Originally posted by MRasheedin that case god wanted us to think for ourselves, even if it lead us to the 'wrong' conclusions.
The flesh is weak, but humans are not flawed. They function the way they were made to function. In that they are perfect. The Creator knew what He was doing.
the creator knew what he was doing.
Originally posted by red g jacks
in that case god wanted us to think for ourselves, even if it lead us to the 'wrong' conclusions.
That's exactly right.
In addition, He made sure we had access to His Word and knew what the rules of the Game were. So even if we make the decision that the Word, God, heaven and hell aren't real...
...we can't say we didn't know about it when it is time for Judgment.
Originally posted by MRasheed
That's exactly right.In addition, He made sure we had access to His Word and knew what the rules of the Game were. So even if we make the decision that the Word, God, heaven and hell aren't real...
...we can't say we didn't know about it when it is time for Judgment.
Except "access to His Word" really isn't accessable to everyone, in real world practice.
So what kind of "game" is it if someone fails to meet the criteria simply because they were never given the chance to accept "His Word" or not.
i can say i haven't been shown any good reason to believe in it. i'm guessing there is no god because religious myths have been debunked time and time again.
your answer to this would be "read the quran"
a christian's answer to this would be "read the bible"
neither of your books strike me as all that convincing
Originally posted by MRasheedwow, you suck at debating. You can't even look at things from someone else's point of view. And no, that scenario is not unrealistic, there are lots of people who never get taught true gospel. I agree that lots of people "hear" about God, but that doesn't mean that everyone who ever lived has had equal opportunity to learn about him and his gospel.
Not even a little bit. Why would it? God is separate from His creation. All rules apply to us not to Him. He only influences things if He wills it, and He doesn't interfere with Free Will. It wouldn't be fair.No.
No, it doesn't. Everybody encounters the Word of God at some point in their life. Everybody. Your scenario is unrealistic.
No. Why don't you pretend to repent and bow down to the Lord who made you.
He defined what is 'good' and what is 'evil' and then instructed us in how to live. Your concept of a Godless 'good' is completely and utterly false.
Anyway, it is clear to me that you are far to dense to reason with, so I will simply leave you with that. Have fun damning everyone who disagrees with you to hell.
Originally posted by Robtard
Except "access to His Word" really isn't accessable to everyone, in real world practice.So what kind of "game" is it if someone fails to meet the criteria simply because they were never given the chance to accept "His Word" or not.
The Koran actually addresses that apparent loophole, for "those who hath not heard the word". On the Day of Reckoning (in the Koran) people who lived before Islam and others who never had the option to hear and accept it or turn it down (eg: lost Amazonian tribes) will all be gathered before the Lord. Allah will speak unto them, deliver an ulitmatum, and then judge them accordingly.
"Of all who plot, it is He who plots best".
Originally posted by Quiero Mota
The Koran actually addresses that apparent loophole, for "those who hath not heard the word". On the Day of Reckoning (in the Koran) people who lived before Islam and others who never had the option to hear and accept it or turn it down (eg: lost Amazonian tribes) will all be gathered before the Lord. Allah will speak unto them, deliver an ulitmatum, and then judge them accordingly."Of all who plot, it is He who plots best".
Was not aware of that loophole in that book. Guess when you come last, it's easier to fill in the potholes.
But then I'm to assume the KMC Islamic doesn't really know his own book(not surprising), as he's said "Everybody encounters the Word of God at some point in their life. Everybody." When he could have just gone with that loophole you posted.
It's sad when someone is trying to sell something and they're not fully knowledgeable of what they're selling. Like in the mid late 90's, my friend was looking at buying a 90-91 Iroc Z Camaro, he took me along as I know a bit about cars and he knows nothing. The sales-man actually said "this car is also a safe car, it's front-wheel drive; that gives you better control." I nearly pissed myself laughing.
Originally posted by MRasheed
That's exactly right.In addition, He made sure we had access to His Word and knew what the rules of the Game were. So even if we make the decision that the Word, God, heaven and hell aren't real...
...we can't say we didn't know about it when it is time for Judgment.
I have always wondered ... What about those who don't have access to His words? There are tribes and societies all across the world that's never heard of God, nor has He properly approached them.
In fact, if the theory of God wasn't taught in school, a majority in the world would barely know of Him as it is, let alone know why people worship him (Even less knowing how to save your own soul)
That's one problem I've always had, with any religion that expect things of you: If you don't do it, you go to Hell. If you do X or Y, you go to Hell. If you take thy Lord's name in vain, you go to Hell. What of those who has had no opportunity, that has no clue of the existance of God, that live so resort that the idea of wide theology is alien them? Why must they lose their souls for all time, simply because the open society haven't reached them?
What does the good book say about those people?
Originally posted by Quiero Mota
Well, the Koran says "Our signs are everywhere [in nature]. Look around, art thou eyes not bedazzled by Our handiwork? Yet ye still believe not?".He could have been referring to that^ line, or any other numerous (literally hundreds), similar Koranic verses.
Originally posted by Super Marie 64
[B]I have always wondered ... What about those who don't have access to His words? There are tribes and societies all across the world that's never heard of God, nor has He properly approached them.In fact, if the theory of God wasn't taught in school, a majority in the world would barely know of Him as it is, let alone know why people worship him (Even less knowing how to save your own soul)
That's one problem I've always had, with any religion that expect things of you: If you don't do it, you go to Hell. If you do X or Y, you go to Hell. If you take thy Lord's name in vain, you go to Hell. What of those who has had no opportunity, that has no clue of the existance of God, that live so resort that the idea of wide theology is alien them? Why must they lose their souls for all time, simply because the open society haven't reached them?
What does the good book say about those people?
[/B]
Did you miss my response to that point?
Originally posted by Quiero Mota
The Koran actually addresses that apparent loophole, for "those who hath not heard the word". On the Day of Reckoning (in the Koran) people who lived before Islam and others who never had the option to hear and accept it or turn it down (eg: lost Amazonian tribes) will all be gathered before the Lord. Allah will speak unto them, deliver an ulitmatum, and then judge them accordingly."Of all who plot, it is He who plots best".
Originally posted by Quiero Mota
Did you miss my response to that point?
I did, actually. That brings up two questions:
1. Why didn't he inform them earlier, so that they could dedicate their life to him, rather than their afterlife? That in addition to the fact that if they are approached at the end, it's not likely they will trust some random entity that suddenly approach them, no matter how good he appear. Especially if they've come to live according to a (commonly) natural entity as many tribes did.
2. They could've dedicated their whole life to sin, oblivious that it was sin, and upon facing Allah, accept his ultimatum? Quite the kick in the crotch to those who dedicated their life to good, for Allah's embrace. Should they not gain equal opportunity, it is unjust for they were oblivious.
Originally posted by Super Marie 64
I did, actually. That brings up two questions:
And the simple, obvious answer is: Read the Koran.
Doing so would thoroughly answer both questions (which are good questions by the way), because those natural follow-up questions are addressed; the book does a pretty good job of confronting its criticisms. But assuming you don't have the time or will to read it, and I have; I'll do the leg-work for you best I can.
So let's take a look...
Originally posted by Super Marie 64
1. Why didn't he inform them earlier, so that they could dedicate their life to him, rather than their afterlife? That in addition to the fact that if they are approached at the end, it's not likely they will trust some random entity that suddenly approach them, no matter how good he appear. Especially if they've come to live according to a (commonly) natural entity as many tribes did.
Well, according to the Koran, God's first revelation was to Adam at Creation, and then to Moses, and then to Jesus, as well as the other 124,000 lesser prophets that preceded Mohammed. So, humanity received numerous revelations over many eons, with Mohammed being the final. The final one was in the 7th Century A.D. for reasons known "only unto Him". Throughout human history, since the dawn of the species, there have been relevations from prophets sent to all tribes in all parts of the globe.
And God won't be a random entity; he will make himself known.
Originally posted by Super Marie 64
2. They could've dedicated their whole life to sin, oblivious that it was sin, and upon facing Allah, accept his ultimatum? Quite the kick in the crotch to those who dedicated their life to good, for Allah's embrace. Should they not gain equal opportunity, it is unjust for they were oblivious.
Actually it isn't sin, because a person must know its a sin. The ignorant can be pardoned for not being aware something is prohibited, because "they hath not any forewarning". So some tribe living in the South American jungle worshipping idols, who has never heard of the Koranic laws, has technically not sinned. You must be told or warned, and then knowingly, conciously disobey it. In legal terms: volition or, mens rea (willful mind) is required.
And it wouldn't be an insult to those who obeyed during their physical life. Quite the opposite: it would boost their standing in the eyes of Allah. Since they poured their lifes' works into Islam, and "beleived and did the deeds that are upright", they will reap the rewards. They will gain entry into a better tier of Paradise then an outright sinner who is merely forgiven, ie: given God's grace through little or no merit of his own.
Originally posted by red g jacks
yea they have the advantage of actually knowing god is real when they make their decision. we shouldn't be worried about all the people who never heard allah's word, they're the lucky ones.
That doesn't necessarily make them lucky, or earn them entry into Heaven.
maybe my understanding is simply off...
the way i pictured it is that come judgment day, god is going to give an 'ultimatum' to all those who never heard 'his word'
i thought this meant they could choose to follow him or go to hell, just like the rest of us
apparently it means something different... or i'm missing something here...
The way Judgment day is presented is that the dead and the living will be judged before god. If people were sent to hell they would get a re-sentence (which doesn't make any sense, but hey it's a small break from the flames) The goats on the left and sheep on the right. The sheep get to go to heaven the goats go back into hell, the living will also be sentenced to hell, if you're in the goat line. lol