Originally posted by Jinsoku Takai
It was a sarcastic remark. Had something to do w/ an argument we had with Pwnd or whatever his name was (remember him?). I can't find the thread. It's here somewhere, but I'm not wasting any more of my time looking for it.
Ah ok. It made some sense though as Sidious claims that Juyo is a Sith form because it is very dark.
Originally posted by ares834It may fit Sith well, but every source I've read lists Juyo as a Jedi form of combat- one that only a select few ever get to learn. You see, it's not that Juyo is an inherently 'dark sided' form of combat, but it does make it easier to embrace 'dark sided' emotions, which can subsequently sway a Jedi toward the dark side (hence why it is withheld from most Jedi students.)
Ah ok. It made some sense though as Sidious claims that Juyo is a Sith form because it is very dark.
Regardless, Yoda's bio states that he is a master of "all" lightsaber styles.
Originally posted by Galan007
It may fit Sith well, but every source I've read lists Juyo as a Jedi form of combat- one that only a select few ever get to learn. You see, it's not that Juyo is an inherently 'dark sided' form of combat, but it does make it easier to embrace 'dark sided' emotions, which can subsequently sway a Jedi toward the dark side (hence why it is withheld from most Jedi students.)
Here are the quotes.
"Proper execution puts a Jedi in violation of one of the Code's core precepts: There is no emption, there is peace."
To this Sidious says, "Not a surprise, Jedi. It is a Sith Style."
I'd assume that Sidious, being the scholar he is, would know about stuff like this.
Anther quote, "You will not truly be using Juyo until you allow excitement, passion, and rage to color your actions."
That seems pretty dark sided to me.
Regardless, Yoda's bio states that he is a master of "all" lightsaber styles.
Yeah, I know and I have the book and actually posted it awhile back.
Originally posted by ares834You left out some essential bits of info...
Here are the quotes."Proper execution puts a Jedi in violation of one of the Code's core precepts: There is no emption, there is peace."
To this Sidious says, "Not a surprise, Jedi. It is a Sith Style."
I'd assume that Sidious, being the scholar he is, would know about stuff like this.
Anther quote, "You will not truly be using Juyo until you allow excitement, passion, and [B]rage
to color your actions."That seems pretty dark sided to me.[/B]
"Vicious and unpredictable, Form VII requires a Jedi to attack under the guidance of controlled passion."
"Proper execution of Juyo seemingly puts a Jedi in violation of one of the Code's core precepts: "There is no emotion, there is peace." However, Form VII masters do not give themselves to emotion blindly. They channel their inner turmoil into a mental forge, which provides the passion to power their raw and furious strikes. A true expert keeps the emotions locked within the forge. Lesser practitioners of the art might allow their emotions to spill out during battle, poisoning their intentions and drawing them into the fury of a dark side rage."
Like I said: Juyo is a Jedi form of combat, but it's more widely adopted by the Sith, because it allows them to better channel their uncontrolled dark sided emotions during battle.
How does anything you typed contradict what I said? Even if it is controled emotion and rage you are still using the dark side. And Sidious directly claims it is a "Sith Style" while I have seen nothing that calls it a "Jedi style" specifically since Sidious is one of the most knowledgable FU in all of SW, however that doesn't mean the Jedi didn't adapt it to their use afterall the Sith use Jedi styles as well. The simple fact is to use Juyo one must use their rage... That is simply not the Jedi way!
Originally posted by ares834The fact that every source book I've read explains how a Jedi applies Juyo, is proof enough for me that it is a Jedi form of combat that has simply been more widely adopted by the Sith.
How does anything you typed contradict what I said? Even if it is controled emotion and rage you are still using the dark side. And Sidious directly claims it is a "Sith Style" while I have seen nothing that calls it a "Jedi style" specifically since Sidious is one of the most knowledgable FU in all of SW, however that doesn't mean the Jedi didn't adapt it to their use afterall the Sith use Jedi styles as well.
Originally posted by ares834Except it is a form of combat the Jedi teach to a select few- so this statement is actually incorrect.
The simple fact is to use Juyo one must use their rage... That is simply not the Jedi way!
As the excerpt I posted says: masters of Juyo do not give themselves over to their emotions blindly- instead, they utilize said emotions as a 'weapon of the light'.
Originally posted by Galan007
The fact that every source book I've read explains how a Jedi applies Juyo, is proof enough for me that it is a Jedi form of combat that has simply been more widely adopted by the Sith.
So because you believe it is a Jedi form it is? Sidious directly refers to it as a Sith Style and, out side of pure speculation, there is no reason to disbelieve him.
Except it is a form of combat the Jedi teach to a select few- so this statement is actually incorrect.
Except using one's rage is not the Jedi way been as it directly contradicts their code.
As the excerpt I posted says: masters of Juyo do not give themselves over to their emotions blindly- instead, they utilize said emotions as a 'weapon of the light'.
Where are you getting the statement "weapon of light" from?
Originally posted by ares834You're completely ignoring the fact that every source book lists Juyo as a Jedi form of combat, and clinging to Palpatine's comment as though it, in some way, supersedes the source books themselves.
So because you believe it is a Jedi form it is? Sidious directly refers to it as a Sith Style and, out side of pure speculation, there is no reason to disbelieve him.
Originally posted by ares834False. The teaching of Juyo IS permitted amongst Jedi- but only a select few are chosen to learn it.
Except using one's rage is not the Jedi way been as it directly contradicts their code.
Originally posted by ares834From Mace's statement regarding Vaapad- after all, Juyo and Vaapad tap into the exact same reservoir of emotions.
Where are you getting the statement "weapon of light" from?
Originally posted by Galan007
You're completely ignoring the fact that every source book lists Juyo as a Jedi form of combat, and clinging to Palpatine's comment as though it, in some way, supersedes the source books themselves.
And I'll ask again. What book specifically refers to Juyo as a Jedi Style/Form rather than a Light Saber form?
False. The teaching of Juyo IS permitted amongst Jedi- but only a select few are chosen to learn it.
I never said it wasn't permitted by the Jedi. I said using rage, which accroding to this battlemaster one must to fully use Juyo, goes against the Jedi Code.
From Mace's statement regarding Vaapad- after all, Juyo and Vaapad tap into the exact same reservoir of emotions.
Vaapad was specifically created by Windu to channel these emotions. If Juyo already did this why did Mace have to create Vaapad rather than use Juyo?
Originally posted by ares834Any book that references the 7 forms of lightsaber combat...? But specifically, Jedi Path: A Manual for Students of the Force spells it out pretty blatantly.
And I'll ask again. What book specifically refers to Juyo as a Jedi Style/Form rather than a Light Saber form?
Originally posted by ares834No, it does not:
I never said it wasn't permitted by the Jedi. I said using rage, which accroding to this battlemaster one must to fully use Juyo, goes against the Jedi Code.
"Proper execution of Juyo seemingly puts a Jedi in violation of one of the Code's core precepts: "There is no emotion, there is peace." However, Form VII masters do not give themselves to emotion blindly. They channel their inner turmoil into a mental forge, which provides the passion to power their raw and furious strikes. A true expert keeps the emotions locked within the forge. Lesser practitioners of the art might allow their emotions to spill out during battle, poisoning their intentions and drawing them into the fury of a dark side rage."
Per the above, Juyo only goes against the Code IF the Jedi utilizing it allows their uninhibited emotions to spill out/control them during battle. Otherwise, it is simply another form of [Jedi] lightsaber combat.
Originally posted by ares834No. A Juyo master does channel their inner darkness- ergo the "mental forge" referenced above. The only difference between Vaapad and Juyo, is that Vaapad also channels an opponent's darkness and turns it against them.
Vaapad was specifically created by Windu to channel these emotions. If Juyo already did this why did Mace have to create Vaapad rather than use Juyo?
Originally posted by Galan007
Any book that references the 7 forms of lightsaber combat...? But specifically, Jedi Path: A Manual for Students of the Force spells it out pretty blatantly.
Like Sidious's quote that is an in-universe source and I feel safe saying that Sidious it the more knowledgable. Furthermore, it does not refer to Juyo specifically as a Jedi Style but rather as a style of lightsaber combat.
No, it does not:"Per the above, Juyo [i]only goes against the Code IF the Jedi utilizing it allows their uninhibited emotions to spill out/control them during battle. Otherwise, it is simply another form of [Jedi] lightsaber combat.
"You will not truly be using Juyo until you allow excitement, passion , and rage to color your actions."
"There is no passion , there is serenity."
That's a glairing contradiction.
No. A Juyo master does channel their inner darkness- ergo the "mental forge" referenced above. The only difference between Vaapad and Juyo, is that Vaapad also channels an opponent's darkness and turns it against them.
Dodging. I will repeat my question, if it did that then why did Mace Windu feel the need to create a new form to do that for him?
Also there is no mention in that excerpt about channeling the darkness into a weapon of light as you claimed. Sure they lock away the emotions and then use them, but their is no mention of converting it into light as Mace mentions Vaapad does.
Originally posted by ares834No shyte. But the book is referring to how a Jedi applies Juyo in combat. In fact, every source book I've read references how a Jedi applies the form- not a Sith.
Like Sidious's quote that is an in-universe source and I feel safe saying that Sidious it the more knowledgable. Furthermore, it does not refer to Juyo specifically as a Jedi Style but rather as a style of lightsaber combat.
Trying to use a single comment from Palpatine, even though said comment was contradicted in the very next paragraph by the book itself is an enormously skewed line of 'logic'.
Originally posted by ares834Obviously not. As the source I've been referencing, along with every other source, notes: so long as you control your emotions, and they do not control you, you are not in violation of the code. Common sense dictates that if the study of Juyo put a Jedi in violation of the code, it would not be a form the Jedi teach to students. Simple.
"You will not truly be using Juyo until you allow excitement, [B]passion , and rage to color your actions.""There is no passion , there is serenity."
That's a glairing contradiction.[/B]
Originally posted by ares834Odd that you would say I 'dodged' your question, when I answered it. srsly
Dodging. I will repeat my question, if it did that then why did Mace Windu feel the need to create a new form to do that for him?
The book blatantly states that Juyo allows it's master to channel their emotions in battle. Thus, the only discernible difference between it, and Vaapad, is that Vaapad also allows it's master to channel an opponents emotions/darkness in battle. End of story.
Originally posted by ares834We know a Jedi-Juyo-master channels their raw emotions in battle- and as long as they remain in control of said emotions, we know that they are not swayed by the dark side/in violation of the code. So again: common sense dictates that the Jedi in question must be channeling their emotions into a 'weapon of the light', as opposed to a 'weapon of the dark'.
Also there is no mention in that excerpt about channeling the darkness into a weapon of light as you claimed.
Originally posted by Galan007
No shyte. But the book is referring to how a Jedi applies Juyo in combat. In fact, every source book I've read references how a Jedi applies the form- not a Sith.
Every source book aslo refrences how Jedi apply the form Niman as well despite the fact that the Jedi did not develop it so in the end it's irrelevent.
Trying to use a single comment from Palpatine, even though said comment was contradicted in the very next paragraph by the book itself is an enormously skewed line of 'logic'.
Post this "contradiction" then.
Originally posted by Galan007
Odd that you would say I 'dodged' your question, when I answered it. srslyThe book blatantly states that Juyo allows it's master to channel their emotions in battle. Thus, the only discernible difference between it, and Vaapad, is that Vaapad also allows it's master to channel an opponents emotions/darkness in battle. End of story.
No you dodged it. But I'll ask a third time. Why did Mace devolp Vaapad if Juyo already allows one to channel one's own darkness into light?
We know a Jedi-Juyo-master channels their raw emotions in battle- and as long as they remain in control of said emotions, we know that they are not swayed by the dark side/in violation of the code. So again: common sense dictates that the Jedi in question must be channeling their emotions into a 'weapon of the light', as opposed to a 'weapon of the dark'.
Strange idea of common sense. Considering that there are several Jedi who use the dark side despite the fact that they remain in control of their emotions and don't fall to it.
Originally posted by ares834Then why the fuk did you ask for a book that referred to it as such? srsly
Every source book aslo refrences how Jedi apply the form Niman as well despite the fact that the Jedi did not develop it so in the end it's irrelevent.
Originally posted by ares834I have. Multiple times. You've simply been ignoring it, because you think Palpatine's comment supersedes it.
Post this "contradiction" then.
The source states that Juyo seemingly (key word) puts a Jedi in violation of the code- but then goes on to explain why/how true masters of the form are not in violation of the code. Like I said before: if Juyo did violate the code, the Jedi would NOT teach it to ANYONE- it would be a forbidden style. Just like force lightning is a forbidden force technique.
Originally posted by ares834Good God. g007-psyduck
No you dodged it. But I'll ask a third time. Why did Mace devolp Vaapad if Juyo already allows one to channel one's own darkness into light?
For the THIRD time, I'll answer this question: THE ONLY DISCERNIBLE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN JUYO AND VAAPAD IS THAT VAAPAD ALSO ALLOWS ITS USER TO CHANNEL AN OPPONENT'S DARKNESS IN BATTLE.
As was blatantly spelled out in the book: a Juyo master DOES channel their inner emotions, and IS in control of them. Why on earth you are arguing with a fact that was specifically stated in a canon source is entirely beyond me.
Originally posted by ares834And which Jedi would that/those be?
Strange idea of common sense. Considering that there are several Jedi who use the dark side despite the fact that they remain in control of their emotions and don't fall to it.
Regardless, that is essentially what I said: despite the seemingly 'dark' feelings a Jedi might be harnessing whilst using Juyo, their control over those feelings is what allows them to use Juyo as a 'weapon of the light'. Only lesser practitioners of the form allow those uncontrolled feelings to spill out during battle, subsequently leading them toward the dark side.