I wasn't sure there was any debate on this issue. Now you're saying they were the same power level?

You're not being clear on what your disagreement is here.

the point that matters here is that when mar-vell incinerated AM, he had just concluded the ritual and had his church there with him.

^ ...

I don't even understand what you guys are arguing with anymore. The statement makes no sense, whatever conclusion you're trying to draw makes no sense.

^ If by "concluded the ritual" you mean Magus had just sacrificed the trillions of beings who had previously been empowering him, then yeah, I agree.

The dude wasn't trans-level without MASSIVE help. Seems pretty obvious, imo.

he sacrificed those worlds, that energy was spent opening the fault and summoning the cancerverse forward, but the churche was still there. so there were still faith reserves he could draw from.

^ Ah. And you have proof he was doing so when Marv blasted him? Seems unlikely.

Originally posted by Galan007
^ At their base levels (ie. no believers empowering them) Adam/Magus are in the HH tier. It's only when they receive a boost from said believers that they transcend that tier.

...And when Marv killed Magus, he wasn't being powered up by his believers.

you're only talking about this one particular arc right.. because in his previous appearances he was also empowered by other worlds.. he had legions of followers. Even in this arc... you are arguing he had followers and thus was able to do what he did.. then say... he had no followers when Marv. attacked him? huh? You think that was the totality of his followers.. the ones that were killed? Why would you think that?

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
... because Adam Magus has other feats completely separate and apart from probable amp-related feats? Which independantly suggest that he is at least as powerful as Adam Warlock was or somewhat stronger, but not enough to justify him transcending that general level of power entirely, and placing him in another tier altogether?

You're not being clear on what your disagreement is here.

So you agree that Adam Magus or Afro Magus are more powerful than A.W. correct? you just don't agree it is a full tier more powerful? I thought you were claiming they were the same power level as A.W. which obviously wasn't the case from all his previous showings and this one where he's always had people empowering him.. that is kinda his thing... you can't look at Adam/Afro Magus at a base level ever.. the whole point of him in every appearance was that he had followers.. Period.. That IS and has BECOME his base level

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
You think that was the totality of his followers.. the ones that were killed? Why would you think that?

There's no reason to assume otherwise, imo.

Originally posted by Galan007
^ Ah. And you have proof he was doing so when Marv blasted him? Seems unlikely.

Originally posted by Galan007
I think in that particular comic, those were to only followers actively empowering him, yes. There's no reason to assume otherwise.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
So you agree that Adam Magus or Afro Magus are more powerful than A.W. correct?

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
you just don't agree it is a full tier more powerful?

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I thought you were claiming they were the same power level as A.W. which obviously wasn't the case from all his previous showings and this one where he's always had people empowering him.. that is kinda his thing... you can't look at Adam/Afro Magus at a base level ever.. the whole point of him in every appearance was that he had followers.. Period.. That IS and has BECOME his base level

I doubt that when Adam Magus was killing members of the Imperial Guard, he had trillions of believers preparing for those kills and chanting an incantation for that purpose.

Adam Magus has separate feats from the Universal Church of Truth. Trying to conflate them makes no sense. Might as well argue that Hal Jordan who has tapped into the entirety of the Cenral Power Battery several times for specific crises catapults him out of herald-level.

Originally posted by 753
they were fighting inside a humongous church ship which IIRC was filled with worshippers being harvested. dont recall if they had a significant military presence there.

Originally posted by Galan007
I think in that particular comic, those were the only followers actively empowering him, yes... When they were gone, Magus' boost was gone.

There's no reason to assume otherwise, imo.

This is my point... please point to ANY narration that says the were ALL of his followers. That makes no logical sense...as his past appearances suggest.. he had worlds upon worlds of followers. Not ONLY 4 or 5 planets of followers. If you have ANY narration saying that was the totality of his followers I would be more than happy to see that my friend. If not, the only assumptions going on here are that they were THE only followers. Furthermore, we know that they weren't, because he had more on his ship. This dispells the notion right there that this was ALL the followers he had and when the planets were destroyed.. that was all the people worshiping him.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I agree that he is at least as powerful, if not slightly more. Also, he used his power far more viciously. Right. At least, I haven't seen anything yet that would suggest so. ... this makes no sense. You had trillions of believers contributing to a feat to bust multiple planets by specifically preparing for it and chanting an incantation for that purpose.

I doubt that when Adam Magus was killing members of the Imperial Guard, he had trillions of believers preparing for those kills and chanting an incantation for that purpose.

Adam Magus has separate feats from the Universal Church of Truth. Trying to conflate them makes no sense. Might as well argue that Hal Jordan who has tapped into the entirety of the Cenral Power Battery several times for specific crises catapults him out of herald-level.

Here is where the problem lies in your thinking and the comparison you tried to make. Hal doing something on a few occasions of course can't be coflated to a normal Hal. I agree. Difference here is that Magus in EVERY appearance he's made HAD these followers empowering him. That was his whole thing in EVERY appearance he's ever been in. It has always been an permanent amp of sorts. There hasn't been one appearance of his where he didn't have worshipers empowering him. Thus that IS his base level for Magus. That IS the difference between him and A.W. and it's a CONSTANT difference. When something is constant in every appearances, it no longer becomes an amp, it becomes their base line level.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
This is my point... please point to ANY narration that says the were ALL of his followers. That makes no logical sense...as his past appearances suggest.. he had worlds upon worlds of followers. Not ONLY 4 or 5 planets of followers. If you have ANY narration saying that was the totality of his followers I would be more than happy to see that my friend. If not, the only assumptions going on here are that they were THE only followers. Furthermore, we know that they weren't, because he had more on his ship. This dispells the notion right there that this was ALL the followers he had and when the planets were destroyed.. that was all the people worshiping him.

What we have is narration saying that there were trillions of worshipers (between the planets and the space cruisers) who, accoring to Magus himself, were all chanting the same incantations in preparation for "THIS ONE act" (the detonation of said worlds.) After that, there is no indication whatsoever that he was still receiving any sort of boost.

Originally posted by Galan007
No sense in me proving a negative, my friend.

What we have is narration saying that there were trillions of worshipers (between the planets and the space cruisers) who, accoring to Magus himself, were all chanting the same incantations in preparation for "THIS ONE act" (the detonation of said worlds.) After that, there is no indication whatsoever that he was still receiving any sort of boost.

That is the thing my friend, you can't use the proving a negative fallacy as that isn't what is going on here. You have yet to show any narration stating that those planets were the only people empowering him. We know the planets weren't as that huge ship also had followers. You also remember the previous appearances of Magus right? He had worlds and worlds of followers IIRC spanning different galaxies/universes. That was his whole thing and what made him stronger than A.W. That is why his base line is ALWAYS going to be significantly more powerful than A.W. because he always has appeared with his followers amp.

Now you want me to believe he would destroy planets with the TOTALITY of his followers and not leave anymore? Come on my friend, you and I both know that makes no logical sense to do that. Further makes no logical sense that 4 or 5 planets were the totality of his followers when we've been shown in the past that he had much more than that. All that proves to more than just those 4 or 5 planets being it. Unless of course you have ANY narration stating that those were ALL his followers.. or even.. magus just killed all his followers... if Magus killed of everybody empowering him.. you think that would be a pretty key factor and something that would've been mentioned eh? So, please don't say you have to prove a negative... you still have yet to prove this was all his followers and it goes against common sense and logic. As I said, please point me to any narration saying this was all his followers and he no longer had any amp from anybody anymore.

^ You've missed many of the points I have made, my friend.

I never said the trillionS of worshipers empowering Magus at the time were contained to the 18-or-so worlds/moons that appeared. Otherwise that would equate to a minimum of roughly 111,111,111,111.1 people per world/moon (just a smidgen overpopulated, don't you think?) So like I said before, the followers who were aboard his cruisers must have also been empowering him when he destroyed said planets -- hence Worldmind's comment:
http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/4192/thanos012.jpg
"They're preparing for something big."

What was the belief energy of all those worshipers being used for? Well according to Magus himself (the guy who was channeling it), it was being used for "this ONE act" (destroying the planets):
http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/3650/thanos017.jpg

To suggest that Magus was using the energy for anything other than the "ONE act" he specifically stated it was being used for, leads to a purely opinion-driven argument -- and those don't tend to hold up well.

Originally posted by Galan007
No sense in me proving a negative, my friend.

What we have is narration saying that there were trillions of worshipers (between the planets and the space cruisers) who, accoring to Magus himself, were all chanting the same incantations in preparation for "THIS ONE act" (the detonation of said worlds.) After that, there is no indication whatsoever that he was still receiving any sort of boost.

This was your quote my friend

First let me say I don't disagree now that they empowered him to do that act by all of them chanting at once. I see that point since you made it. The issue there, is that I'm not sure he couldn't have destroyed many planets even without this amp. However, that is all speculation on both our parts on what he could have done without it. I agree those followers allowed him to pull off what he did.

The point I am questioning (and as you can see from your above quote) is that this were ALL of his followers and once the planets were destroyed he had NO followers left and no more amp. As i stated before, you do remember the Magus previous appearances right? He had galaxies/worlds/universe of followers that were empowering him in every appearance. You were making the claim that he had no amp after the planets were destroyed as that was the extent of his followers. What I'm asking for is any narration stating that to be the case. It defies logical sense that you would kill off ALL of your followers that make you more powerful and allow you to perform feats you wouldn't normally be able to do. That defies common sense to do that. Thus, since it was NEVER stated this was all of his followers, only thing it suggest is that these were what was needed to perform said act, not the totality of all his followers. Thus, if there is zero narration stating this was all of his followers, we must then assume he has more elsewhere on other planets, ships, worlds and the would still be empowering him and worshiping him. As we've seen from his previous appearance his worshipers don't have to be right next to him for him to get an amp from their worship. Thus, your point about no indication he had any amp, would only be the case if ALL of his followers were destroyed, and that is the narration I'm looking for my friend.

^ That's just it, you're trying to dispute on panel narrative, with your own personal opinions/assumptions. It doesn't work that way. Magus stated that the worshipers were chanting the same incantation in preparation for "ONE act" (plural.) There is absolutely no proof he was still being amped after that "ONE act" was preformed.

That being said, I have nothing else to prove. The burden lies solely on you to prove Magus was still being empowered during that comic, after the planets were destroyed and his "ONE act" had been carried out. Until I see that evidence, there is no reason to keep up this part of the debate.