Originally posted by inimalist
I'm sorry to question you.Maybe in the future, I will know enough about comics to be swayed by entirely nonpersuasive and inconclusive arguements based on rampant speculation
Genius, you can look this up yourself! How about you actually READ the damn comics in question and stop talking out your ass?
In What if : Rise and Fall of the Shiar empire, it was said by Jahf that (a guardian of the M"krann Crystal) he's seen all these events played out before in different realities from deep within the heart of the Crystal that is the nexus of ALL realities.
This wasn't the first time the M'krann Crystal has been mentioned as unique in the multiverse and the nexus of all realities. ON PANEL
The PF's home plane is the White Hot Room in the very heart of the M'krann Crystal. ON PANEL
The PF is the nexus of all psionic energy in the multiverse. ON PANEL.
Now the beautiful thing about this is, it's been backed up by HANDBOOK info. All relatively recent 2005+
But keep running your mouth, it's amusing.
Originally posted by inimalist
hmmm, the arguments you used weren't compelling, but when you started insulting me, thats when I began to agree with your points. cool!
Here you go Einstein, What If - Rise and Fall of the Shiar :
Backed up from the Handbooks, Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe A-Z Update :
I could also get and scan the X-Men issue where it mentions the White Hot Room at the heart of the Crystal as the PF's homeplane but I'm not in the mood right now.
Originally posted by inimalist
again, you become much more convincing when you insult me
At least I'm peppering the "insults" with actual scans, while all you do is run your mouth and act the fool :
The White Hot Room, the Core of Creation, the Heart of the Phoenix. Notice Psylocke amusing herself with ALL her alternate reality selves across the multiverse.
I've actually never challanged you at your word. I believed you had scans that said everything you claimed, so to just post them isn't changing much. Its not that I didn't think you had the evidence you claimed to, its that I've thought that evidence was weak.
I've said "I don't take What If stories as canon". You provided a couple of examples where the 616 universe has explicity interacted with a specific what if story, so that is interesting, but you really haven't provided any evidence that this particular story should be considered canon aside from it containing a refrence to a unique, multiversal entity, with most of this evidence itself coming from sources which are non-canon.
We simply have different standards of evidence here. Do you know how much crazy shit I could make up about Man-Thing using the "nexus of all realities", what ifs and handbooks? No word of a lie, abstract level, its in a handbook. He represents one of the two constant sides to the universe, the Yang, the male, etc.
Originally posted by inimalist
I've actually never challanged you at your word. I believed you had scans that said everything you claimed, so to just post them isn't changing much. Its not that I didn't think you had the evidence you claimed to, its that I've thought that evidence was weak.I've said "I don't take What If stories as canon". You provided a couple of examples where the 616 universe has explicity interacted with a specific what if story, so that is interesting, but you really haven't provided any evidence that this particular story should be considered canon aside from it containing a refrence to a unique, multiversal entity, with most of this evidence itself coming from sources which are non-canon.
We simply have different standards of evidence here. Do you know how much crazy shit I could make up about Man-Thing using the "nexus of all realities", what ifs and handbooks? No word of a lie, abstract level, its in a handbook. He represents one of the two constant sides to the universe, the Yang, the male, etc.
The above scans were from Uncanny X-men 462.
White Hot Room in the heart of the Crystal.
Originally posted by inimalist
Is there a 616 reference that explicity mentions the events of "What if - Rise and Fall of Shi'ar" as being canon?
The issue itself mentions it.
The M'krann Crystal is a multiversal object existing on all planes of reality simultaneously. This has been stated repeatedly on panel. If you cant' understand this basic concept then I don't know what else to say.
The events in that alternate universe (What If - Rise and Fall of the Shiar) are being narrated by Jahf who exists in the Crystal. He explains that since he exists inside the Crystal he sees this all ALL other realities. He explains that this event has played itself out before him countless times.
As soon as Vulcan steps inside the Cyrstal, the events that take place are canon 616 because there is only ONE crystal. He acquires the PF and then steps outside the Crystal back into that universe and wrecks havoc. His havoc his ended by Jean as the Phoenix of the White Crown who pulls him back inside the White Hot Room in the Crystal. His murder of all the other PF corps didn't affect her because she's tied so closely to the PF that she IS the PF.
And at the end we have Jahf witnessing the events that took place INSIDE and OUTSIDE the crystal and commenting.
This was explained to you by the previous poster but you just ignored it.
Originally posted by inimalist
the issue that I see no compelling argument to treat as canon in the first place?
Reading comprehension FAIL for the loss!
There is ONLY ONE M'KRANN CRYSTAL IN ALL THE MULTIVERSE. Stated ON PANEL AND IN THE HANDBOOKS.
The NARRATOR OF THE STORY WAS JAHF WHO EXISTS INSIDE THE CRYSTAL.
THE EVENTS THAT TAKE PLACE WHEN VULCAN FALLS INSIDE THE CRYSTAL ARE BY DEFINITION CANON.
What don't you understand?
Originally posted by zopzop
Reading comprehension FAIL for the loss!There is ONLY ONE M'KRANN CRYSTAL IN ALL THE MULTIVERSE. Stated ON PANEL AND IN THE HANDBOOKS.
The NARRATOR OF THE STORY WAS JAHF WHO EXISTS INSIDE THE CRYSTAL.
THE EVENTS THAT TAKE PLACE WHEN VULCAN FALLS INSIDE THE CRYSTAL ARE BY DEFINITION CANON.
What don't you understand?
ok, let he try to explain how I see it a bit better.
Lets say there is a book. And, by definition, everything in this book is false. There is an absolute 0 probability that it will be true.
Then, I open the book, and it tells me that it is true. Well, it is easy to know what to trust. Regardless of how compelling the books argument for its own truth might be, there is no chance that it might be true.
Like, you have an interesting argument about the nature of the crystal, cool. I'm not debating whether the crystal is multiversal, or any of your interpretations of marvel cosmology. I'm saying you are using sources that aren't canon. Like, it doesn't matter what your conclusions are if the data you are using to make them is bad, they will always be bad conclusions. If they reference the events in 616, like the examples you gave before, I'll eat my hat, for sure, but like, all I'm saying is that Marvel has repeatedly stated that what if isn't canon.
/shrug
Originally posted by inimalist
ok, let he try to explain how I see it a bit better.Lets say there is a book. And, by definition, everything in this book is false. There is an absolute 0 probability that it will be true.
Then, I open the book, and it tells me that it is true. Well, it is easy to know what to trust. Regardless of how compelling the books argument for its own truth might be, there is no chance that it might be true.
Like, you have an interesting argument about the nature of the crystal, cool. I'm not debating whether the crystal is multiversal, or any of your interpretations of marvel cosmology. I'm saying you are using sources that aren't canon. Like, it doesn't matter what your conclusions are if the data you are using to make them is bad, they will always be bad conclusions. If they reference the events in 616, like the examples you gave before, I'll eat my hat, for sure, but like, all I'm saying is that Marvel has repeatedly stated that what if isn't canon.
/shrug
Bro, if it was "my" argument I wouldn't care if you agreed or disagreed, since it was me offering my opinion. This is stated on panel and in the handbooks.
How about this, how bout you provide scans showing this to be false. Ie : the PF is not multiversal, it's home isn't in the heart of the M'krann Crystal, it's home plane isn't the White Hot Room, the M'krann Crystal isn't a multiversal object. It should be easy to prove any of the above false with a retcon.
Do that and I'll shut up otherwise I'm done with this conversation.
I think what he's trying to say is that not everything in the What if RAFOTSE is canon. Just the bit when Vulcan enters the White Hot Room and murders the Phoenix Corps. The Vulcan may be from an AU but those Phoenix Corps residing in the WHR reside in all realities so to speak. Cause there's only one WHR.
But I'm really not what the argument is about or how that changes anything.
