Top 20 most skilled/proficient lightsaber duelists (Without the force) of each era

Originally posted by Galan007
[B]Then why the fuk did you ask for a book that referred to it as such? srsly

I'm saying that just becasue source books show how a Jedi uses a form doesn't mean the Jeid invented it.

I have. Multiple times. You've simply been ignoring it, because you think Palpatine's comment supersedes it.

No. The next paragraph makes no mention of it being a Jedi style only that they use it (which I have never denied). Sidious says it's a "sith style" which seems to indicate that they created it. However, that doesn't mean that Jedi won't use it afterall Sith will use "Jedi styles" as well.

Good God. g007-psyduck

For the THIRD time, I'll answer this question: THE ONLY DISCERNIBLE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN JUYO AND VAAPAD IS THAT VAAPAD ALSO ALLOWS ITS USER TO CHANNEL AN OPPONENT'S DARKNESS IN BATTLE.

lol. How does that answer my question? It doesn't. According to RotS, Windu made Vaapad to channel his own darkness into light, not his opponents. If Juyo already did this he would not have needed to develop the form.

As was blatantly spelled out in the book: a Juyo master DOES channel their inner emotions, and IS in control of them. Why on earth you are arguing with a fact that was specifically stated in a canon source is entirely beyond me.

I never said that a Jedi isn't in control of it only they are using the darkside and are using rage.

And which Jedi would that/those be?

Kyle Katarn, Jaden Koor, Plo Koon, etc...

Regardless, that is essentially what I said: despite the seemingly 'dark' feelings a Jedi might be harnessing whilst using Juyo, their control over those feelings is what allows them to use Juyo as a 'weapon of the light'. Only lesser practitioners of the form allow those uncontrolled feelings to spill out during battle, subsequently leading them toward the dark side.

Just because you have control over these dark feelings doesn't mean that it becomes light.

Originally posted by ares834
I'm saying that just becasue source books show how a Jedi uses a form doesn't mean the Jeid invented it.

Originally posted by ares834
No. The next paragraph makes no mention of it being a Jedi style only that they use it (which I have never denied). Sidious says it's a "sith style". However, that doesn't mean that Jedi won't use it afterall Sith will use "Jedi styles" as well.

And you failed to address this part of my quote: "Like I said before: if Juyo did violate the code, the Jedi would NOT teach it to ANYONE- it would be a forbidden style. Just like force lightning is a forbidden force technique."

Originally posted by ares834
lol. How does that answer my question? It doesn't. According to RotS, Windu made Vaapad to channel his own darkness into light, not his opponents. If Juyo already did this he would not have needed to develop the form.

Originally posted by ares834
I never said that a Jedi isn't in control of it only they are using the darkside and are using rage.

Originally posted by ares834
Kyle Katarn, Jaden Koor, Plo Koon, etc...

Originally posted by ares834
Just because you have control over these dark feeling deosn't mean that it becomes light.

Originally posted by Galan007
[B]So you believe the Sith invented the form simply because of Palpatine's comment? Even though all source books explain it from a Jedi point of view?

This is why I brought up the point about Niman. Sure every source book may talk about how the Jedi use it but they did not develop it. Furthermore there is nothing that contradits it. Ergo, I'm going to believe one of the most knowledgable people in the mythos.

Even though the next paragraph explains why the portion Palpatine underlined was incorrect? Wow

And yet nothing he says was proven incorrect.

Red herring. The argument you've been making is that to use Juyo, a Jedi must also be using the dark side by proxy. As the source extrapolates on: Juyo masters are NOT tainted by the dark side because they keep their emotions in check- ie. the mental forge. It is only lesser practitioners who allow themselves to be swayed.

Except using your rage/anger/hate is the dark side... Thats Force 101 and comes directly from ESB.

And you failed to address this part of my quote: "Like I said before: if Juyo did violate the code, the Jedi would NOT teach it to ANYONE- it would be a forbidden style. Just like force lightning is a forbidden force technique."

I'm not quite sure why you brought it up to be honest. I never said it was forbidden to the Jedi... Regardless, Force Lightning isn't forbidden as Jedi such as Korr use it.

According to the source book (which you've selectively picked a few quotes to base your argument from) a Juyo master DOES channel their OWN darkness into a weapon of the light as well. Ergo, there's only one difference between the forms.

Lol... There is no mention of channeling darkness into light. Channeling darkness into a mental forge=/=channeling it into light.

Only lesser practitioners allow themselves to be tainted by the dark side. Masters of Form VII do not.

Yeah, which is why I've always said they were being tainted by the darkside... 🙄

This poor logic would also apply to Vaapad, then. I mean, just because Mace is in control of his feelings (just like Juyo masters are) doesn't mean it becomes light... Right? srsly

Nope. Unlike Juyo we have actual quotes that show that through some unknown means it turns darkness into light.

In a nutshell, what's the argument here? What's the issue with Juyo being a Sith style?

Sidious said it was?

N.
Sidious said it was?

ya, I have The Jedi Path.

I meant what's the problem with that.

No problem, they're just arguing whether its true or not. I think.

N.
No problem, they're just arguing whether its true or not. I think.

Then we best leave this to the sexually frustrated. Let's get out of here, my dear.

d0vxUoJPBM0&feature=related

Grrrrrrrrr.

Is that a yes? vin

That was a sexualised growling noise juxstiposed with a animu child making a similar, albeit cuter, noise.

What do you think?

N.
That was a sexualised growling noise juxstiposed with a animu child making a similar, albeit cuter, noise.

What do you think?

One can never tell with you.

Originally posted by ares834
This is why I brought up the point about Niman. Sure every source book may talk about how the Jedi use it but they did not develop it. Furthermore there is nothing that contradits it. Ergo, I'm going to believe one of the most knowledgable people in the mythos.

Originally posted by ares834
And yet nothing he says was proven incorrect.

The source states that Juyo only "seemingly" puts a Jedi in violation of the code, but then goes on to explain that masters of the Form keep their emotions in check (mental forge)- thus they are not tainted by the dark side. It's only when lesser users of the form allow their emotions to spill out wildly that they can be led down that path. This shyte was specifically stated in the source. Stop arguing with it.

Originally posted by ares834
Except using your rage/anger/hate is the dark side... Thats Force 101 and comes directly from ESB.

It brings you close to the dark side, yes. However, coming close to the dark side =/= directly tapping/channeling the dark side. That's logic 101.

Originally posted by ares834
I'm not quite sure why you brought it up to be honest. I never said it was forbidden to the Jedi... Regardless, Force Lightning isn't forbidden as Jedi such as Korr use it.

Originally posted by ares834
Lol... There is no mention of channeling darkness into light. Channeling darkness into a mental forge=/=channeling it into light.

Originally posted by ares834
Yeah, which is why I've always said they were being tainted by the darkside...

Originally posted by ares834
Nope. Unlike Juyo we have actual quotes that show that through some unknown means it turns darkness into light.

Originally posted by Galan007
[B]And I'll believe the Jedi wouldn't teach a Sith style to their students. To believe the Jedi order would knowingly/willingly expose students directly to the dark side is an absolutely ludicrous line of thinking that goes against the entire philosophy of the order.

Since when has speculation and beliefs replaced canon? We have a knowledgable in-universe source stating that Juyo is a Sith style. And they aren't exaclty willing to give the secrets of Juyo to any Jedi... It is a very restricted from afterall.

Quite wrong. At this point it seems that you are being obtuse and ignoring what was blatantly written.

The source states that Juyo only "seemingly" puts a Jedi in violation of the code, but then goes on to explain that masters of the Form keep their emotions in check (mental forge)- thus they are not tainted by the dark side. It's only when lesser users of the form allow their emotions to spill out wildly that they can be led down that path. This shyte was specifically stated in the source. Stop arguing with it.

There is no source stating that a Form VII master must also be tapping the dark side by proxy. Not. One.

Yes there is...

"You will not truly be using Juyo until you allow excitement, passion, and rage to color your actions."

"Anger...fear...aggression. The dark side of the Force are they."

Thus to truly be using Juyo you must use the emotions that are the dark side not those of the Light.

It brings you close to the dark side, yes. However, coming close to the dark side =/= directly tapping/channeling the dark side. That's logic 101.

It doesn't just bring you close it actively uses the emotions that are of the dark side.

Yeah, well, that's the NJO for ya. I can assure you that FL was very much a forbidden technique when Yoda was running things- and for good reason.

Plo Koon was using it. Admittedly he doesn't appear to be using the darkside. Futhermore, Korr continues using the FL after Luke and hir order return to the more orthadox view of the force. Still not sure how this is relevant since I never said Juyo was forbidden.

If you're a Jedi.
...
...
If you're a Jedi channeling your inner turmoil into a mental forge and using it against your opponent while not being swayed/tainted by the dark side whatsoever, then you must be using those emotions for good, as opposed to evil- ergo you are utilizing Juyo as a 'weapon of the light'.

Wrong. Using the dark side, even for good, does not neccesarily make it into "light". Afterall, the pathway to hell can be paved with good intentions.

Plus, if there is anything that the Mortis Trilogy shows us light=/=good nor does dark=/=evil. So sure it may be a "weapon for good" but not neccesarily "of light".

Originally posted by ares834
Since when has speculation and beliefs replaced canon? We have a knowledgable in-universe source stating that Juyo is a Sith style. And they aren't exaclty willing to give the secrets of Juyo to any Jedi... It is a very restricted from afterall.

Originally posted by ares834
Regardless, none of that contradicts what Sidious says.

Originally posted by ares834
Yes there is...

"You will not truly be using Juyo until you allow excitement, passion, and rage to color your actions."

"Anger...fear...aggression. The dark side of the Force are they."

Thus to truly be using Juyo you must use the emotions that are the dark side not those of the Light.

"They [Mace and Depa] acknowledge that it [Form VII] is a dangerous regimen that may cut close to the Sith intensity of focus on physical combat ability." - Jedi/Sith: EGTTF

"This spiritually dangerous regimen cuts perilously close to the Sith intensity of focus on physical combat ability." - Star Wars Insider #62

Originally posted by ares834
It doesn't just bring you close it actively uses the emotions that are of the dark side.

Originally posted by ares834
Plo Koon was using it. Admittedly he doesn't appear to be using the darkside.

Originally posted by ares834
Wrong. Using the dark side, even for good, does not neccesarily make it into "light".

Originally posted by ares834
Plus, if there is anything that the Mortis Trilogy shows us light=/=good nor does dark=/=evil. So sure it may be a "weapon for good" but not neccesarily "of light".

Originally posted by Galan007
Yes. It does. And like I said before: the Jedi simply would not teach a Sith/dark side style to their order. It's utterly ridiculous to assume otherwise.

Canon>your beliefs. And considering how no mention is made of the Sith creating the style (by the Jedi at leas) it isn't hard to believe that they don't know.

Again, practitioners of Form VII do come close to the dark side- but coming close =/= directly tapping it...

According to this guy they are.

"They [Mace and Depa] acknowledge that it [Form VII] is a dangerous regimen that may cut close to the Sith intensity of focus on physical combat ability." - Jedi/Sith: EGTTF]

First, this seems to be describing Vaapad rather than Juyo here, at least from the small excerpt you posted. Secondly Sith intensity=/=using the dark side in fact. Furthermore, in this quote the "Sith intensity" is denoting their "focus on physical combat ability".

"This spiritually dangerous regimen cuts perilously close to the Sith intensity of focus on physical combat ability." - Star Wars Insider #62[/i
Sith intensity=/=using the dark side.

Sith intensity=/=using the dark side. Furthermore, in this quote the "Sith intensity" is denoting their "focus on physical combat ability".

Negatory. At least 2 different sources (see above) state that a Jedi practitioner of Juyo comes "close" to the dark side. Coming close to the dark side =/= actively utilizing the dark side.

Sith intensity=/=using the dark side.

Per Plo Koon himself, he was [i]not utilizing dark sided emotions when he manifested "electric judgement".

And my point with Jaden Korr still remains. Plus is there an actual reason to believe Koon is electric judement rather than FL?

Then please elaborate as to how Vaapad can be deemed a 'weapon of the light'. After all, it draws on the SAME emotions as Juyo + your opponent's darkness. If anything, it should be more dark/evil than Juyo, no?

Because it has some unique properties that Juyo does not have... I don't know how it works, but then I also don't know how the the superconducting loops works either. It just does.

Originally posted by ares834
First, this seems to be describing Vaapad rather than Juyo here, at least from the small excerpt you posted.

Originally posted by ares834
Secondly Sith intensity=/=using the dark side in fact. Furthermore, in this quote the "Sith intensity" is denoting their "focus on physical combat ability".

Sith intensity=/=using the dark side. Furthermore, in this quote the "Sith intensity" is denoting their "focus on physical combat ability".

Sith intensity=/=using the dark side.

...Unless you think "Sith intensity" entails a Sith channeling the light side of the force when they're engaging in lightsaber combat (I'm sure that's what Maul was doing.) 👆

srsly

Originally posted by ares834
And my point with Jaden Korr still remains. Plus is there an actual reason to believe Koon is electric judement rather than FL?

Originally posted by ares834
Because it has some unique properties that Juyo does not have... I don't know how it works, but then I also don't know how the the superconducting loops works either. It just does.

So by your definition, it [Vaapad] certainly would not be dubbed 'a weapon of the light'- but it WAS. So why would Juyo be any different?

Originally posted by Galan007
You're beginning to make no sense. "Sith intensity of focus on physical combat" absolutely equates to tapping the dark side. Incontrovertible.

Nope. "Focus on physical combat" denotes exactly what it means... Focus on physical combat. Meaning Juyo users focus on physical combat as intensely as the Sith. Which makes sense considering how difficult the form is to master. Furthermore, if we do take it your way, it just means they don't tap the darkness as intensely as Sith. RotS Anakin, for example, was called "half a Sith" (or something like that by Dooku) and yet he used the dark side against Dooku.

I thought EJ and FL were essentially the same ability, with a different title..?

Eh, not really sure.

So by your definition, it [Vaapad] certainly would not be dubbed 'a weapon of the light'- but it WAS. So why would Juyo be any different?

Because it is a different "form". Just because Vaapad has some unique funtcion that allows darkness to become light does not mean Juyo has it. Afterall, Windu created Vaapad specifically for that reason, he wouldn't have needed to do so if Juyo already did such a thing.

Originally posted by ares834
Nope. "Focus on physical combat" denotes exactly what it means... Focus on physical combat. Meaning Juyo users focus on physical combat as intensely as the Sith.

Originally posted by ares834
Furthermore, if we do take it your way, it just means they don't tap the darkness as intensely as Sith.

Originally posted by ares834
Because it is a different "form". Just because Vaapad has some unique funtcion that allows darkness to become light does not mean Juyo has it. Afterall, Windu created Vaapad specifically for that reason, he wouldn't have needed to do so if Juyo already did such a thing.

The only difference between them is that Vaapad channels an opponent's darkness as well. Thus if the emotions required for Vaapad can be used as a 'weapon of the light', common sense dictates that the emotions required in Juyo can as well.

I thought the whole point of Mace creating Vaapad was to channel his own inner darkness into a weapon of light. Why would he go through the trouble of creating a new form if juyo already did that?

Yes, vaapad also allows Mace to channel another opponents darkness, but that is not the reason he created it.