The Battle for "Psionic Supreme"

Started by LordKaos5 pages

Originally posted by 753
^ please, this makes no sense. the PF existed since the dawn of the universe - and before that, having birthed it after the last one died according to x-men forever - and has inhabitted a list of hosts before jean grey was ever born. everything about jean's connecion to it can be explained as her being a favoured host and that alternate future by morrison you mentioned showed quentin quire and a million others as hosts in the white room (mkraan crystal).

the entity has been called phoenix by characters not related to jean, includign abstracts.

jean has not always been the phoenix itself and while she may have merged with it by the end of endsong, this doesn't retcon the original explanation of the DP saga - that the power was all hers - back into continuity. clearly, the phoenix exists by itself, independent of jean and and JG herself has not always manifested the PF, even if one might claim she's had a lingering connection to it.

The Phoenix Force made it's debut in comics with Jean Grey and thus was called the Phoenix after that in every back issue regarding a once nameless non-sentient force, as I tried to explain before the use of the name in retrospect is for the sake of the reader, why not continue to call it what it is after it's first appearance? When it hosted that Shi'ar it was not called Phoenix it was called Phalkon and Feron and company first referred to it as a celestial elemental or something like that. None of this makes it and Jean being the same any less true. The very nature of the White Hot Room explains how a mutant can be one and the same with a force that is older than the universe, you are always there waiting for yourself to arrive, this is a realm that is outside of time and space, the nexus of all realties, Jean is a piece of the whole, she is it's body when she is in the mortal coil, her blood can give you it's power, her genes can cause you to inherit it's power.
I give no argument that it is not independent of her, she was born billions of years later, yet she was always connected to it even before the shuttle, it had been a part of her, an aspect of her that reached out to Scott when he was in the orphanage was an adult Jean surrounded by the raptor and flame. The Phoenix has always been a part of Jean Grey and Jean has always been a part of the Phoenix in no way means that the Phoenix was created by Jean. It means Jean was created to be it's body, the house where it lives and was just as much a missing piece during Endsong as the rogue piece that thought it needed Scotts power to heal. It was hurt and confused and it went to find Jean, Rachel was on Earth if all it needed was a host (and she was another of it's favs "the Phoenix likes me remember"😉 she would have been sufficient, but she wasn't. why because the longing and confusion that piece felt was from Jean, that's why it thought it needed Scott, until Jean came and let it know otherwise. And like I said the White Phoenix merge happened in HCT before Endsong, and before this Jean was already White Phoenix after the suicide of DP, she was shown in the center of creation creating afterlives for the beings DP killed, which adds more credence to the whole Jean is Phoenix, Phoenix is Jean and the you are always there waiting for yourself to arrive. At least four times in different points in Xmen history Jean has been shown in the afterlife as White Phoenix.

what you are arguing is metafictional. of course phoenix first appeared connected to jean, it was created through a retcon to be that way as in the original story phoenix was just the codename jean adopted when her powers developed. abstracts refer to it as the phoenix force and the flaming bird signature was dispalyed by hosts prior to jean.

the cryptic literary embelishments used by morrison can be interpreted in a million different ways and while your watchmen like interpretation of the timeflow in marvel is certainly elegant and appealing, it's not really conclusive evidence of anything.

we know the following, the PF predates JG and has possessed a number of hosts. JG has not manifested the force or even been connected to continuously throughout her life. endsong says theyre one. I prefer to view it as JG merging with phoenix at that point.

were the other hosts in the white hot room parts of the PF as well? are all hosts? QQ calls her a white phoenix of the crown. is he the only one? is hse more phoenix than him and the others? what about all the moments she did not manifest the force or had no powers? there is too much to explain if we assume shed been the PF all along.

Originally posted by 753
what you are arguing is metafictional. of course phoenix first appeared connected to jean, it was created through a retcon to be that way as in the original story phoenix was just the codename jean adopted when her powers developed. abstracts refer to it as the phoenix force and the flaming bird signature was dispalyed by hosts prior to jean.

the cryptic literary embelishments used by morrison can be interpreted in a million different ways and while your watchmen like interpretation of the timeflow in marvel is certainly elegant and appealing, it's not really conclusive evidence of anything.

we know the following, the PF predates JG and has possessed a number of hosts. JG has not manifested the force or even been connected to continuously throughout her life. endsong says theyre one. I prefer to view it as JG merging with phoenix at that point.

were the other hosts in the white hot room parts of the PF as well? are all hosts? QQ calls her [b]a white phoenix of the crown. is he the only one? is hse more phoenix than him and the others? what about all the moments she did not manifest the force or had no powers? there is too much to explain if we assume shed been the PF all along. [/B]

I have given you an instance in her life before becoming an Xmen in which an aspect of her consciousness manifested as Phoenix establishing an early connection between the two, her conversation with Death when she first appeared as White Phoenix is about how the Phoenix is her birthright, which suggests that she was chosen even before her birth. Her not continuously manifesting it or showing a connection is due to Jean refusing to accept being Phoenix until Xmen Forever when it is mentioned that her connection to the Phoenix is a result of human evolution and not simply being a host or favorite. When Jean has died and travels to the afterlife that afterlife is the center of creation and in all instances when she is shown there she is White Phoenix, White Phoenix represents Jeans complete merge with the Phoenix this has been happening since before Endsong.
She is more Phoenix than them because she is the White Phoenix, it's apparent in What if Vulcan became Phoenix, all the other hosts are "killed" the power of the Phoenix they wield is absorbed, there are no more hosts only Vulcan and yet, Jean because she is the Phoenix and not a host is still active and in control over all the power he took. All this happens in the nexus of all realities in Marvel making it cannon for Jean/White Phoenix since there is only one in the multiverse.

Originally posted by LordKaos
it's apparent in What if... making it cannon

wut?

Originally posted by inimalist
wut?

White Phoenix is a single being in the multiverse there is only one, just like LT all his appearances are canon for his character, not to mention this action took place inside the M'Kraan crystal in the Nexus of Realties, all appearances of the single crystal are canon for the crystal. Was that 616 Vulcan? No, When he left the White Hot Room did he go to 616 no, so yeah that's not canon for Vulcan or 616, but White Phoenix, on top of being what's mentioned above, is 616 Jean Grey fully merged with the Phoenix Force.

lol, WUT?!?!

Originally posted by inimalist
lol, WUT?!?!

I get what he' saying. The PF is a multiversal power. I had the scans both on panel and handbooks but I'm too tired to find/post them. I'll do it later if there's still debate.

The M'krann Crytal exists in all universes in the 616 multiverse simultaneously.

The PF's homeplane, the White Hot Room is located at the heart of the Crystal.

Hence there's only on PF throughtout the multiverse, just like the LT.

yes, but marvel has stated in no uncertain terms that "what if" stories are not cannon.

I suppose your scan could say "this what if is cannon", but short of that, I'm going with company policy here

Originally posted by inimalist
yes, but marvel has stated in no uncertain terms that "what if" stories are not cannon.

I suppose your scan could say "this what if is cannon", but short of that, I'm going with company policy here

No really. This "What if" is as canon as anything in 616 reality.

Follow the logic :

There is only ONE M'krann Crystal and it exists in all universes in the multiverse simultaneously (stated on panel AND in handbooks)

The PF's home plane is the White Hot Room in the heart of the M'krann Crystal (stated both on panel AND in handbooks).

The PF is a multiversal power (stated in the PF handbook) and shown on panel.

IF there is only ONE M'krann Crystal in the entire multiverse
IF the PF's home plane is located at the heart of the Crystal
THEN there is only one PF and all it's showings in the various realities are canon, exactly as stated for the LT and Immortus and others who share this unique property.

can't argue with that logic.

The White Hot Room is the nexus of all realities. So Vulcan murdering the Phoenix Corps is Canon in the sense that the Phoenix Corps existing in the M'Kraan Crystal are all dead.

I think the Phoenix Force is on same level of power and standing as Living Tribunal

Only thing above them both is TOAA

Originally posted by Konton
Jean was retconned to BE the Phoenix. I only chose Jean here anyway because the topic creator specified White Phoenix of the Crown in his list. She, in my opinion, has the best psionic feats.

agreed. but i don't think she should even be ON the list. she's too far above any of these others.

based on a more 'normalized' list (full potential frank shouldn't be here either imo) i'm surprised cassie hasn't gotten more love. she was a beast. shaman was uber as well. problem is the more powerful people don't have the number of feats. so while they are likely greater, the lesser characters HAVE the feats. tough to tell using these stips, tbh.

Originally posted by zopzop
No really. This "What if" is as canon as anything in 616 reality.

Follow the logic :

There is only ONE M'krann Crystal and it exists in all universes in the multiverse simultaneously (stated on panel AND in handbooks)

The PF's home plane is the White Hot Room in the heart of the M'krann Crystal (stated both on panel AND in handbooks).

The PF is a multiversal power (stated in the PF handbook) and shown on panel.

IF there is only ONE M'krann Crystal in the entire multiverse
IF the PF's home plane is located at the heart of the Crystal
THEN there is only one PF and all it's showings in the various realities are canon, exactly as stated for the LT and Immortus and others who share this unique property.

you are using handbooks to show that you know better what is cannon than marvel themselves?

I can't say I buy the arguement /shrug

Originally posted by inimalist
you are using handbooks to show that you know better what is cannon than marvel themselves?

I can't say I buy the arguement /shrug

No reread my post. I'm using handbooks to CONFIRM on panel statements and showings.

ok, yes, sure

like, cool, you can believe that, this isn't a science we can confirm any more than we already have. I think statements from marvel regarding the cannon of What Ifs are what we should use to determine if they are cannon, you think its ok to use inference to come to other conclusions.

I guess my only thinking is, maybe we shouldn't get it into our heads that we know more about marvel than marvel

Originally posted by inimalist
ok, yes, sure

like, cool, you can believe that, this isn't a science we can confirm any more than we already have. I think statements from marvel regarding the cannon of What Ifs are what we should use to determine if they are cannon, you think its ok to use inference to come to other conclusions.

I guess my only thinking is, maybe we shouldn't get it into our heads that we know more about marvel than marvel

Genius, there are events in "What if's" that affect 616 reality. Check the whole "Time Quake" arc!

A "What if" version of Anomaly Maelstrom knocked Quasar into another multiverse and Quasar brought back the Starbrand to 616 reality.

These are just a few examples off the top of my head.

those seem like pretty specific instances...

Originally posted by inimalist
those seem like pretty specific instances...

I give up with you. bash

Enjoy the thread.

I'm sorry to question you.

Maybe in the future, I will know enough about comics to be swayed by entirely nonpersuasive and inconclusive arguements based on rampant speculation