Originally posted by Ushgarak
Seeing as Dooku was effectively contributing to that corruption, then no, that was not the reason.
I thought the dismantling of the senate was, in fact, getting rid of the corruption from more than just Dooku's opinion. The seante, tied in with the Jedi Order, was "corrupt" in Dooku's opinion. We even "hear" a line about it (forcing all to have to live under a dictator) from Anakin as he's talking to Sidious in his office in Episode III. We know that Dooku lost his faith in the order after the battle of Galidraan. Dooku thought the Order was corrupt and tied into the senate on a most corrupt level.
In more simple words, I disagree with your assessment of the plot. This does not mean that I cannot have my mind changed, however. I am not set in stone of my opinion on Dooku's motives.
Clarification: Is the EU "Dooku: Origins"* an acceptable explanation for Dooku's motives? I read over the rules and it does appear that direct movie tie-ins are acceptable by Ushgarak. But is that directly applicable to the Battle of Galidraan? If not, we still have Dooku's words that almost paint the picture of his lost faith in the order and senate due to corruption. We also know that Dooku, just like any other fallen Jedi, had to be seduced to the dark side.
*That's not the name of a real novel or comic. That's just a blanket term I made up to describe Dooku's distaste and eventual secession from the Order/Republic.
Originally posted by dadudemon
I thought the dismantling of the senate was, in fact, getting rid of the corruption from more than just Dooku's opinion. The seante, tied in with the Jedi Order, was "corrupt" in Dooku's opinion. We even "hear" a line about it (forcing all to have to live under a dictator) from Anakin as he's talking to Sidious in his office in Episode III. We know that Dooku lost his faith in the order after the battle of Galidraan. Dooku thought the Order was corrupt and tied into the senate on a most corrupt level.In more simple words, I disagree with your assessment of the plot. This does not mean that I cannot have my mind changed, however. I am not set in stone of my opinion on Dooku's motives.
Except he wasn't going to dismantle the Senate, which does not happen until 20 years after the Sith takeover and 22 years after his death (in favour of even more corrupt local governors). He was going to help rule with the connivance of the corrupt politicians and he was backing the most corrupt of them all- the corporate interests which were the very things Qui-Gon had disliked. You may disagree all you like, but your assessment does not fit the facts. Dooku was part of the corruption. As queeq noted, his stated source of the corruption was a Sith Lord. But as he was WORKING for that Lord... yeah? Puts that speech in a different context- i.e. all lies.
We're not interested in any EU sources in this section seeing as the entire argument is that his motives were not explored in the films- and any books on the matter are purely speculative. We can all speculate.
So basicaly everybody agrees that Dooku never showed us his intentions into joining the sith, all we know after see the movies is that the old man was once a jedi that left the order by the time of TPM and joined Sidious.
We know nothing else. Yeah, we know he hired Jango to make the clone army and he was doing war for sidious and all that but, from dooku himself, we know nothing, much less his personal motivations.
Anyway, about the investigation, I guess we can say that Ob1 found out that Jango "originated" the clone army by the order of a dead jedi master, and then Jango tells him that a "Tyranus" hired hm (pretty obvious name for a sith lord don't you think? Maybe Obi1 should have meditated on that 🙄 ), and THEN he finds out that Jango was Padme's assassin and was linked to a sith lord. Hey, what about not using the clone army? Or, at least after the Genosis battle, stop using the clone army?
You see, there are absolutely no reason for this to happen in a minimal logic reality, meaning using this clone army in a 3 years war without even trying to look on this issue.
The logic of why the Jedi adopted the Clone army is not literally impossible to reconcile, but it IS a big enough of a deal for it to have deserved to have been at least mentioned on-screen.
But the whole Kamino/Geonosis mystery- from what exactly killing Padme would do to who Sifo-Days was to the immediate adoption of the clones to Dooku's motivations- were entirely dropped from any attempt at explanation by Episode III.
(I'm not even sure how the Republic was meant to find the Clones- Obi-Wan blew the plan early in AOTC by being able to trace Jango's weapon, but that was not the Sith's plan. So how were the Clones meant to fit into the picture?)
This is in part because the PT has too much plot- at least four films' worth. Pacing wise, it was probably sensible to drop al that from ROTS. However, looking at the trilogy overall, it leaves AOTC in a right mess.
Originally posted by Ushgarak
The logic of why the Jedi adopted the Clone army is not literally impossible to reconcile, but it IS a big enough of a deal for it to have deserved ti have been at least mentioned on-screen.But the whole Kamino/Geonosis mystery- from what exactly killing Padme would do to who Sifo-Days was to the immediate adoption of the clones to Dooku's motivations- were entirely dropped from any attempt at explanation by Episode III.
(I'm not even sure how the Republic was meant to find the Clones- Obi-Wan blew the plan early in AOTC by being able to trace Jango's weapon, but that was not the Sith's plan. So how were the Clones met to fit into the picture?)
This is in part because the PT has too much plot- at least four films' worth. Pacing wise, it was probably sensible to drop al that from ROTS. However, looking at the trilogy overall, it leaves AOTC in a right mess.
It may of been palps plan all along to have the Jedi find the clones on kameno and the deal with trying to kill padme was one for the viceroy cause he wants her dead plus to get her out of the capital so they push through the clone army.
That evades the central point- HOW were the Jedi meant to find the Clones?
The Viceroy, ultimately, didn't seem to care about Padme- and the idea that her vote would have stopped the Clone Wars from happening doesn't actually make any wider sense- The Confederacy would still have invaded. Would the Senate have just sat around waiting to be destroyed? The idea that building an army was ever in doubt makes no sense- by making the Confederacy, Palpatine had already won that battle as it meant the Republic had no choice.
Originally posted by darthmaul1
It may of been palps plan all along to have the Jedi find the clones on kameno and the deal with trying to kill padme was one for the viceroy cause he wants her dead plus to get her out of the capital so they push through the clone army.
So that's why they deleted Kamino from the Jedi Archives and no official sources on Coruscant can identify a dart? OB1 has to go to a seedy diner to ask its boss...
No, it's quite a big mess...
And why Jango keeps residence on Kamino for ten yeras is alos beyond me... but that's beside the point I think. 😉
Actually, that's a great point Queeq.
Anyway, this reminds of TPM plot. Sidious made the Naboo blockade in order to become chancellor, so the most useful thing that could have happened to Sidious would be Qui-gon and Obi-wan's return to Coruscant right? Then why did he tried to kill them several times?
See, they could have easily been killed by viceroy after all they were just 2 of them all by themselves on his ship, while not really expecting an attack. And even in Tantoine, if Maul killed Qui-gon and then proceded the butchery to the rest of the passengers and captured the queen, won't that blow his chance to become the space's Hitler?
The republic didn't want to create an army and padme was one of the primary voices against it. And as for maul trying to kill the Jedi, that was part of his plan too. (at last we will reveal our selves to the Jedi at last we will have revenge.) it may or may have not gone as he had forseen. But it still worked out.
Originally posted by Ushgarak
Except he wasn't going to dismantle the Senate, which does not happen until 20 years after the Sith takeover and 22 years after his death (in favour of even more corrupt local governors). He was going to help rule with the connivance of the corrupt politicians and he was backing the most corrupt of them all- the corporate interests which were the very things Qui-Gon had disliked. You may disagree all you like, but your assessment does not fit the facts. Dooku was part of the corruption. As queeq noted, his stated source of the corruption was a Sith Lord. But as he was WORKING for that Lord... yeah? Puts that speech in a different context- i.e. all lies.We're not interested in any EU sources in this section seeing as the entire argument is that his motives were not explored in the films- and any books on the matter are purely speculative. We can all speculate.
Well, in that case, I agree that we don't quite have the whole picture for Dooku. However, we can almost paint the picture. It requires Jedi vs. Sith guide book in order to get the complete picture for Dooku's motives.
Which again shows how flawed these movies are. You have no idea what's really going on.
Just like in TPM:
Originally posted by Darth Angel
Actually, that's a great point Queeq.Anyway, this reminds of TPM plot. Sidious made the Naboo blockade in order to become chancellor, so the most useful thing that could have happened to Sidious would be Qui-gon and Obi-wan's return to Coruscant right? Then why did he tried to kill them several times?
See, they could have easily been killed by viceroy after all they were just 2 of them all by themselves on his ship, while not really expecting an attack. And even in Tantoine, if Maul killed Qui-gon and then proceded the butchery to the rest of the passengers and captured the queen, won't that blow his chance to become the space's Hitler?
The TPM political story is so weird that I still don't get what the fuss was all about. For Palpy to reach the status of chancellor all he obviously needed was to discredit Valorum. So the more mayhem and destruction on Naboo, the more it would have showed how Valorum was incapable. Why Sidious was so vehemently trying to hide this info from the Senate is beyond me.
Also, the revelation to the Jedi: what was the point about that? "Hey, we're Sith, you know we want to wipe you out, well, here we are again. Yoohooooo! Oops, we lost one of us.... Well, this isn't the end of it, you'll hear from us yet!"
I suppose if you want to 'reveal' yourself to take revenge, you do that by TAKING revenge. Not to reveal yourself and then pop up 12 years later and say: I revealed myself 12 years ago, but now I come to take revenge. I always felt the whole issue of Palpy's rise to power is NOT to reveal yourself so you can go about your business in secret since the Dark Side clouds everything anyway. The Dark Side seems to be more about concealing than revealing.
I really do feel Lucas made a mistake in writing these films all on his own. He's not the best writer around. It shows from the OT scripts that he always had quite a good idea about the concept and construct of the story, but at the OT time he had a lot of long debates and arguments over ther scripts. Kerschner and Kasdan added, changed, improved so much slugging through every scene to make it all work. Clearly the PT script lack that kind of thorough thinking through.
Originally posted by queeq
Which again shows how flawed these movies are. You have no idea what's really going on.
I had no trouble following what was going on, though. I know you didn't either, more so than I did.
Originally posted by queeq
The TPM political story is so weird that I still don't get what the fuss was all about. For Palpy to reach the status of chancellor all he obviously needed was to discredit Valorum. So the more mayhem and destruction on Naboo, the more it would have showed how Valorum was incapable. Why Sidious was so vehemently trying to hide this info from the Senate is beyond me.
I think it's much more simple.
Federation makes a blockade due to the trade routes and taxes. This was a "cover" so Palps could rise to power.
The outcome of that conflict did not matter, at all. The goal was to use that situation as a jumping platform and it was executed perfectly: a vote of non-confidence in the Chancellor with a "sympathy" vote for Palpatine due to Naboo's situation.
Originally posted by queeq
Also, the revelation to the Jedi: what was the point about that? "Hey, we're Sith, you know we want to wipe you out, well, here we are again. Yoohooooo! Oops, we lost one of us.... Well, this isn't the end of it, you'll hear from us yet!"
No, that's not what it was about.
It was to scare the Jedi, create confusion, and so forth. It was more psychological than anything. It succeeded in sewing the seeds of doubt into the Jedi. Some (friends) have suggested that this was part of his plans to get Anakin admitted to the Jedi so he could bring them down through visions he foresaw of Anakin. The council, though intially against it, were more willing to "let it fly" since the revelation of the Sith, again, to the Jedi. Had they not done that, Obi Wan would have been kicked out of the order had he tried to train and submit Anakin for the Jedi Trials. I think that last theory is almost baseless, but does well to explain a few things.
As we know, the outcome of Maul versus Gin and Wan fight did not matter.
Originally posted by queeq
I suppose if you want to 'reveal' yourself to take revenge, you do that by TAKING revenge. Not to reveal yourself and then pop up 12 years later and say: I revealed myself 12 years ago, but now I come to take revenge. I always felt the whole issue of Palpy's rise to power is NOT to reveal yourself so you can go about your business in secret since the Dark Side clouds everything anyway. The Dark Side seems to be more about concealing than revealing.
Taking his revenge took that long. Palps was definitely a tactical genius. It took him many years to exact revenge, on behalf of the Sith, upon the Jedi, for destroying their order, so many years ago. That's why it is called "Revenge of the Sith" right?
If you want to keep it entirely within the universe, it's against the concept of the Jedi and the oppression against Dark Side teachings. Mace stated that the Sith were a much greater force than before. So we know that something had to occur that wiped out the Sith. Obviously, that was the Jedi.
Originally posted by queeq
I really do feel Lucas made a mistake in writing these films all on his own. He's not the best writer around. It shows from the OT scripts that he always had quite a good idea about the concept and construct of the story, but at the OT time he had a lot of long debates and arguments over ther scripts. Kerschner and Kasdan added, changed, improved so much slugging through every scene to make it all work. Clearly the PT script lack that kind of thorough thinking through.
I don't. I enjoyed the stories ever so slightly more than the originals.
I think most of the problems you have named of the story aren't actually problems but specific voids left out for use by the EU because GL was thinking about his pocket when he wrote the stories. But that's no different than what GL had done with Empire and Jedi.
Originally posted by Ushgarak
But as he did anyway, the Jedi's triumph in freeing Naboo seems trivial, especially as the Feds carried on as normal afterwards.
This. 👆
The outcome of that conflict meant nothing, only that the conflict existed. Palps even states that his "promotion" would take time to create a favorable resolution, and Padme is like "WHAT!?!?!? Noooo waaaay" and wants to free her people, asap. So, a "win" for Naboo would have happened, regardless, so that wasn't Palps real motivation: it was becoming chancellor.
Originally posted by dadudemon
The outcome of that conflict did not matter, at all.As we know, the outcome of Maul versus Gin and Wan fight did not matter.
The outcome of that conflict meant nothing, only that the conflict existed.
That's a lot of stuff that doesn't matter or mean anything. It takes up a whole lot of screen time for something that doesn't matter. That's exactly where the problem lies: TPM doesn't matter.
It's just one of these things. In the end TPM tells us two things:
a) That Palpy becaomes chancellor
b) That Anakin is found and starts his training
Now, why do we need 2 hour+ movie to tell us two basic announcements, that don't really matter all too much in the end anyway? We see Palpy become chancelor but it doesn't mean anything because officially we don't know he's Sith anyway.
Originally posted by dadudemon
It was to scare the Jedi, create confusion, and so forth. It was more psychological than anything. It succeeded in sewing the seeds of doubt into the Jedi. Some (friends) have suggested that this was part of his plans to get Anakin admitted to the Jedi so he could bring them down through visions he foresaw of Anakin. The council, though intially against it, were more willing to "let it fly" since the revelation of the Sith, again, to the Jedi. Had they not done that, Obi Wan would have been kicked out of the order had he tried to train and submit Anakin for the Jedi Trials. I think that last theory is almost baseless, but does well to explain a few things.
And where exactly do we see these things in the movies?
Originally posted by dadudemon
I think most of the problems you have named of the story aren't actually problems but specific voids left out for use by the EU because GL was thinking about his pocket when he wrote the stories. But that's no different than what GL had done with Empire and Jedi.
It's very different from ESB and ROTJ. Everything that happens in these movies are focussed on a clear goal. In the PT a lot happens that doesn't matter, is irrelevant, doesn't propel the story forwards, things gets mentioned and/or repeated about which we don't really know what it means. The PT movies let us in on a whole lot of irrelevant stuff but very little on the more important bits, like motivations, reasons, cause and consequence etc etc... You don't see very much of that in the OT.
Originally posted by dadudemon
Palps even states that his "promotion" would take time to create a favorable resolution, and Padme is like "WHAT!?!?!? Noooo waaaay" and wants to free her people, asap. So, a "win" for Naboo would have happened, regardless, so that wasn't Palps real motivation: it was becoming chancellor.
I know that. But mind you: the entire movie is about freeing Naboo, about resolving the conflict, about getting the queen urgently to Coruscant and back, and about saving people who supposedly are suffering. There seems to be a lot at stake... but in the end.... there isn't. And most of what you've seen, doesn't really matter.
I remember watching TPM with my oldest when he was about 5 or six. And since I'm not from an English speaking country, I was reading him the subtitles... And as I did, I read out a lot of this: taxation of trade routes, politics and senate talk, vote of no confidence, resignation of Chancellor, plead the Senate... And I was thinking: OMG this is ooo boring... and what would he understand of this? Jar Jar made it a kiddy movie, the political stuff is extremely boring and not of much interest for a kid that age...
Originally posted by queeq
That's a lot of stuff that doesn't matter or mean anything. It takes up a whole lot of screen time for something that doesn't matter. That's exactly where the problem lies: TPM doesn't matter.
You do realize that I could actually say that about 90% of everything in all of the Star Wars films, if you applied my reasons for saying those things in context, right?
Lemme be less cryptic by rephrasing.
Sure, it matters, for the story and the characters. But it doesn't matter for Palps over all plans. If you applied my statements, in context, to all of the other plot elements, very few things would matter.
Originally posted by queeq
It's just one of these things. In the end TPM tells us two things:
a) That Palpy becaomes chancellor
b) That Anakin is found and starts his trainingNow, why do we need 2 hour+ movie to tell us two basic announcements, that don't really matter all too much in the end anyway? We see Palpy become chancelor but it doesn't mean anything because officially we don't know he's Sith anyway.
But. watch, I can do similar things to the OT (which I absolutely hate doing)...
At the end of ANH, we learn only one thing:
1. There's hope for the rebels to defeat the Empire.
That's not really an accurate portrayal of TPM and neither is an accurate portrayal of ANH.
We learn so many things its absurd.
1. Anakin started his training late with anger, hate, and fear which may have contributed to his downfall and the fall of the old Jedi Order.
2. We experience Obi Wan's master which shows us a great deal for Obi Wan's OT awesomeness.
3. The Sith's rise to power.
4. The old Jedi Order and how it operates.
5. How powerful the force users were back in the "old days" with regimented training.
6. More information about how the force works.
And so forth. I could go on, but you get the point.
Originally posted by queeq
And where exactly do we see these things in the movies?
In the Jedi Council room in TPM. I think it's about middle of the way through. I haven't seen TPM but two times and the last time I saw it was back in 2001...so I could be mistaken.
Originally posted by queeq
It's very different from ESB and ROTJ. Everything that happens in these movies are focussed on a clear goal. In the PT a lot happens that doesn't matter, is irrelevant, doesn't propel the story forwards, things gets mentioned and/or repeated about which we don't really know what it means. The PT movies let us in on a whole lot of irrelevant stuff but very little on the more important bits, like motivations, reasons, cause and consequence etc etc... You don't see very much of that in the OT.
You do know that GL said himself to Mark Hamill that a lot of stuff he thought of the the OT was merchandising related so he could make more money off of it, right? There's no difference except that GL got to prepare more fully for the PT.
Additionally, what was the point of killing of Grand Moff Tarkin other than killing one of the best Villains of the Empire to get revenge for the audience for Alderaan?? I remember, even as a kid, wondering why such an intelligent commander that could even stay the evil and powerful hand of Vader, would die so soon (because my grandmother had the other 2 VHS tapes, ready for me to watch...she's a big Star Wars fan, too! 😆) /whining
Anyway, why did the Death Star get destroyed just to have another one built in a really fast time? How is that possible? (Sure, vast resources, etc. etc.) It seemed redundant as a plot. It's as if the old Death Star was a "useless" plot point and only served to show us victory from the "Rebels"...very similar to another movie. 😆
In fact, there were legit reasons for all of those and they weren't useless plot points, just like the ones you mentioned about TPM. They weren't useless. They had a great purpose...however, to Palpitine, they were just stepping stones and some of the outcomes of those problems were already planned out or did not matter to his grand scheme.
Originally posted by queeq
I know that. But mind you: the entire movie is about freeing Naboo, about resolving the conflict, about getting the queen urgently to Coruscant and back, and about saving people who supposedly are suffering. There seems to be a lot at stake... but in the end.... there isn't. And most of what you've seen, doesn't really matter.I remember watching TPM with my oldest when he was about 5 or six. And since I'm not from an English speaking country, I was reading him the subtitles... And as I did, I read out a lot of this: taxation of trade routes, politics and senate talk, vote of no confidence, resignation of Chancellor, plead the Senate... And I was thinking: OMG this is ooo boring... and what would he understand of this? Jar Jar made it a kiddy movie, the political stuff is extremely boring and not of much interest for a kid that age...
LOL. Of course you of all people know that stuff, but I was building my logic up with my points. 🙁
And, those plot points did matter, very much to some characters, just not Palps. Padme cared very much for her people. You could say that without Padme, we do not have any movies. That's a pretty serious business character. She cared a crapload about her people and would rather die fighting or them than wait around for politicians to argue about stuff. I remember as a young man thinking that Natalie Portman was smokin', lol, because of how awesome she was in TPM. No wonder Anakin fell for her at 8! 😄
And the political talk is no different than the political mess of A New Hope: Princesses, interrogation on Rebel who'suhmuhwhatsuhs, Grand Moff's, Lords, Empires, Rebels, Emperors, Rebel Base locations, clone wars, galactic History, bills needing paid, and so forth. The entire film was a giant political allegory, if what others say is true.
See, these are the reasons I do not think there is much credence to most of the prequel hate: they end up coming up with reasons to hate the OT, as well. They are both awesome trilogies, though.
All of this talk makes me want to watch all six films, again. My wife still hasn't seen ANY of the films. She told me that she would watch all the movies with me, one day. TO DAY IS THE DAY! 😆 (We are snowed in, here, in OKC.)