Revamping the tierings/power levels in comics...

Tiers as they are now are fine. Superman, Thor, Surfer, Orion are more or less on the same level.

Superman - can power a solar system sized machine on brute strength and absorbed a blast with his own body that was going to destroy the solar system.

Thor - can generate enough force to bust a celestial.

Orion - with the Astro Force contained a blast that was going to destroy the universe.

Surfer - can manipulate energies capable of destroying Galactus level beings.

So putting them on the same tiers is just logical. Tiers are about perceived average upper level to me, meaning that on average these characters would be a match for each other given their unique attributes.

I think story should take precedence over feats anyway, but trying to restrict a hero character's level in the comics is a fool's errand to me. Too many writers, too many perspectives.

Wow, I finally agree with you well for the end part. I never really got into placing characters into these categories as it's different writers and different opinions and us the fans trying to make logical sense of it all is just never going to happen.

Originally posted by King Kandy
Basically, you're suggesting we just make everything up and discard on-panel showings in order to conform to this arbitrarily selected list of standards?

King Kandy, what we are trying to say is, you have too many characters performing too many ridiculous feats. When you have earthbound characters outperforming upper level abstractions, you've written yourself into a corner story wise.

What can the LT or Eternity or Chaos King do that can compare to Mad Jim Jaspers and Wanda Maximoff. These two humans have performed OMNIversal feats!

Jamie Braddock and Franklin Richards are universe level reality warpers.

This nonsense has to be reigned in or there's nowhere else to go in terms of story.

Originally posted by carver9
Everything that I'm saying is coming directly from on panel showings... on panel.

Wolverine enhanced (low)
Spiderman enhanced (low)
Sabertooth enhanced (low)
Black panther enhanced (low)
Captain america enhanced (low)
Midnighter enhanced (low)
Batman enhanced (low)
Lady shiva enhanced (low)
Deathstroke enhanced (low)

Enhanced high

Blue marvel
Wonder woman
Power girl
None confidense sentry
Supergirl
Martian manhunter
Orion (rage could boost him to low herald)

Low herald

Thor. (Versatility could move him up to mid)
Superman (versatility could move him up to mid)
Firelord
Hulk
Juggernaut
Konvikt
Magneto
Nate grey (versatilty could potentially move him up to mid)
Black adam
Gladiator
Captain marvel
Sentry (confident)
Beta ray bill

Can't think of any mids... will edit my post.

High Herald (I know some of these peoplecan beat the other but I am basing this off of pure power... not on a "who can win bases"😉

Surfer
Power Gem Drax
Champion with the gem or bands
Thanos (potentially low trans)
Void
Hal (could have sworn that I have seen him wreck small planets)

I will do the rest later... just using the main characters.

See, this is why it doesn't work.

Shiva and Midnighter on the same tier?
Wondy and Supergirl on the same tier?
Superman an entire tier above J'onn and Wondy with the capability to move UP because he's 'versatile?' rofl. More versatile than J'onn? Or even Diana with standard gear? Captain Marvel a tier above Wondy when she's physically stalemated him on panel?

These things should be based on match-ups because thats what the tier list is for; to assist as a reference point for unfamiliar characters in a versus forum.

Originally posted by zopzop
King Kandy, what we are trying to say is, you have too many characters performing too many ridiculous feats. When you have earthbound characters outperforming upper level abstractions, you've written yourself into a corner story wise.

What can the LT or Eternity or Chaos King do that can compare to Mad Jim Jaspers and Wanda Maximoff. These two humans have performed OMNIversal feats!

Jamie Braddock and Franklin Richards are universe level reality warpers.

This nonsense has to be reigned in or there's nowhere else to go in terms of story.

Characters like Jaspers and Richards are not used that often, and if Marvel hire a clever writer to work those characters they'll likely get retconned. That or just make them like Mxy, popping in every now and again for mischief.

This is very wrong.

You should be ashamed of yourself by how bad this is,

Originally posted by zopzop
King Kandy, what we are trying to say is, you have too many characters performing too many ridiculous feats. When you have earthbound characters outperforming upper level abstractions, you've written yourself into a corner story wise.

What can the LT or Eternity or Chaos King do that can compare to Mad Jim Jaspers and Wanda Maximoff. These two humans have performed OMNIversal feats!

Jamie Braddock and Franklin Richards are universe level reality warpers.

This nonsense has to be reigned in or there's nowhere else to go in terms of story.

++

This is exacly what I am trying to say...

See, King Kandy, what I suggest is that they blow things up and start all over; retcon virtually everyone and "attempt" to place just a little logic and consistency into some of the feats that these various characters are capable of...

With a breakdown like the one I have provided, atleast you have a guildeline in place; even if you dont agree with the power levels of the tiers I have provided, atleast get one in place that makes sense and stick to it...that'll do wonders as pertains achieving something like 'suspension of disbelief.'

And Zop is correct; if you have Earth-bound humans and Earth bound Gods shaking reality and performing omniverse level feats, where does that place Abstracts and High Powered Cosmics?

As Zop correctly stated...you have painted yourself into a corner by going overboard with feats.

@Allankles

Do you really think it makes sense to have Superman that powerful and durable!? You really think he should be capable of withstanding a blast that is capable of destroying a solar system!? You have any idea the level of power that would require??

If you have him that powerful you start the inflation effect all over again; to make interesting stories now you are going to have to create a whole gang of characters capable of taking him on and harming him...

What about Supes allies? If they cant perform on his level, then they are of no use to him and it destroys suspension of disbelief to have someone on Wonder Womans level or Batman's level assisting him...so now either he will be allyless or his allies will all have to be able to 'power solar systems,' bust planets, ect, ect...

No, what you propose makes no sense and places comics exactly where they currently are; a place where you have characters performing insane feats that are completely logic defying (even by comicbook standards)...

What you propose is the exact thing that should regulated on a much shorter leash...

LoL (actually this should be CoL; crying out loud)...

You think Surfer destroying Galactus level beings and Thor busting Celestials makes sense...wow...just wow.

🙁

Originally posted by King Kandy
Basically, you're suggesting we just make everything up and discard on-panel showings in order to conform to this arbitrarily selected list of standards?

And no, I am suggesting that Marvel/DC themselves discard everything and start over and that they craete a list of standards and conform to them...

Or rather, if it were up to you, would you put a guildeline in place for your writers...and if so...how would it break down?

Originally posted by zopzop
Excellent tiering!

If anyone from Marvel/DC reads these forums, I hope they take a good look at this list. IMHO, you have WAAAY to many extreme level feats out in comics nowadays. It becomes so bad, each new storyline has to "one up" the previous one and it just winds up becoming moronic.

You have human beings, mutantsn affecting reality on an OMNIversal scale! The freaking LT, supposedly the second in command at MU, is only MULTIversal. How is this possible?

You have earth based deities : wrecking galaxies, shaking the universe/multiverse, and affecting all planes of existence when they clash.

Keep in mind godlike abstractions haven't been shown doing anything that level EVER.

I sound like a broken record but as proof I give you :

Odin/Seth fighting (mutliverse shaking, etc...)
Eric Masterson THor/Dargo Thor fighting (universe shaking)
Vulcan/Black Bolt fighting (destroying PARSECS long stretches of space!)
Surtur forging his sword (destroying a galaxy to forge a sword)
Hulk (thunderclapping and destroying a dimension!)
Wanda Maximoff throwing a *** fit (rearranging the OMNIverse)
Mad Jim Jaspers (destroying universes like sand castles and threatening the OMNIverse)
Franklin Richards (universe level psionic power)
Jammie Braddock (universe, at least, level reality warping power)

I'm sure I'm missing others but you get my drift. Where has the Living Tribunal, Galactus, Order/Chaos, Death, Eternity, etc.. been shown doing half that?

I understand also that it's just a comic, but when you have humans affecting the OMNIverse, then how are abstracts supposed to compete? THere's nothing greater than an OMNIverse so what's left for them to do?

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan
Honestly I think your tiers need a lot of work, you jump in power far to quickly. Many of marvels characters and most popular to boot fall under the enhanced area which is far to small and broad.

Fair enough...

How would you break things down?

TheLordofMurder
Street Level
Low: Can beat up the weak and the Elderly...or a normal person that is physically impared in some way; may be grossly out of shape and slow for example.
Mid: Can beat up common crooks/thugs.
High: Can beat up a very skilled and physically powerful opponent...Brock Lesnar for example.

Enhanced
Low: Can defeat scores of normal humans without much effort.
Mid: Can go crazy and wreck vehicles and small buildings one after another.
High: Can wreck large buildings and devastate city blocks.

Problem: You just put every martial artist and weapon master character at 'low enhanced,' with a few teen sorts being down at 'high street,' and pretty much 90% of characters are jammed within Enhanced.

Low street should be low *heroic* street. Still well above a normal person, someone like Spoiler or starting-out Tim Drake or so on.

High street is someone who's approaching peak human abilities.

Originally posted by Allankles
[B]Tiers as they are now are fine.

Agreed, but I do think we need to do an update of who's in them. I don't know where the last tiering was but I remember it having some odd errors.

Originally posted by Q99
Problem: You just put every martial artist and weapon master character at 'low enhanced,' with a few teen sorts being down at 'high street,'

I disagree...

A score equals 20; no martial artist is realistically going to beat up 40 people (remember I said scores of normal people at low enhanced) at the same time with little effort; unless they are superhuman in some form or fashion...in which case low enhanced is exactly where they belong.

As pertains a weapons master, remember I did say defeat scores of normal humans with little effort; unless you have a fully automatic assault rifle or something similar, a weapons master is not going to defeat 40 or more normal humans with "little effort" unless he is superhuman...

As pertains teens being high street, remember, I would retcon virtually everyone...and I am sorry, I dont know of a teen alive that could stand up to Brock Lesnar (or someone of his caliber); Captain America and Batman...sure...but a teenager?? No...no way. He is way too fast and way too strong for a teenager; regardless of their skill level...he'd just athletically overwhelm them.

Now if you were to tier it as you propose:
Street Level
Low: Low heroic.
Mid: Mid heroic.
High: Peak human.

I could definitely buy that...as that does make sense and features logic! 🙂

I don't think you're factoring in comic martial arts.

Even mid level fighters can take down hoards of fodder.

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
@Allankles

Do you really think it makes sense to have Superman that powerful and durable!? You really think he should be capable of withstanding a blast that is capable of destroying a solar system!? You have any idea the level of power that would require??

If you have him that powerful you start the inflation effect all over again; to make interesting stories now you are going to have to create a whole gang of characters capable of taking him on and harming him...

What about Supes allies? If they cant perform on his level, then they are of no use to him and it destroys suspension of disbelief to have someone on Wonder Womans level or Batman's level assisting him...so now either he will be allyless or his allies will all have to be able to 'power solar systems,' bust planets, ect, ect...

No, what you propose makes no sense and places comics exactly where they currently are; a place where you have characters performing insane feats that are completely logic defying (even by comicbook standards)...

What you propose is the exact thing that should regulated on a much shorter leash...

LoL (actually this should be CoL; crying out loud)...

You think Surfer destroying Galactus level beings and Thor busting Celestials makes sense...wow...just wow.

🙁

For the past 3 to 4 years, no one really hasn't been perform these types of feats. I honestly believe that the writers are already trying to balance things out. If you use feats from at least a 3 year radius, the tier system should be perfect BUT things don't work like that.

@carver9

Hmmm, you do have a point; I havent seen much in the way of the insane feats that we've been subject to in decades past...

But without some guildelines in place (maybe they have them now...who knows), I am certain that they'll resurface...

Edit: Hulk was going to bust Earth during World War Hulk wasnt he? He didnt actually do it, but since this occured 3 years ago, it goes to show that the writers still have it in them to have herald level characters busting planets...

And come to think about it, Rulk appeared in 2008; 2 years ago and thrashed King Thor and punched out Uatu...

No, the insane feats continue...they arent as numerous as they once was.

Originally posted by zopzop
King Kandy, what we are trying to say is, you have too many characters performing too many ridiculous feats. When you have earthbound characters outperforming upper level abstractions, you've written yourself into a corner story wise.

What can the LT or Eternity or Chaos King do that can compare to Mad Jim Jaspers and Wanda Maximoff. These two humans have performed OMNIversal feats!

Jamie Braddock and Franklin Richards are universe level reality warpers.

This nonsense has to be reigned in or there's nowhere else to go in terms of story.

Only if you demand everything be perfectly consistent, which it needn't be.

Just tell good stories and you're fine, regardless of power levels. Yes, some of the best books of all time are all about low power levels. And some of the best books of all time are all about massive, stupid power levels.

It doesn't matter a whit.

Originally posted by Desaad
Only if you demand everything be perfectly consistent, which it needn't be.

Just tell good stories and you're fine, regardless of power levels. Yes, some of the best books of all time are all about low power levels. And some of the best books of all time are all about massive, stupid power levels.

It doesn't matter a whit.

It does matter...

For example, if one month Thor is rocking the universe in a battle, but the next month he gets KO'ed by Juggs...that is immersion breaking and takes me out of the story with one of those "wtf" moments.

Or if Superman withstands the force of a ground zero nuclear detonation, but a few months later gets KO'ed by an exploding gas station...dude, that screams "wtf!!"

Now I do agree with you that writing a good story trumps all, but would it hurt to have some consistency? I thought Hunter/Prey was an excellent read for example...but Doomsday not being erased by the Omega Effect was pure PIS...and seeing that did take me out of the story briefly.

Anyway, I think having some consistency and guidelines to what kind of feat various characters are capable of performing matters.

Originally posted by TheLordofMurder
[B]It does matter...

For example, if one month Thor is rocking the universe in a battle, but the next month he gets KO'ed by Juggs...that is immersion breaking and takes me out of the story with one of those "wtf" moments.

Why?

Or if Superman withstands the force of a ground zero nuclear detonation, but a few months later gets KO'ed by an exploding gas station...dude, that screams "wtf!!"

Why? The important aspect of the story is the internal drama of it, not arbitrary feats.

I'm all for consistency, but not at the expense of storytelling. And these contradictory situations have been popping up for as long as comics have been made. The Silver Age had Hal Jordan get knocked out by a falling tree branch and rekindling a dying sun to full strength in the same issue, and those stories were fine.

Now I do agree with you that writing a good story trumps all, but would it hurt to have some consistency? I thought Hunter/Prey was an excellent read for example...but Doomsday not being erased by the Omega Effect was pure PIS...and seeing that did take me out of the story briefly.

I think consistency is good, so long as it doesn't hurt the quality of the story. But I don't think it's a necessity, especially between varying writers. Should Morrison not be able to tell the type of Superman stories he wants to tell because Robinson wants to tell smaller, more personal stories that demand a less powerful Superman?

You see what I'm saying?

Continuity is an awesome tool when used correctly, but I think a lot of modern fans have twisted it into something that hurts, rather than enhances, a story.