prequel haters

I do think there is a case for saying that the Jedi should have achieved something more concrete in TPM with the Naboo thing- I don;lt think Star Wars is the place for a Xanatos Gambit "This is all how I wanted it to be anyway" sense. I even suspect they DID want the Jedi to achieve something by freeing Naboo but again, in the construction of the trilogy as a whole, lost sight of it.

There are some things they got though- the destruction of Maul, and maybe they greatly reduced the suffering on Naboo.

I still think it would have worked well if the Trade Federation had genuinely been defeated, giving a solid 'win' for the good guys instead of it all looking a bit pointless. The Sith would still be fine (and they have other interests to manipulate) so it would not have upset the main plot. It is very much what the end of TPM suggests will happen.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
I do think there is a case for saying that the Jedi should have achieved something more concrete in TPM with the Naboo thing- I don;lt think Star Wars is the place for a Xanatos Gambit "This is all how I wanted it to be anyway" sense. I even suspect they DID want the Jedi to achieve something by freeing Naboo but again, in the construction of the trilogy as a whole, lost sight of it.

There are some things they got though- the destruction of Maul, and maybe they greatly reduced the suffering on Naboo.

I still think it would have worked well if the Trade Federation had genuinely been defeated, giving a solid 'win' for the good guys instead of it all looking a bit pointless. The Sith would still be fine (and they have other interests to manipulate) so it would not have upset the main plot. It is very much what the end of TPM suggests will happen.

It's baseless unless I go to the EU but I think the losing Maul was Palpitine's plan, the whole time. His real "apprentice" choice was Dooku, from the beginning to use the Count's Political and resource pull. Losing Maul was part of the plan. IMO, when Palps said that "they are no match for you" it was actually him tricking Maul to go to his death so Palps could celebrate with the Jedi (winning trust) and the Naboo (as Supreme Chancellor) all the while setting up the way to take Dooku under his wing. Again, that's baseless but I think it makes sense if you consider Palps to be a genius mastermind.

Your second paragraph is very similar to my previous "complaint: about the Rebel's victory against the Empire in ANH. It seemed very much like a hollow victory.

But, and I may get zinged for this, I think George Lucas was trying to create several parallels between ANH and TPM to make the transition easier for old timers. Obviously, he missed the mark with most.

Originally posted by dadudemon
You do realize that I could actually say that about 90% of everything in all of the Star Wars films, if you applied my reasons for saying those things in context, right?

But. watch, I can do similar things to the OT (which I absolutely hate doing)...

At the end of ANH, we learn only one thing:

1. There's hope for the rebels to defeat the Empire.

That's not really an accurate portrayal of TPM and neither is an accurate portrayal of ANH.

We learn so many things its absurd.

1. Anakin started his training late with anger, hate, and fear which may have contributed to his downfall and the fall of the old Jedi Order.
2. We experience Obi Wan's master which shows us a great deal for Obi Wan's OT awesomeness.
3. The Sith's rise to power.
4. The old Jedi Order and how it operates.
5. How powerful the force users were back in the "old days" with regimented training.
6. More information about how the force works.

And so forth. I could go on, but you get the point.

You are a bit wrong there because ANH tells us about Luke, we see him take steps towards adulthood, joining the rebels in their fight against the Empire. This fight becomes manifest in the attempt of destroying the Death Star. To achieve that we learn two things: Luke grows up to be more than he'd ever be as a farmer on Tatooine, we learn he has some kind of destiny with the Force and all that ties in with him joining the Rebellion and helping them destroying the Death Star.
All actions in ANH are directed at this main point, the whole OT is focussed on destroyig the evil Empire. And all actions are aimed at that.

ANH: first blow against the Empire, Empire is vulnerable, we know about Luke and his potential and therefor in his contribution to the Rebellion
ESB: Luke becomes more powerful, but the Rebels learn they are still extremely vulnerable against the Empire (Hoth, blunty hunters, Han in carbonite): this is not going to be easy
ROTJ: new plans for the Death Star, Luke to face Vader.

Everything Luke does stands for the greater purpose of the Rebellion, he embodies it so to say.

In the PT we learn a lot of general stuff as you mention. But the aims of these characters are per movie unclear. And you relate all of that to the OT. What do these Jedi in TPM want? Peace and justice in the universe and not fight a war (and they DO fight a war). What does Anakin want in TPM, well first to win the pod race, then become a Jedi... how does that help the plot? Well, it doesn't really.. It's just a lot of stuff.

So yes,some kind of achievement by the heroes would at least have been welcome. But a bit more as well if you ask me.

Originally posted by queeq
You are a bit wrong there because ANH tells us about Luke, we see him take steps towards adulthood, joining the rebels in their fight against the Empire. This fight becomes manifest in the attempt of destroying the Death Star. To achieve that we learn two things: Luke grows up to be more than he'd ever be as a farmer on Tatooine, we learn he has some kind of destiny with the Force and all that ties in with him joining the Rebellion and helping them destroying the Death Star.
All actions in ANH are directed at this main point, the whole OT is focussed on destroyig the evil Empire. And all actions are aimed at that.

To the first portions, that's the same case that can be made of Anakin. To the next portions, the PT has the OT beat in that regard because we see multiple characters introduced and developed throughout TPM...which is also another reason I like the PT over the OT.

Originally posted by queeq
ANH: first blow against the Empire, Empire is vulnerable, we know about Luke and his potential and therefor in his contribution to the Rebellion
ESB: Luke becomes more powerful, but the Rebels learn they are still extremely vulnerable against the Empire (Hoth, blunty hunters, Han in carbonite): this is not going to be easy
ROTJ: new plans for the Death Star, Luke to face Vader.

Everything Luke does stands for the greater purpose of the Rebellion, he embodies it so to say.

That's similar for the PT but opposite: it's more about Palps showing us how vulnerable the Jedi and Old republic are.

Originally posted by queeq
In the PT we learn a lot of general stuff as you mention. But the aims of these characters are per movie unclear. And you relate all of that to the OT. What do these Jedi in TPM want? Peace and justice in the universe and not fight a war (and they DO fight a war). What does Anakin want in TPM, well first to win the pod race, then become a Jedi... how does that help the plot? Well, it doesn't really.. It's just a lot of stuff.

So yes,some kind of achievement by the heroes would at least have been welcome. But a bit more as well if you ask me.

The Jedi want to appease as many diplomats as possible while trying to put on the facade of being impartial and righteous.

Anakin is an 8-year-old boy that wants to have fun. His motives should be very simple: eat, sleep, have fun, spend time with friends and family. He's a child. How does it help the plot? Finding and getting to train the "Chosen One" who would be instrumental in taking down the Jedi Order is certainly helpful to the plot.

I think winning the pod race was very important for Anakin's character. It proved Gin's prediction was accurate, showed Anakin was definitely powerful with the force, setup the mythos of Anakin being one of the greatest pilots in the galaxy, gave the audience someone to cheer for, and gave us some awesome eye and ear candy.

What did Luke's Death Star run do for us? We have computers that can instantly plot hyperspace courses through vast distances in space (which would many millions to billions of time eclipse our computers, today...there's gravity, movements of objects during the travel, "speed", vectors needed, etc.) yet those same computers can barely calculate when to launch guided Proton torpedoes down a 2 meter wide shaft on the death star. What the death star run did was take a dump all over sci-fi logic but did not actually get us anywhere closer to taking down the Empire. It certainly stopped them from using a planet destroying weapon for a while but the empire still had vast resources right at their finger tips.

Originally posted by dadudemon
It's baseless unless I go to the EU but I think the losing Maul was Palpitine's plan, the whole time. His real "apprentice" choice was Dooku, from the beginning to use the Count's Political and resource pull. Losing Maul was part of the plan. IMO, when Palps said that "they are no match for you" it was actually him tricking Maul to go to his death so Palps could celebrate with the Jedi (winning trust) and the Naboo (as Supreme Chancellor) all the while setting up the way to take Dooku under his wing. Again, that's baseless but I think it makes sense if you consider Palps to be a genius mastermind.

Your second paragraph is very similar to my previous "complaint: about the Rebel's victory against the Empire in ANH. It seemed very much like a hollow victory.

But, and I may get zinged for this, I think George Lucas was trying to create several parallels between ANH and TPM to make the transition easier for old timers. Obviously, he missed the mark with most.

I think saying he wanted to lose Maul is a stretch, especially as GL hadn't invented Dooku at the time.

I also think the Rebel's victory in ANH was rather directly significant! Losing the Death Star was the beginning of the end for the Empire, as the Emperor had moved too soon and dismissed the Senate. Not to mention that they saved all the Rebels there- at least they could evacuate when the fleet came.

Dadudemon, in general terms a movie story works like this: a character wants something (physical, psychological etc.) and takes action to achieve that goal. In that sense the OT is clear: SW is simple, the characters all have a goal and take action to get it.

If Anakin just wants to have fun, eat sleep, have time with his friends, how doe sbecoming a jedi fit in that. Going to Coruscant? And what does he do? He doesn't do anything, these guys take him. And from then on everything goes by accident.
I don't know what Qui-Gon wants? Save Naboo? Not not really... Protect the Queen? Well, yes, prolly and that's what he does. There are not many obstacles to achieve that goal either. But the movie is not about whether QGJ succeeds in protecting the queen? We don't really understand what's to gain when he protects her when she goes back to Naboo... Well, perhaps the end of oppression of her people, which we never see...

OB1 has no purpose other than being a good student, which he is. What the Jedi want is also unclear. What Palpy (separated from the Sidious counterpart) wants is officially unclear... some kind of diplomatic solution to the problem... and to achiev that they talk a lot.

What Sidious wants in TPM is also not clear. He wants some kind of treaty signed... how that helps him take revenge on the Jedi? We have no idea. The list goes on and on like this.

In short: the OT is about Luke reaching adulthood in the Jedi way and to resolve the Darth Vader issue. The larger scope is a Rebellion that wants to destroy the Empire. The PT on the other hand is essentially about Palpy/Sidious.

He is the one with a goal, he is the one pulling the strings (he starts the blockade, he indirectly sends out assasination attempts to Padme, he gets the Clone Army made and used, he organises the Separatists, he starts the war, he turns Anakin, he executes order 66, he wipes out the Jedi).

Yet he is NOT the main character. And all these wonderful characters you seem to regard higher than the OT's just respond to what's going on of which they have no idea what's going on and don't really know what to do. This is where the PT is so flawed: despite flashy action scenes we have very passive characters here. They have no goals they have trouble achieving, they have no greater goal other than keeping peace and justice in the universe. Keeping... make sure the universe doesn't change... passive.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
I think saying he wanted to lose Maul is a stretch, especially as GL hadn't invented Dooku at the time.

I could have sworn Lucas fleshed the whole story out from the beginning when he sat down to write the prequel trilogy in 1994? I could have sworn he wrote the story of the prequel and then TPM script? Meaning, he had the meat of the PT done already before he finalized TPM's script.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
I also think the Rebel's victory in ANH was rather directly significant! Losing the Death Star was the beginning of the end for the Empire, as the Emperor had moved too soon and dismissed the Senate. Not to mention that they saved all the Rebels there- at least they could evacuate when the fleet came.

I think it's significant IFF a new Death Star isn't re-made so quickly. Some could argue that they were already starting a new one. Some could argue that they had perfected the manufacturing process. Some could say that the Empire had such vast resources that building a small moon sized battle station was easy to do in a few years.

All good arguments. I was simply pointing out that there's equally "not good" points to make about the OT as there are the PT. Considering that I do not consider the defeat of the Trade Federation at Naboo to be insignificant, at all, I also do not consider the making of a new Death Star "undoing" of the rebel's work in ANH.

The Rebels getting free? That's easily equated to Palpatine using the Naboo situation to leverage his way into the Chancellor position. A crippling blow to the Empire? Not at all. Not even slightly. It was nice progress for Palpatine to gain the trust of the diplomats from the different Republic planets so he could leverage that position to assume supreme powers later on.

Originally posted by queeq
Dadudemon, in general terms a movie story works like this: a character wants something (physical, psychological etc.) and takes action to achieve that goal. In that sense the OT is clear: SW is simple, the characters all have a goal and take action to get it.

Well, I think it works more like this:

Introduction. Rising action. Climax. Falling Action. Resolution.

In that set of elements, we experience a protagonist and an antagonist...even if those "characters" are not creatures, at all.

Originally posted by queeq
If Anakin just wants to have fun, eat sleep, have time with his friends, how doe sbecoming a jedi fit in that. Going to Coruscant? And what does he do? He doesn't do anything, these guys take him. And from then on everything goes by accident.
I don't know what Qui-Gon wants? Save Naboo? Not not really... Protect the Queen? Well, yes, prolly and that's what he does. There are not many obstacles to achieve that goal either. But the movie is not about whether QGJ succeeds in protecting the queen? We don't really understand what's to gain when he protects her when she goes back to Naboo... Well, perhaps the end of oppression of her people, which we never see...

Ahhhhh. I'm glad you brought that up.

Anakin experiences character development in TPM: he has to grow up due to being pulled form his mother, his home, his friends, and his planet. The only father figure he really could see, at that point, was Qui Gon Gin. He quickly bonds with Gin just to have him stolen from him by Maul. He then has his "brother" fight for him in front of the council to train as a Jedi. It's time to put away childish things and become a man and do right by his mother's, Gin's, and his own honor. It's a nice little side story, I think.

And if by accident you mean "doing the exact thing that was supposed to happen to Anakin because of the prophecy and the OT telling us so", then, yes, it was an accident. But it doesn't seem remotely like an accident.

Why does Gin want anything besides fulfilling the wishes of the will of the living force? Having more temporal "wants" is kind of forbidden by the Jedi code. If by wanting to do the right thing for "righteousness'" Sake, then, yes, Gin wants something; to assist an unjustly slaughtered and imprisoned people. He does want to save the people and the queen's people. That's fairly clear. Else he do it?

No, the movie is about the introduction to the Old Republic, the Jedi Order, and the characters that grow and develop through the PT. It also introduces us to some of our future OT pals. More simply, it's part 1 of a story we already know the outcome of.

What does Gin gain from saving the people of Naboo from slaughter and enslavement? Probably the ability to sleep at night and a better balance with the force. We do see some of them "cuffed" and then later freed, though.

Originally posted by queeq
OB1 has no purpose other than being a good student, which he is. What the Jedi want is also unclear. What Palpy (separated from the Sidious counterpart) wants is officially unclear... some kind of diplomatic solution to the problem... and to achiev that they talk a lot.

I thought it was the introduction of a young padawan and showing his growth and development from a blind follower of the Council to a head strong believer in Gin's words. It was also to show us that he was growing from a student to a Knight, which happened.

What the Jedi want before the start of TPM does not matter. That's what the movies are supposed to do. We do know that after TPM, that they want to end the imbalance to the force and they wanted to be used by the Senate in their diplomatic missions. Palpy, separate from his actual motives, wants to assist the people of Naboo and do the best possible for the Republic and the people's interests. And to achieve that, he has to arrange for the Trade Federation's withdrawal from the blockade which would require some sort of alternate trade routes or rates.

Originally posted by queeq
What Sidious wants in TPM is also not clear.

No, that's very clear: control of the Galaxy. We know this before TPM even starts.

Originally posted by queeq
He wants some kind of treaty signed... how that helps him take revenge on the Jedi? We have no idea. The list goes on and on like this.

Signing the peace treaty? I covered that already in a different post as well as this one. It was a springboard towards "owning" the galaxy. Palpatine DOES want to take revenge on the Jedi but we do not find that out until Episode III. We do know that he purged the Jedi from the Galaxy and he also becomes the emperor at some point. So we can piece together, before watching the films, that he wants to kill all of the Jedi and rule the Galaxy.

I don't see a single legitimate item in that list, however.

Originally posted by queeq
In short: the OT is about Luke reaching adulthood in the Jedi way and to resolve the Darth Vader issue. The larger scope is a Rebellion that wants to destroy the Empire. The PT on the other hand is essentially about Palpy/Sidious.

I will approach the PT in the same manner:

What the PT is about is Anakin coming full circle from a scared little boy to a Jedi Knight to a Jedi Master to a Sith Lord. The larger scope is about Palpatine's rise to power and the creation of the empire.

And, you have a much better case for saying the PT is about Anakin, Padme, and Obi Wan.

Originally posted by queeq
He is the one with a goal, he is the one pulling the strings (he starts the blockade, he indirectly sends out assasination attempts to Padme, he gets the Clone Army made and used, he organises the Separatists, he starts the war, he turns Anakin, he executes order 66, he wipes out the Jedi).

You've named the plot points that he is specifically responsible for.

Let's do it for the OT, as well:

He is the one responsible for the Death Star's construction, the capture of Leia for information, the pursuit of the rebels on Hoth, the capture of Luke, the early completion of the Death Star II, the attack on Endor, the Trap at the Battle of Endor, and attempting to turn Luke to the Dark Side.

Do you see how that does not illustrate your point as far as a contrast goes? At least with the PT, his plans were more elaborate and thought out, right? He's so much more of a badass in the PT, as well.

Originally posted by queeq
Yet he is NOT the main character. And all these wonderful characters you seem to regard higher than the OT's just respond to what's going on of which they have no idea what's going on and don't really know what to do.

Based on your logic, I just provided a sound case for why that's exactly the same case for the OT.

Originally posted by queeq
This is where the PT is so flawed: despite flashy action scenes we have very passive characters here.

That's where we disagree the most. I think far more character development occurs in the PT than does the OT in addition to very important characters.

The major difference in Palps role in the PT vs. the OT is this: Palps rises to power in the PT. Palps declines in power in the OT. However, like I've pointed out before, this is why I do not like to be put in these positions. I have to argue for reasons that the OT is "bad" when I do not think EITHER of the trilogies are bad: they are all six in my top ten list.

Originally posted by queeq
They have no goals they have trouble achieving, they have no greater goal other than keeping peace and justice in the universe. Keeping... make sure the universe doesn't change... passive.

Who is they? The Jedi? You do realize that you're making a good case for why Dooku left: impotent lapdogs of the Senate the Jedi had become.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I could have sworn Lucas fleshed the whole story out from the beginning when he sat down to write the prequel trilogy in 1994? I could have sworn he wrote the story of the prequel and then TPM script? Meaning, he had the meat of the PT done already before he finalized TPM's script.

I think it's significant IFF a new Death Star isn't re-made so quickly. Some could argue that they were already starting a new one. Some could argue that they had perfected the manufacturing process. Some could say that the Empire had such vast resources that building a small moon sized battle station was easy to do in a few years..

To the first- absolutely not. GL's original ideas for the PT were always shifting, and then specifically Dooku's character was created during the AOTC development. They hadn't even decided on Maul's replacement being an ex-Jedi during TPM. You probably wouldn't believe how late Grievous came in. In any case, he clearly sent Maul to kill the Jedi (and hence get the Queen), not be killed by them.

To the second- forcing the Empire to build a new Death Star also directly led to their downfall- the big throw of the dice that doomed them. And if Yavin had been destroyed, the Rebel leadership would have been wiped out; likely curtains for the rebellion. No, I am afraid your logic doesn't convince me here; I see the victory in ANH as considerably more significant than in TPM. Without the Death Star, the Empire was doomed.

So, if the good guys had never destroyed the Death Star, the Rebellion would never have succeeded.

If Naboo had not been re-taken... it is hard to be sure that anything would have been different in the end.

I still dont understand why people think the PT story is weird and convoluted. Palps wants to rise to power and the sith are finally ready to make their move and stir up the Jedi order. It is called the "phantom menace" because its told in a way if you haven't seen the OT you don't know palps is sidious. Till the middle of ROTS. Or if you can piece it together at the end of TPM.

Because Phantom Menace required people to think a little bit for themselves. It didn't spell everything out to us like the OT did, so we it's automatically assumed that we have to start second guessing every single motivation of the PT. "Who is Palpatine, what does he want, what is this and what is that?????" Well there's reason why GL said these films are to be viewed as one giant movie....because certain motivations span across all 3 films, and some even across six actually. Palpatine was manipulating everything including the senate throughout the 3 movies and he was doing so for power so he could control the galaxy and create his Empire....it's obvious that he's a bit of a snake in TPM, and this comes full circle in ROTS.

Anakin wants to be a Jedi because he wants to save people....as he says innocently on Tatooine when recalling his dream...."I had a dream I was a Jedi once, and I freed all the slaves..." He becomes a Jedi because of his attachment to saving people, though it's that fear of losing an attachment that becomes his downfall. So there's a sense of irony there.

Again, because this was all executed differently from the OT automatically means these movies were bad because people can't think a little critically. ❌

Originally posted by Sith Master X
Because Phantom Menace required people to think a little bit for themselves. It didn't spell everything out to us like the OT did, so we it's automatically assumed that we have to start second guessing every single motivation of the PT. "Who is Palpatine, what does he want, what is this and what is that?????" Well there's reason why GL said these films are to be viewed as one giant movie....because certain motivations span across all 3 films, and some even across six actually. Palpatine was manipulating everything including the senate throughout the 3 movies and he was doing so for power so he could control the galaxy and create his Empire....it's obvious that he's a bit of a snake in TPM, and this comes full circle in ROTS.

Anakin wants to be a Jedi because he wants to save people....as he says innocently on Tatooine when recalling his dream...."I had a dream I was a Jedi once, and I freed all the slaves..." He becomes a Jedi because of his attachment to saving people, though it's that fear of losing an attachment that becomes his downfall. So there's a sense of irony there.

Again, because this was all executed differently from the OT automatically means these movies were bad because people can't think a little critically. ❌

Couldn't of said it better myself. IMO the PT is the same as the OT with wonderful story that drew me in and made me remember what it is to be a kid again. And it was presented in the same manner as the OT.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Well, I think it works more like this:

Introduction. Rising action. Climax. Falling Action. Resolution.

In that set of elements, we experience a protagonist and an antagonist...even if those "characters" are not creatures, at all.

If tehre is anything we disagree on it's this. Movies are not about broad strokes, they are about people, their emotions, their relationships and how they develop. Not about Intro, Rising action, Climax, falling resolution... that's is what happens to people in a story strcuture. So we can identify with them, live their story.

The elements are merely the backdrop of the protagonist and the antagonist. And the crucial element for a protagonist is that he has a DESIRE.

Star Wars, after ANH, had the added title: From the adventures of Luke Skywalker. SW wasn't about a bad empire vs. good rebels. SW was about Luke, it was in ANH and it was in the entire OT.

Is the PT really about Anakin? It should be, but his character is very strange. I pointed out several times that on the crucial plot points, the vital turning points of his life, the movies fall short.

TPM: Anakin's great pilotry is merely accidental: he doesn't know what he doing. Sure blame it on the vague prophecy that it all happens because it's the will of the Force. But the Force (who obviously DOES have a DESIRE) is not a character

AOTC: Anakin falls in love. Lousy scripting, lousy acting. And Anakin is not a loving peson in this movie, he ACTS like spoiled brat and in movie terms (if we don't see anything else) that makes him a spoiled brat

ROTS: the fall to the Dark Side. A rushed, incredible set of scenes that make no sense at all.

Anakin has one clear desire: to be the greatest Jedi ever. And he actually achieves that, without much trouble. He already is that pretty much in AOTC. Nothing stood in his way really.

Luke wanted to be a Jedi and a lot stood in his way: his mentor got killed, he nearly died in the Battle of Yavin, he nearly gets killed by Wampa's, a snowstorm and in the Battle of Hoth, he's old, he's stubborn, he's rash to leave for Bespin, his friend gets abducted to whom he feels a strong loyalty, his love for his father and the Emperor himself.

Herein lies the crucial difference between the OT and the PT. WE know what people want in these films, but that's because we have lots and lots of info about the SW universe. The movies contain very little of the info you need, and there is little empathy. So it's not a very accessible set of movies. A lot of people who are not SW fans always said the story was so shallow. I don't think it was, but I do think they are right in the sense that most of it was hardly or badly told.

Originally posted by queeq

TPM: Anakin's great pilotry is merely accidental: he doesn't know what he doing. Sure blame it on the vague prophecy that it all happens because it's the will of the Force. But the Force (who obviously DOES have a DESIRE) is not a character

AOTC: Anakin falls in love. Lousy scripting, lousy acting. And Anakin is not a loving peson in this movie, he ACTS like spoiled brat and in movie terms (if we don't see anything else) that makes him a spoiled brat

ROTS: the fall to the Dark Side. A rushed, incredible set of scenes that make no sense at all.

Anakin has one clear desire: to be the greatest Jedi ever. And he actually achieves that, without much trouble. He already is that pretty much in AOTC. Nothing stood in his way really.

Luke wanted to be a Jedi and a lot stood in his way: his mentor got killed, he nearly died in the Battle of Yavin, he nearly gets killed by Wampa's, a snowstorm and in the Battle of Hoth, he's old, he's stubborn, he's rash to leave for Bespin, his friend gets abducted to whom he feels a strong loyalty, his love for his father and the Emperor

Anakin was a good pilot because the force was strong with him. And he proved that in the pod race. Yes him flying into the control ship and blowing it up were accidents but he is a kid!

Lousy script and acting? (but I was going into toshi station to pick up some power convertors) (who are you? Someone who loves you) those lines are just as bad as anything in the PT. Anakin a spoiled brat? Umm he is over confident and spoiled! He thinks he is the most powerful Jedi ever and this contributes to his fall.

A rushed fall? as I have said before. He's been falling ever since episode 1! And at some point in time he has to turn completely.

Nothing stood in his way to become the most powerful Jedi? I agree and disagree. He is the most powerful so he shouldn't have too much trouble, plus he had palps help. But he did have obsticals with the pod race. And the final battle. In atoc he had the death of his mother and the arena and dooku. And in rots he had the visions of padme's death and his turn to the darkside.
With Luke, palps was trying to stop him

Originally posted by darthmaul1
Anakin was a good pilot because the force was strong with him. And he proved that in the pod race. Yes him flying into the control ship and blowing it up were accidents but he is a kid!

Being a kid is not an excuse. There are a lot of kiddie films, but bad characters that don't act to achieve something are dramatically not well written. Plus: how does blowing up of the ship in the end help to achieve his goals? It doesn't...

Originally posted by darthmaul1
Lousy script and acting? (but I was going into toshi station to pick up some power convertors) (who are you? Someone who loves you) those lines are just as bad as anything in the PT. Anakin a spoiled brat? Umm he is over confident and spoiled! He thinks he is the most powerful Jedi ever and this contributes to his fall.

Sure, those examples aren't great. But mind you: they are not CRUCIAL to the OT storyline. Anakin's love scene is.... it is THE pivotal moment that leads to his downfall.

Originally posted by darthmaul1
A rushed fall? as I have said before. He's been falling ever since episode 1! And at some point in time he has to turn completely.

We never really get to cheer for Anakin... that is a problem. If he's falling all the time by his own choice (which Lucas always claimed) then he is a jerk. Why should we feel soprry for him? Because he was a oopsy-wizard kid once? Bad move.

In AOTC he was grumpy, unhappy with his life, training, master... In ROTS he was unhappy with just about everything... not much fall there... Just a constant state of moodiness.

And you know well I meant the whole part from where Anakin finds out Palpy is a Sith until he prostrates himself. However he was falling, he always had a hate for the Sith. That kinda evaporated in moments after finding out his 'friend' Palpy had been betraying him for more than 10 years... yeah right... Not very credible.

Originally posted by darthmaul1
Nothing stood in his way to become the most powerful Jedi? I agree and disagree. He is the most powerful so he shouldn't have too much trouble, plus he had palps help. But he did have obsticals with the pod race. And the final battle. In atoc he had the death of his mother and the arena and dooku. And in rots he had the visions of padme's death and his turn to the darkside.
With Luke, palps was trying to stop him

THe pod race was not an obstacle beacue he didn't want to be a Jedi yet. He just wanted to help.

The death of his mother was never an obstacle in achieving his goal No Jedi finds out, it has no consequences for his training. It would have been different if he had been barred or suspended from the training. That would have rightly driven him into the arms of Palpy. Missed opportunity there.

Also, the visions are no obstacle in achieving what he wants then: to be on the council. He tells no one, so it doesn't have consequences, it doesn't obstruct him. It just makes him angry, moody etc... just like everything else in his life seems to do. And even his oown arrogance or moodiness or even disobedience never stands in his way to complete his training or become the youngest master ever.

[i]Originally posted by queeq [/]
[/B]

And you know well I meant the whole part from where Anakin finds out Palpy is a Sith until he prostrates himself. However he was falling, he always had a hate for the Sith. That kinda evaporated in moments after finding out his 'friend' Palpy had been betraying him for more than 10 years... yeah right... Not very credible.

[/B]

For once you start down the dark path forever will it dominate your destiny.
Fear leads to anger, anger leada to hate, hate leads to suffering.
Anakin was already turning in episode 1. And in episode 2 he made a bigger step with killing the sand people and willy nilly go after dooku and disobey the Jedi order by getting married. His hate for the sith didn't evaporate in moments it started at the opera with palps.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
To the first- absolutely not. GL's original ideas for the PT were always shifting, and then specifically Dooku's character was created during the AOTC development. They hadn't even decided on Maul's replacement being an ex-Jedi during TPM. You probably wouldn't believe how late Grievous came in. In any case, he clearly sent Maul to kill the Jedi (and hence get the Queen), not be killed by them.

I did a quick google search and the only thing I found was some text that said he sat down in 1994 and started writing the PT:

"Though many doubted the other two Star Wars trilogies would ever be made, in 1994, Lucas began writing the scripts for the prequel trilogy."

http://www.answers.com/topic/george-lucas#ixzz1CpQpOZwD

I've looked and looked and I could not find.

I searched for books on "the making of" on Amazon, as well. I cannot find anything that nicely backs up what either of us said. Do you know of a book or film I could watch?

Originally posted by Ushgarak
To the second- forcing the Empire to build a new Death Star also directly led to their downfall- the big throw of the dice that doomed them. And if Yavin had been destroyed, the Rebel leadership would have been wiped out; likely curtains for the rebellion. No, I am afraid your logic doesn't convince me here; I see the victory in ANH as considerably more significant than in TPM. Without the Death Star, the Empire was doomed.

I disagree: Without the Death Star, the Empire was not doomed. They survived many years before it's completion. They also dealt some hefty blows to the Rebellion in ESB without one.

I do agree that the destruction of the Death Star is more important than the destruction of the Trade Federation's capital ship. However, that's an apples to oranges comparison: the goal was never to destroy the TF's capital ship, but to get Palps in office as Chancellor. In that regard, the conflict was more important to the next 5 films than the destruction of the death star in ANH.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
So, if the good guys had never destroyed the Death Star, the Rebellion would never have succeeded.

If Naboo had not been re-taken... it is hard to be sure that anything would have been different in the end.

There was still a strong possibility that even with the destruction of the Death Star, the rebellion could still have realized defeat at the hands of the Empire.

The Result of the Naboo conflict did not matter to Palps overall plans. The start of the conflict was what was important, and that happened. The results of the conflict, DID, however, matter to Padme and a couple of Jedi. Without that victory, we would not have episodes II, III, IV, V, and VI.

Well, we might have ended up with those episodes, but somewhere along the lines, Dooku would have died of old age. Maybe Ventress would have replaced Dooku? (She's a G-Level Canon character, right, because of the CGI movie?)

Originally posted by queeq
If tehre is anything we disagree on it's this. Movies are not about broad strokes, they are about people, their emotions, their relationships and how they develop. Not about Intro, Rising action, Climax, falling resolution... that's is what happens to people in a story strcuture. So we can identify with them, live their story.

The elements are merely the backdrop of the protagonist and the antagonist. And the crucial element for a protagonist is that he has a DESIRE.

Star Wars, after ANH, had the added title: From the adventures of Luke Skywalker. SW wasn't about a bad empire vs. good rebels. SW was about Luke, it was in ANH and it was in the entire OT.

Is the PT really about Anakin? It should be, but his character is very strange. I pointed out several times that on the crucial plot points, the vital turning points of his life, the movies fall short.

No, that's exactly how a story works. Those elements can be moved about, but that's how all stories except those trying to be artsy or very short stories work.

Also, Star Wars is not just about Luke. If you like the OT because it's a story about Luke, I think you've missed out on the majority of what makes the OT a cinematic masterpiece.

Originally posted by queeq
TPM: Anakin's great pilotry is merely accidental: he doesn't know what he doing. Sure blame it on the vague prophecy that it all happens because it's the will of the Force. But the Force (who obviously DOES have a DESIRE) is not a character

Incorrect: Anakin, once he got auto-pilot shut off, piloted quite nicely. He also made educated guesses on how the controls worked, once inside the capital ship. For never having experienced Naboo technology, he did quite well, showing that he was a genius. His true genius is not seen until Episode III where he pretty much makes it look easy.

Also, some say that the force has no desire and they back it up. Some say it does have a will and back that up. It's debatable unless you have a GL clarification that I'm not aware of?

Originally posted by queeq
AOTC: Anakin falls in love. Lousy scripting, lousy acting. And Anakin is not a loving peson in this movie, he ACTS like spoiled brat and in movie terms (if we don't see anything else) that makes him a spoiled brat

Awesome script, great acting. Anakin is definitely a loving person in the film and you can really tell that he is in love with Padme. There are some that say the AOTC was Lucas' best script and it had the best character development. I don't agree with that, but you get the picture. He acts like an angry and confused teenager. Are you forgetting that he's a teenager in the film? There's dozens of examples of Padawans around his age, acting very much the same, if not more spoiled, in lots of EU story lines. You may want him to act like a wise Jedi Master, like Qui Gon Jinn, but he's still a kid (17 or 18, in the film). If you want to see a character acting like an annoying child, see ESB Yoda when Luke first meets him.

Originally posted by queeq
ROTS: the fall to the Dark Side. A rushed, incredible set of scenes that make no sense at all.

Anakin has one clear desire: to be the greatest Jedi ever. And he actually achieves that, without much trouble. He already is that pretty much in AOTC. Nothing stood in his way really.

I don't understand how anyone can claim that ROTS was a rushed set of scenes that make no sense at all. It's not that difficult to understand.

Anakin wants to be the greatest duelist from AOTC, for sure. He definitely does NOT achieve becoming the greatest Jedi ever. He was not that in AOTC. Tons stood in his way.

Originally posted by queeq
Luke wanted to be a Jedi and a lot stood in his way: his mentor got killed, he nearly died in the Battle of Yavin, he nearly gets killed by Wampa's, a snowstorm and in the Battle of Hoth, he's old, he's stubborn, he's rash to leave for Bespin, his friend gets abducted to whom he feels a strong loyalty, his love for his father and the Emperor himself.

Luke: Whiny, self-absorbed, and naive.

And, surely you don't see all of the "opposition" that stood in Anakin's way? Your comparison to Anakin and Luke is null: the same reasons you find Luke a better character than Anakin are the same logical reasons you should be finding Anakin a better character than look because Anakin had more character development. Luke actually experiences lots of character development off screen between ESB and RotJ. Shouldn't that piss you off a little bit?

Originally posted by queeq
Herein lies the crucial difference between the OT and the PT. WE know what people want in these films, but that's because we have lots and lots of info about the SW universe. The movies contain very little of the info you need, and there is little empathy. So it's not a very accessible set of movies. A lot of people who are not SW fans always said the story was so shallow. I don't think it was, but I do think they are right in the sense that most of it was hardly or badly told.

I don't see a difference at all. I see an unfair comparison between the PT and the OT and the same reasons you say the OT is better than the PT should equally apply to the PT, but you asymmetrically apply rules to suit your dislike of the PT. That's really fair to the PT.

Originally posted by darthmaul1
For once you start down the dark path forever will it dominate your destiny.
Fear leads to anger, anger leada to hate, hate leads to suffering.
Anakin was already turning in episode 1. And in episode 2 he made a bigger step with killing the sand people and willy nilly go after dooku and disobey the Jedi order by getting married. His hate for the sith didn't evaporate in moments it started at the opera with palps.

Good points. A lot of people incorrectly say that Anakin turned to the dark side with no "push" and it was not supported...bad character development, etc. My reply: "DID YOU EVEN WATCH THE MOVIES?" 😆 That's not been an argument of anyone in this thread because, thankfully, KMC Star Wars fans are not idiots like people I know, IRL.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I did a quick google search and the only thing I found was some text that said he sat down in 1994 and started writing the PT:

"Though many doubted the other two Star Wars trilogies would ever be made, in 1994, Lucas began writing the scripts for the prequel trilogy."

http://www.answers.com/topic/george-lucas#ixzz1CpQpOZwD

I've looked and looked and I could not find.

I searched for books on "the making of" on Amazon, as well. I cannot find anything that nicely backs up what either of us said. Do you know of a book or film I could watch?

I disagree: Without the Death Star, the Empire was not doomed. They survived many years before it's completion. They also dealt some hefty blows to the Rebellion in ESB without one.

I do agree that the destruction of the Death Star is more important than the destruction of the Trade Federation's capital ship. However, that's an apples to oranges comparison: the goal was never to destroy the TF's capital ship, but to get Palps in office as Chancellor. In that regard, the conflict was more important to the next 5 films than the destruction of the death star in ANH.

There was still a strong possibility that even with the destruction of the Death Star, the rebellion could still have realized defeat at the hands of the Empire.

The Result of the Naboo conflict did not matter to Palps overall plans. The start of the conflict was what was important, and that happened. The results of the conflict, DID, however, matter to Padme and a couple of Jedi. Without that victory, we would not have episodes II, III, IV, V, and VI.

Well, we might have ended up with those episodes, but somewhere along the lines, Dooku would have died of old age. Maybe Ventress would have replaced Dooku? (She's a G-Level Canon character, right, because of the CGI movie?)

We'll have to disagree about the Death Star, but you will have to accept that the films make it clear that the Empire NEEDS- literally NEEDS- one of the Senate or the Death Star, as this is made clear on-screen; they cannot maintain control without one or the other. Destroying it was an enormous victory and that was their eventual doom- obviously not immediately, that would be silly, but it the Empire would never have fallen had it remained intact. And saying the point of TPM was to get Palpy elected is actually nothing to do with the point I am making, which is relating it all to what the good guys achieve, which I think is what the films should focus on- and, in any case, Palps would have been elected even if Qui-Gon and co had failed (therefore making it hard to see the point of your apples and oranges thing), so that triumph was irrelevant even to that. I don't think a Star Wars film should be like that.

As for Dooku- the Star Wars databank, talking about his conception during AOTC development.

"Behind the Scenes

The development of a new Sith Lord for Episode II underwent a wide variety of iterations, since the early concepts included the tantalizing idea of a female villain. Artists Iain McCaig and Dermot Power experimented with different female Sith designs, including regal dark queens, robot metal-plated warriors, and feral vampiric witches.

As the story of Episode II progressed, the villain continued evolving. A shape-shifting alien design was played with (a characteristic eventually folded into Zam Wesell's character) before George Lucas solidified his ideas of a battle-scarred aged Jedi warrior who had left the order, thus telegraphing the notion of a Jedi leaving to become a Sith, as Anakin will eventually do.

It was at this point that Christopher Lee was considered for a role in Episode II. Armed with this possibility, the concept artists developed designs that echo the stately menace exuded by Lee's late colleague, Peter Cushing, who played Grand Moff Tarkin in Episode IV."

You'll see similar things happening in the development of all the films- the idea that GL had things of that detail as closely planned as you imply does not bear any close examination. It was all in massive shift as it went along- he was so late writing AOTC, the first DRAFT script (let alone the final version) wasn't ready until a month before the filming started. Heck, Qui-Gon was barely in the first scripts he put out for TPM, long after he sketched out his broad idea for the Trilogy- and he totally re-wrote the reason Anakin fell to the Dark Side AFTER principle photography was done on ROTS, requiring re-shoots!

Sorry, but the idea that GL had even these important details carefully planned... isn't true. It never was how he worked. He made it up as he went along.

Originally posted by dadudemon
No, that's exactly how a story works. Those elements can be moved about, but that's how all stories except those trying to be artsy or very short stories work.

Also, Star Wars is not just about Luke. If you like the OT because it's a story about Luke, I think you've missed out on the majority of what makes the OT a cinematic masterpiece.

Stories are about people, dadudemon. Not about settings.

ANH was very much like, in fact BASED, on Kurosawa's The Hidden Fortress. It's very much like it. Yet one is situated in feudal Japan, the other in a galaxy far far away.

Kurosawa's Yojimbo was based on American Westerns and formed the basis itself for A Fistful of Dollars and at least one ther remake set in the 30s (with Bruce Willis). While one deals with two warlords, the other with ranchers vs. mexicans and the third about gangsters in the moonshine business and the settings are all very very different... the characters stories are the same.

And I said SW WAS (WAS!!!!) about Luke Skywalker. The OT was at the time, Lucas even called it so himself. The PT changed it to the story of Darth Vader, sort of.
Yet as a protagonist Luke was much better thought out. We can argue about it all the way but if you analyse them based on DESIRE, the obstacles to achieve it and the actions they undertake to achieve it, Luke is much clearer. The PT is rather muddled.