Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
But we only have your word that God is all loving and all just.It's not his definition vs Gods.
It's his definition vs yours and yours includes torturing people for no reason.
Exactly. This type of God doesn't sound like an all knowing and Just God. He/She sounds mostly contolling, self-absorbed, and egotistical.
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
But we only have your word that God is all loving and all just.It's not his definition vs Gods.
It's his definition vs yours and yours includes torturing people for no reason.
First, I don't remember including torturing people for no reason in my definition.
Second, I thought that the question was presupposing God's existence. Obviously the God I was referring to was the God of the Bible. I thought that was the one we were talking about. That isn't simply MY definition. By definition the God of the Bible has those traits. If He doesn't, He isn't the God of the Bible.
Originally posted by socool8520
Exactly. This type of God doesn't sound like an all knowing and Just God. He/She sounds mostly contolling, self-absorbed, and egotistical.
Controlling? I don't think so. This is the God that granted us free will. That doesn't mean we can do whatever we want and not face the consequences though. If God wanted to be controlling He could have simply made us like mindless, unquestioning drones. The very fact that you can freely call God controlling shows that He really isn't.
Originally posted by TacDavey
First, I don't remember including torturing people for no reason in my definition.Second, I thought that the question was presupposing God's existence. Obviously the God I was referring to was the God of the Bible. I thought that was the one we were talking about. That isn't simply MY definition. By definition the God of the Bible has those traits. If He doesn't, He isn't the God of the Bible.
Controlling? I don't think so. This is the God that granted us free will. That doesn't mean we can do whatever we want and not face the consequences though. If God wanted to be controlling He could have simply made us like mindless, unquestioning drones. The very fact that you can freely call God controlling shows that He really isn't.
But he is self absorbed and egotistical then right? By what what definition does he have those traits? Just because He says it in one sentence doen't exclude the fact that he destroyed cities for not believing in Him and sinning I guess, mass genocide by flooding, condemning non-believers to an eternal torment, the list goes on. I have a hard time believing that He is just when he does things like that. Even a person did these things, would we think of him as all loving and just?
Originally posted by socool8520
But he is self absorbed and egotistical then right? By what what definition does he have those traits? Just because He says it in one sentence doen't exclude the fact that he destroyed cities for not believing in Him and sinning I guess, mass genocide by flooding, condemning non-believers to an eternal torment, the list goes on. I have a hard time believing that He is just when he does things like that. Even a person did these things, would we think of him as all loving and just?
I have an easier time accepting His actions were justified when I consider He is, by definition, all just. Meaning it is literally impossible for Him to perform an unjust action.
If we are talking about the God of Bible, which I think we are, then we know from the Bible that He is all loving and all just. You have to take that into account as well. You can't just pick and choose what parts of the Bible you want to accept and which ones you don't.
And of course we wouldn't think of a person as all loving and all just. Because they are a person. And as such do not have those traits, as far as I know. If there was a person who we knew was all loving and all just (somehow) then yes, I would consider their actions justified because it's logically impossible for them to perform an unjust action.
Originally posted by TacDavey
I have an easier time accepting His actions were justified when I consider He is, by definition, all just. Meaning it is literally impossible for Him to perform an unjust action.If we are talking about the God of Bible, which I think we are, then we know from the Bible that He is all loving and all just. You have to take that into account as well. You can't just pick and choose what parts of the Bible you want to accept and which ones you don't.
And of course we wouldn't think of a person as all loving and all just. Because they are a person. And as such do not have those traits, as far as I know. If there was a person who we knew was all loving and all just (somehow) then yes, I would consider their actions justified because it's logically impossible for them to perform an unjust action.
I'm sorry, but this makes no sense to me. How is he by definition all loving and all just when he does things, that by very definition, are unjust? Was he not the one who said murder was a sin, and yet He seems to do it on a mass scale. How is that a characteristic of love and righteousness? I can not see how "Because I say I'm Just", can be a logical rationale for a perfect being to use to break his own commandment. I'm sure Hitler felt all loving and just (at least for his people), when he tried to rid the world of anyone who didn't fit the mold of his perfect race, but I think we can all see the flaw in His logic can't we? How is what God has done that much different? Just because He makes a claim that He is all knowing and just really doesn't cut it for me when he contradicts himself by doing things things that really aren't that just or loving.
Originally posted by TacDavey
And of course we wouldn't think of a person as all loving and all just. Because they are a person. And as such do not have those traits, as far as I know. If there was a person who we knew was all loving and all just (somehow) then yes, I would consider their actions justified because it's logically impossible for them to perform an unjust action.
Apparently all you need is book citing that you are all loving and just to make it so. Anyone with access to Kinko's could do that. and even if a person had that, and was commiting some of these actions, it would still be logical that said person was not all loving and just correct? Because it would be much more logical that he was misguided or diturbed to put it lightly. Why is this not the case with God?
Originally posted by socool8520
I'm sorry, but this makes no sense to me. How is he by definition all loving and all just when he does things, that by very definition, are unjust? Was he not the one who said murder was a sin, and yet He seems to do it on a mass scale. How is that a characteristic of love and righteousness? I can not see how "Because I say I'm Just", can be a logical rationale for a perfect being to use to break his own commandment. I'm sure Hitler felt all loving and just (at least for his people), when he tried to rid the world of anyone who didn't fit the mold of his perfect race, but I think we can all see the flaw in His logic can't we? How is what God has done that much different? Just because He makes a claim that He is all knowing and just really doesn't cut it for me when he contradicts himself by doing things things that really aren't that just or loving.
Originally posted by socool8520
Apparently all you need is book citing that you are all loving and just to make it so. Anyone with access to Kinko's could do that. and even if a person had that, and was commiting some of these actions, it would still be logical that said person was not all loving and just correct? Because it would be much more logical that he was misguided or diturbed to put it lightly. Why is this not the case with God?
You're missing it. If an all just being commits an action, that action cannot be unjust. It's logically impossible. Even if it seems unjust to you.
Let's take it one step at a time. Do you consider the God of the Bible an unjust being?
Originally posted by TacDavey
You're missing it. If an all just being commits an action, that action cannot be unjust. It's logically impossible. Even if it [B]seems unjust to you.Let's take it one step at a time. Do you consider the God of the Bible an unjust being? [/B]
No, I don't consider him to be absolutely just. Honestly, do you find those actions to be just and fair?
You obviously understand my point of view, but I'm not quite sure I understand yours. Are you saying that HE is Just based solely on the fact that He claims that He is, and it is cited in a book? But by that logic, if i had a book made about me that stated that I was infallible, all loving, and all just, no matter what suffering I caused afterwards, it wou;d be just? Does that make sense to you?
Originally posted by socool8520
No, I don't consider him to be absolutely just. Honestly, do you find those actions to be just and fair?You obviously understand my point of view, but I'm not quite sure I understand yours. Are you saying that HE is Just based solely on the fact that He claims that He is, and it is cited in a book? But by that logic, if i had a book made about me that stated that I was infallible, all loving, and all just, no matter what suffering I caused afterwards, it wou;d be just? Does that make sense to you?
It isn't just because He has a book that says so. That book has to be true (Which is really another discussion completely). The problem is, people tend to take accounts from the Bible, such as the destruction of cities and such, and use those to claim that God is performing unjust actions.
When they do this, however, they completely skip over the parts that say that God is all just. And that's cherry picking. You cannot use one part of the Bible as an argument and ignore the other part of the very same Bible that refutes your argument.
So in a nut shell, if we are talking about the God of the Bible then the actions are not unjust. They cannot be unjust. If we are talking about a God that can perform unjust actions then we are talking about a God who is not the God of the Bible.
EDIT: Just because it might be easier to see it I'll put it in argument form.
P1: God cannot perform unjust actions
P2: God performed (insert action here)
C: (insert action here) was not an unjust action.
Originally posted by TacDaveythis is among the most retarded shit I have ever seen in my life. so no action atributed to the judeo-christian god in the bible can be considered unjust because god is just by definition? this isnt just a circular thought logical fallacy (god is just regardless of his actions because he is god and god is just) it is comically medieval thinking.
It isn't just because He has a book that says so. That book has to be true (Which is really another discussion completely). The problem is, people tend to take accounts from the Bible, such as the destruction of cities and such, and use those to claim that God is performing unjust actions.When they do this, however, they completely skip over the parts that say that God is all just. And that's cherry picking. You cannot use one part of the Bible as an argument and ignore the other part of the very same Bible that refutes your argument.
So in a nut shell, if we are talking about the God of the Bible then the actions are not unjust. They [B]cannot
be unjust. If we are talking about a God that can perform unjust actions then we are talking about a God who is not the God of the Bible.EDIT: Just because it might be easier to see it I'll put it in argument form.
P1: God cannot perform unjust actions
P2: God performed (insert action here)
C: (insert action here) was not an unjust action. [/B]
Originally posted by TacDaveywhjat determines justice in an action are the merits of the action itself and just actions characterize just agents, not the other way arround. the only logical problem lies in accepting the fallacy that justice is defined as god's action.
You're missing it. If an all just being commits an action, that action cannot be unjust. It's logically impossible. Even if it [B]seems unjust to you.Let's take it one step at a time. Do you consider the God of the Bible an unjust being? [/B]
since the bible was written by bronze age scribes representing the dominant values of their cultures and the political interests of their patrons, and not by god, it's not surprising that it conflicts with just about any coherent contemporary concept of justice.
Originally posted by TacDavey
It isn't just because He has a book that says so. That book has to be true (Which is really another discussion completely). The problem is, people tend to take accounts from the Bible, such as the destruction of cities and such, and use those to claim that God is performing unjust actions.When they do this, however, they completely skip over the parts that say that God is all just. And that's cherry picking. You cannot use one part of the Bible as an argument and ignore the other part of the very same Bible that refutes your argument.
So in a nut shell, if we are talking about the God of the Bible then the actions are not unjust. They [B]cannot
be unjust. If we are talking about a God that can perform unjust actions then we are talking about a God who is not the God of the Bible.EDIT: Just because it might be easier to see it I'll put it in argument form.
P1: God cannot perform unjust actions
P2: God performed (insert action here)
C: (insert action here) was not an unjust action. [/B]
WOW! is all i can say.
that has to be the most pathetically stupid argument for god's righteousness that i have EVER heard. i am SOOOOOOO happy that i stopped debating with you when i did, because seeing this, your too far gone.
there is such a thing as inconcistancy/contradiction/self contradiction. if the claims in the bible are to be seen as premises to be accepted then the first logical imperitive before any conclusion can be judged true or false based on such premises, is to see whether they contradict themselves. if they do, then the premises can be rejected as false{which is the first thing that kills the credibility of the bible}. you do NOT however, take the moronic step of saying that two DEMONSTRABLY contradictory premises are infact not contradictory.
infanticide and genocide is NOT LOVE. and no amount of justification will ever make it.
it just tells you the dream world in which so many beleivers live in to be able to make statements like that.
Joseph Stalin has books calling him all-just. Most of the accounts in the bible are supposedly TOLD to Moses by God; the receiver of the word, never even saw them. It is especially funny that God is held at his word of being all-just, all powerful, when God never demonstrated anything to the jews that a powerful demon couldn't have done.
By the by, I'll be gone for a few days and will be unable to respond to your posts until then.
Originally posted by 753
this is among the most retarded shit I have ever seen in my life. so no action atributed to the judeo-christian god in the bible can be considered unjust because god is just by definition? this isnt just a circular thought logical fallacy (god is just regardless of his actions because he is god and god is just) it is comically medieval thinking.
Hey, there is no need to insult one another here. If you disagree with my stance you may point out why and we can talk about it.
You seem to misunderstand the argument. This is not circular logic at all. God is, by definition, all just. That means it is logically impossible for Him to perform an unjust action. It simply cannot be done.
The problem is that the actions that you label "unjust" are labeled unjust by you.
So you would basically be saying a logically unacceptable statement when you said "An all just being is performing unjust actions." It may seem unjust to you. But it cannot be unjust. It's not logically possible.
Originally posted by 753
whjat determines justice in an action are the merits of the action itself and just actions characterize just agents, not the other way arround. the only logical problem lies in accepting the fallacy that justice is defined as god's action.since the bible was written by bronze age scribes representing the dominant values of their cultures and the political interests of their patrons, and not by god, it's not surprising that it conflicts with just about any coherent contemporary concept of justice.
You misunderstand. I'm not simply saying unjust actions performed by God are just actions when He performs it. I'm saying the actions that seem unjust to us cannot truely be unjust because if they were, God would not be able to perform them.
Originally posted by leonheartmm
WOW! is all i can say.that has to be the most pathetically stupid argument for god's righteousness that i have EVER heard. i am SOOOOOOO happy that i stopped debating with you when i did, because seeing this, your too far gone.
there is such a thing as inconcistancy/contradiction/self contradiction. if the claims in the bible are to be seen as premises to be accepted then the first logical imperitive before any conclusion can be judged true or false based on such premises, is to see whether they contradict themselves. if they do, then the premises can be rejected as false{which is the first thing that kills the credibility of the bible}. you do NOT however, take the moronic step of saying that two DEMONSTRABLY contradictory premises are infact not contradictory.
infanticide and genocide is NOT LOVE. and no amount of justification will ever make it.
it just tells you the dream world in which so many beleivers live in to be able to make statements like that.
I believe I was the one who ended our last debate, and I'm glad I did so. It seems you are still incapable of having a rational debate. I'll offer the same thing to you this time as I did last time. When you can put away your insults and have a peaceful, respectful debate I'll be waiting. Until then, I'm not wasting my time or yours.
Originally posted by TacDaveyquestion: what charatcerizes an action as just?
By the by, I'll be gone for a few days and will be unable to respond to your posts until then.Hey, there is no need to insult one another here. If you disagree with my stance you may point out why and we can talk about it.
You seem to misunderstand the argument. This is not circular logic at all. God is, by definition, all just. That means it is [B]logically impossible
for Him to perform an unjust action. It simply cannot be done.The problem is that the actions that you label "unjust" are labeled unjust by you.
So you would basically be saying a logically unacceptable statement when you said "An all just being is performing unjust actions." It may seem unjust to you. But it cannot be unjust. It's not logically possible.
You misunderstand. I'm not simply saying unjust actions performed by God are just actions when He performs it. I'm saying the actions that seem unjust to us cannot truely be unjust because if they were, God would not be able to perform them.
I believe I was the one who ended our last debate, and I'm glad I did so. It seems you are still incapable of having a rational debate. I'll offer the same thing to you this time as I did last time. When you can put away your insults and have a peaceful, respectful debate I'll be waiting. Until then, I'm not wasting my time or yours. [/B]
Originally posted by TacDavey
By the by, I'll be gone for a few days and will be unable to respond to your posts until then.Hey, there is no need to insult one another here. If you disagree with my stance you may point out why and we can talk about it.
You seem to misunderstand the argument. This is not circular logic at all. God is, by definition, all just. That means it is [B]logically impossible
for Him to perform an unjust action. It simply cannot be done.The problem is that the actions that you label "unjust" are labeled unjust by you.
So you would basically be saying a logically unacceptable statement when you said "An all just being is performing unjust actions." It may seem unjust to you. But it cannot be unjust. It's not logically possible.
You misunderstand. I'm not simply saying unjust actions performed by God are just actions when He performs it. I'm saying the actions that seem unjust to us cannot truely be unjust because if they were, God would not be able to perform them.
I believe I was the one who ended our last debate, and I'm glad I did so. It seems you are still incapable of having a rational debate. I'll offer the same thing to you this time as I did last time. When you can put away your insults and have a peaceful, respectful debate I'll be waiting. Until then, I'm not wasting my time or yours. [/B]
Originally posted by TacDavey
Hey, there is no need to insult one another here. If you disagree with my stance you may point out why and we can talk about it.You seem to misunderstand the argument. This is not circular logic at all. God is, by definition, all just. That means it is [B]logically impossible
for Him to perform an unjust action. It simply cannot be done.The problem is that the actions that you label "unjust" are labeled unjust by you.
So you would basically be saying a logically unacceptable statement when you said "An all just being is performing unjust actions." It may seem unjust to you. But it cannot be unjust. It's not logically possible.
You misunderstand. I'm not simply saying unjust actions performed by God are just actions when He performs it. I'm saying the actions that seem unjust to us cannot truely be unjust because if they were, God would not be able to perform them.
[/B]
To the first part, agreed. Insulting each other just makes us sound like politicians.
Second, it's not just that the actions are unjust to me or others who feel the same way. the actions are unjust to God as well. Was it not He who made the Commandments? Did he not say that murder is a sin, pretty much the definition of an unjust action? Yet, He has done it or had others do it for Him, which signifies to me that He can perform unjust actions and in turn, is not all-just. That is not by my definition, that is by His. Lawmakers are not exempt from their own laws.