ROTS Sidious & ROTS Dooku vs TFU Marek & TFU Vader

Started by NCRotCA5 pages

Zampano:

1. I'm currently downloading Crystal Star so I'll be able to post the passage in a short while but I'm pretty sure it was a direct manipulation of the molecules, and while they are indeed Skywalkers, they were still children with limited training at the time, they performed it in a controlled manner suggesting it wasn't an out of ordinary, greater than usual exhaustion of their full potential, and that it was a demonstration of precision would also rely on a significant level of control (as well as power), something not derived from their strength in the Force. Interestingly enough though, now that I'm looking at the passage from Dark Rendezvous again I'm pretty sure what you're suggesting could actually be said for Dooku in this scenario:

"Mantises squirmed and hunted in the vision over his desk. He snapped off the holocron and consulted a monitor.

"Ah. Our latest batch of guests is arriving. Loyal beings and true, for the Trade Federation cause and a ten percent profit. Go meet them at the door. You always make such an impression on visitors."

"Don't patronize me," Asajj said coldly.

Dooku looked around. "Or what?"

Her face went pale. Dooku lifted that one finger, and this time he tapped it in the air, as if pushing a needle into a pincushion. Ventress crumpled to her knees. Her voice came out clotted with pain.

"Please," she said. "Don't."

"It doesn't feel very good, does it? Like sharp stones in your throat and chest."

Dooku made another little patting motion, and Ventress slammed to the tile floor.

"It's the blood vessels I hate," Dooku said. "The way they stretch inside, like balloons about to pop."

"P-p-p-please..."

"But worse than anything is the memories," he said, more softly still. "They crowd around, like flies on meat. Every despicable thing, every petty vice, every little act of spite."

A cruel, strange quiet stretched out as Ventress panted on the stone floor. Rain ticked against the window glass, and the Count's soft voice went dark and far away.

"All the things you should have stopped, but didn't, and nothing will ever be right again. And the things you've done," he whispered. "By the pitiless stars, the things you've done..."

The comm on Dooku's desk beeped. He shook his head, like a man waking from a dream.

"The Troxan delegation is at the door."

Ventress crawled to her feet. Her face was bruised and her cheeks were wet with tears. Both pretended not to notice.

"Tell them I'll be right down," Count Dooku said."

Nothing suggests that it was a direct manipulation of her blood vessels or that it was anywhere near as precisely performed as you've described.

2. Even if Dooku did directly effect her blood vessels or not Vergere's display would still be significantly more impressive. The difference in scale is pretty huge.

3. Not that I'm the most knowledgable individual on the subject but do sub-atomic particles not exist in the real world? This seems to suggest as much: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subatomic_particle. And even if they didn't, they would exist within the Star Wars Universe regardless, and the scale would still operate within the confines of an atom.

Nebaris, Dooku's display is not precise because it takes place on a small scale. Mere scale is not the deciding factor. Rather, a feat is impressively precise when error in any direction ultimately dooms the effort. Thus, from the textual description, Bane's feat is very impressive because the margin of error is so slim. Veregre's, depending on the description of the feat, may have been similarly impressive. (Depending on what exactly the book says that she manipulated.) The Skywalkers' feat is not impressive or an indication of skill because they could have poured too much energy into the endeavor, or too little, and still met with some success.

Dooku's applied TK is impressive, to me, because if he had pushed to hard he would have utterly ruined Ventress. Her body would be utterly annihilated. The effective range of force he could apply was so small, and the consequences of a mistake were so great, that success seems quite impressive indeed.

I'm not sure we disagree on this matter. What you're saying is that the impressive nature of these displays of precision relies on their ability to distinguish objects of a certain scale from anything around it? Well that's essentially what I'm saying as well; just to clarify, I'm saying that the scale is of merit when the Force is applied directly onto it; it's what Bane did when he created his holocron, it's what Vergere did, and it's also what the Solo children did. They didn't merely indirectly cause an effect on such a scale, it was applied exactly on that scale.

And as the passage shows Dooku can't really be said to have done anything nearly as precise as what you're saying.

Nphthys:

I'll post the passage when it downloads (which could take a while, I couldn't select the individual book from the torrent I'm using so I have to download like a thousand books before I get to access it... 😐 ) but it was done in a compeltely controlled manner from what I remember, and not accidentally.

Perhaps but I believe there are multiple accounts of Jedi/Sith making them through use of the Force. And there is indeed the possibility you mention.

You're willingly downloading Crystal Star?

Eww...

Perhaps but I believe there are multiple accounts of Jedi/Sith making them through use of the Force. And there is indeed the possibility you mention.

All I can recall is Bane's. And even then iirc he was just making sure it was perfect. I don't recall it actually saying he constructed the entire thing with the Force.

Well maybe not but the sub-atomic alterations themselves were.

What you're saying is that the impressive nature of these displays of precision relies on their ability to distinguish objects of a certain scale from anything around it?

No. I believe that the distance within which these events takes place is utterly irrelevant. Thus, Starkiller's manipulation of the falling Star Destroyer could be called extraordinarily skillful if he had guided it more precisely. Skill is the ability with which you control your power. Forcing a trillion-ton starship to the ground requires a great deal of power. Placing it down exactly where you want it requires skill.

Bane's feat is impressive because he succeeded within a very small margin of error. What you've said of the children suggests that there was no consequence to overzealous application of power. In Bane's case, there certainly was.

Hopefully, with this more fully explained definition of skill as "discretionary application of power" you will be able to see that this is the most natural categorical division of skill and power.

Anakin's Force scream was powerful. He brought down a building. Darth Bane's Force wave in PoD was powerful. He would have "liquidized" Kas'im the Magnificent. Darth Sidious's Force lightning was powerful. It reduced a large amount of Sith Wyrm to ash. These are not indications of exceptional skill--despite their flashiness-- except insofar as channeling the Force in large quantities requires skill.

Bane's holocron required skill. If any aspect of his manipulations was off, even by the smallest amount, his attempt would have failed. This happened several times. I would argue that Dooku's technique also required skill to ensure that he did not accidentally kill or overwhelm Ventress. The line "the way [blood vessels] stretch inside, like balloons about to pop" does not really allow for a purely mental experience. Humans do not have nerves inside their blood vessels, and to have sensations from that part of the body is a novel experience, to say the least. Thus, the technique requires actual force to be applied, as though physically inflaming the blood vessels involved in causing a migraine.

What I am impressed with is the way that incredibly fragile membranes like those in blood vessels are stretched but not broken. It is very easy to bruise. Think about how easily the capillaries around eyes are broken. To stress but not overwhelm that substance requires great control, and is what has impressed me.

3. Not that I'm the most knowledgable individual on the subject but do sub-atomic particles not exist in the real world? This seems to suggest as much: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subatomic_particle. And even if they didn't, they would exist within the Star Wars Universe regardless, and the scale would still operate within the confines of an atom.


There were no particles, there were just clouds of amplitude in a multiparticle configuration space and what his brain fondly imagined to be an eraser was nothing except a gigantic factor in a wavefunction that happened to factorize, it didn't have a separate existence any more than there was a particular solid factor of 3 hidden inside the number 6...

This is as close to an eloquent explanation as I'll be able to give you without synthesizing the entirety of LessWrong's Quantum Physics Sequence.

I think you're looking at it from a slightly different angle then I am. That there is tiny margin of error is impressive, but that is because the small MoE provides a necessity for a certain scale to be directly affected, i.e. the individual cannot afford to operate outside of the given scale, so he has to directly meet that exact scale. It's as impressive, but it's not the "end" of what we're discussing. The "end" would be directly operating on that scale. That there may have been a significantly large MoE for the Solo children is inconsequential as they still directly operated on the given scale regardless. A minimal MoE can require a certain scale to be directly impacted, but a minimal MoE isn't in itself required for a certain scale to be directly impacted.

As Yoda likes to say, "size matters not." Any agent is capable of operating on any scale. The question is whether or not they will be capable of restraining (or extending) their abilities to be effective in that range. It wouldn't be difficult to move an electron, but moving it where you want it would be.

This can be seen in Luke's method of learning the weather control technique in one of the earlier FotJ books. He just drifted through his catalog of mindsets. Each mindset operated in a different "scale" or "realm." The next step was allocating the proper amount (and direction) of power into the technique. That is what I mean by skill.

I still think we're talking about the same thing. Operating directly on a given scale corresponds with the ability to distinguish objects of that scale from everything around it, to restrain their abilities to that scale etc. and if one were able to target the electron directly in the first place, moving it in a controlled fashion wouldn't require any real greater level of control.

Can I still do anything? she wondered. Anything at all?
She imagined the molecules of air all around her. She imagined one molecule. She imagined it moving,
faster and faster. She felt the molecule respond.
Hethrir's power did not react. She knew it was around her, she could feel its attention off in the distance.
But it did not notice the tiny motion she created.
She added another molecule, another, doubling and redoubling the number she affected. Soon a small
handful of air vibrated with her energy.
Its warmth took the chill from her cell.
The swirl of air glowed red, then yellow, spreading light into the corners of Jaina's cell.
Jaina laughed with relief and joy.

The Crystal Star, Page 92

So as can be seen she targets the air molecule directly to begin with.

Can't all Jedi do that though? I mean, a Force Push is really just a concussive burst of pressurised air.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Can't all Jedi do that though? I mean, a Force Push is really just a concussive burst of pressurised air.

I'm not entirely sure, if a force push is essentially that.
Remember, Jedi can use force in the vacuum of space, so I see no reason why a force push should be limited to a burst of air. Rather it is a force directly applied to push an opponent, just as force grip is a force applied to hold sth/sb.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Can't all Jedi do that though? I mean, a Force Push is really just a concussive burst of pressurised air.

It would still be a collective amount of air molecules of a pretty ordinary scale they would be directly affecting, and not each individual molecule.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Can't all Jedi do that though? I mean, a Force Push is really just a concussive burst of pressurised air.
You sure? I also thought it was a wave or burst Force energy itself. In the NJO series, Tahiri used the Force to compress air to kill a Vong. I assume there's similar mechanics at play.

'Force Push was the ability to create a telekinetic impulse via the Force, launching a concussive burst of pressurized air-not unlike the blast of an archaic 'pipe bomb'- that would impact a target with enough force to knock it over, launch it into the air, or even (particularly in the case of fragile materials such as ceramics) shatter it into pieces. The greater the user's telekinetic aptitude, the larger the pressure differential, and thus the stronger the effect and the heavier the target. With practice, a skilled Force user could increase the range and arc of the blast without lowering the average kinetic energy, creating a blanketed wave instead of a focused impulse. Truly gifted practitioners could generate a concussive blast that would radiate from them for dozens of meters in all directions, detonating with the force of a conventional explosive.'-Wookiepedia

So... it's wind?

Luke: Do the windy thing

Luke suddenly does the windy thing.

Yeah, its wind. Gosh, call yourselves Star Wars experts? You don't even know what a Force Push is. 🙄

Using telekinesis to move the wind to move the object...

I detect an unnecessary middleman in this transaction.

I guess if you just pushed or pulled them around it wouldn't really do much, whereas a Force push is an actual physical force hitting the target. *shrugs*

Also:

YouTube video

4.00 onwards. You can't argue with results. edit: Actually, watching that its pretty obvious thats its wind. How did we miss that?

See I always thought (part in thanks to the video-games' animations), that a Force Push was a concentrated or semi-concentrated "ball" of Force energy that moved everything in it's path, the air included. Hence the "wind" effect.