Pan vs Bardock

Originally posted by Q99
Your post just now is the *first* where you've actually provided a reason. Thinking you're joking, or heck, trolling yourself, is hardly odd.

Providing reasons in a thread that lacked reasons (only one had been provided when I made my first post) up to that point is hardly trolling myself.

That post was not addressed to you.

Originally posted by Q99
Sure, it was an annoyance, but the General had a "hah, I'll totally ignore this one" smirk before it connected. This is someone who was expecting to tank and ignore the blow.

Simple inertia: action reaction. He ignored it by not countering with his "equal and opposite" reaction to the force of her attack. Reaction took place.

Simple reason. Not some sort of outlandish reason that she has a power level in the multi-billions without being a super saiyan.

Originally posted by Q99
Also, Trunks couldn't have done that to Buu if he was a few thousand, your example is a super saiyan with a power in the millions.

And trunks was a super-saiyan when he did that. Again, action-reaction. The General did not smash through several cliffs after Pan did her thing.

Meaning:

1. Trunks was much stronger than Pan when he did that to Buu but he still wasn't nearly as strong as Goku was against Freiza.
2. Pan's hit was against a person not worrying about the hit, just like Buu. Buu's outcome? Through several cliffs.

Simple, right? I think so.

I have to leave, so I'll address the rest in 24 hours or so.

Originally posted by Q99
Against Oceanus Shenron, who was able to go against Kid Goku (base form) head on pretty well, her kamehameha was what won the fight, causing major pain and making Oceanus revert to her true form allowing Goku to finish the job.

Let's go with a huge PIS moment on Goku's part.

We go from a Goku whose powerup and clash with Frieza was causing a virtual blackhole maelstrom that absorbed and annihilated the land all around them. That is >>>>>>>>> than anything oceanus pulled off. General Tao would have been more than enough for Oceanus, much less a PIS GT Goku and a relatively weak Pan.

All one has to do is point to the fact that Goku was struggling to prevent a falling building from falling over and indicate how much Goku was struggling....while in SSJ4. That would make him weaker than General Tao....by far. That's PIS, to the max.

Originally posted by Q99
Or for 'effective,' how about able to hold Dr. Gero in his android body? We know that body is far stronger than Yamcha, who was easily into the 10ks when he fought Gero.

Gero was back in Human form. Remember, Android 20 was destroyed. He was resurrected back into a human form and sent to hell, like all of the other hell people.

Evidence? Frieza is "complete" after he is obliterated, back in his biological form.

However, that does not excuse how much of a horrendous piece of shit GT is when it comes to plot continuity: it's retardedly full of PIS which includes showing characters that only appeared in movies, coming from hell.

Originally posted by Q99
Ok, there's a lot of room between 1,000 and 1,000,000. What's your point?

I thought it was obvious: if you're suggesting that she is on a level as high as you are implying, she'd have to be somewhere close to super saiyan WITHOUT transforming. Remember, you said that characters that are much stronger than others do the typical "stand there and do nothing" while the other far weaker character goes to town and "nothing happens." It was also a comment related to my previous one where I had mentioned the external forum Pan fanboys wanking over absurd power-levels for Pan.

Originally posted by Q99
And Goten and Trunks. Three examples, and those two got more power younger than Gohan did.

Incorrect.

Follow the posts to see where you went wrong:

Originally posted by Q99
And, in general, half-saiyans tend to start out with a lot of power, so it makes sense.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Incorrect.

That only example we have is of Gohan but he is the "most" special of all the characters in that he had the most hidden potential.

Goten fought evenly with Chi-Chi who is by-far, not a remarkable fighter compared to the Z-Warriors. Goten overpowered his mother, easily, once he went super-saiyan, but the fact that he wasn't punching through or or launching her many miles with single punches, should more than prove that the Chibi versions of super-saiyans are no where near Goku's initial SSJ transformation.

To which you replied:

Originally posted by Q99
And Goten and Trunks. Three examples, and those two got more power younger than Gohan did.

So we are back to square-one: you last comment is not only incorrect, it is out of context of the conversation. You deleted the rest of my point which more than proved my point.

Gohan having a power-level that shoots, wildly, up and down, as a toddler should be more than enough proof that he had an absurd amount of potential. He was 4 when his power level shot up to 1370, "AND IT'S STILL CLIMBING!" 😆

That power level was much higher than anything seen in Dragonball.

So why did I take us on that journey? Because you think that Gohan, Goten, and Pan are even remotely close to Gohan in his hidden power: not the case. Like I said here:

Originally posted by dadudemon
Goten fought evenly with Chi-Chi who is by-far, not a remarkable fighter compared to the Z-Warriors. Goten overpowered his mother, easily, once he went super-saiyan, but the fact that he wasn't punching through or or launching her many miles with single punches, should more than prove that the Chibi versions of super-saiyans are no where near Goku's initial SSJ transformation.

On top of that, Goten was NOT fighting evenly with his mother: his mom was kicking his ass, which is what sent him over-the-top.

I still think the SSJ transformation provides a 50 fold power increase, minimum, so that explains why his SSJ form, while quite powerful, is not anywhere near his Father's initial first SSJ transformation. That also explains why Chi-Chi wasn't flying miles by his punches (or getting punched clean through by Goten.) Goten, obviously, gets stronger, base form, since his fight with his mother...as does Trunks.

In conclusion, only Gohan had immense hidden powers: Goten and Trunks are the exact opposite: their potentials are seen from 7 or 8 years old. When Gohan was 11, he went SSJ2: something that neither Goten nor Trunks can claim to have done. As Gotenks, they went SSJ3, but fusion realizes a significant exponential jump in power. But neither of them are ever shown going SSJ2, on their own.

Originally posted by Q99
As a general rule of thumb it is the case though.

I agree, for the most part, but it isn't always the case. Obvciously, Pan's was an exception because he stated that he was going to ignore her.

Originally posted by Q99
No, but she rarely runs into someone her own level- she does show very high speed occasion (like when she saved a kid from a deflected Kamehameha during the Oceanus Shenron fight), and was much too fast for Haze Shenron to do squat about, for example.

I do not see that as speed being higher than anything required of by 22nd "Tenkaichi Budokai" levels. Yes, sub 200 power level speed.

Originally posted by Q99
No. You're providing examples on why she's not in the millions. This does not make her down near 1k, which is what you're claiming.

No, that's EXACTLY what that means. I'm providing examples that proves that she's barely in the 1000s. (I estimate that she's at most less than 5000.) It makes her down near 1000, which is what I'm claiming. You're obviously claiming near-super saiyan level (or more), which is ludicrous.

Originally posted by Q99
Proving one thing does not prove another, and there's a huge gap between millions and your sub-10k claim that you're excluding. It's a strawman to attack high-end claims and say that proves very low-end ones.

Several things wrong with this:

1. It certainly does prove the other especially when they are so very complementary.

2. There's I reason I'm excluding that gap: she hasn't shown anything that even remotely suggests that we should consider that huge gap.

3. It's not a strawman to show you why the high-end feats are not indicative of a power-level in the millions. However, it is a strawman to mislabel me correcting your gross overestimation of Pan's abilities as "attacking." It's a futile angle to try and change the argument to defending why I was attacking Pan's feats when I was doing no such things: I was deconstructing your misinterpretation of those feats.

4. The feats do not prove very low-end ones: it shows a very linear power level that makes what you are incorrectly stating as "high-end feats" they are all about the same level: sub 5000 but MAYBE over 1000.

Originally posted by Q99
I didn't say it was. It's not what she has, though.

Follow along:

You said:

Originally posted by Q99
Conversely, what makes you think that she's weak?

To which I replied:

Originally posted by dadudemon
A power-level of less than 5000 is NOT weak.

To which you have replied:

Originally posted by Q99
I didn't say it was. It's not what she has, though.

Which makes your comment definitely wrong.

I've stated she's less than 5000.

You then paint that opinion as me calling her weak.

I then tell you that 5000 is NOT weak.

Now you claim to have never stated that 5000 is weak when you directly implied that the post prior.

Originally posted by Q99
Your tone is definitely hostile and a half.

Incorrect.

You've posted on these boards more than long enough to know that my tone is not even remotely hostile. If you take these conversations out of context and imagine angry fingers slamming on a keyboard as posts are typed, you should probably log-out and take a break: you're taking this shit waaaaay too seriously.

If anything, your comments have been hostile such as mislabeling what I'm doing as "attacking Pan's feats" and trying to dodge two points. Those are not becoming of friendly posts about DBZ. Kento and I have argued pages without hostile attitudes: there's no reason to try and mislabel because you're upset at me. I can argue like crazy, but I DO NOT think you're stupid and I DO NOT think you're stupid for wanting Pan to be so strong.

Originally posted by Q99
Her highest feats are far in excess of 5k.

If the stuff you mentioned is what you think are "high-end feats" then, no, you can barely make a case for 1000.

Originally posted by Q99
The Dr. Gero feat's probably the most clear, but her fights against Oceanus and Haze Shenron and General Rilldo also put her as much higher.

As I've clearly shown, that comment is wrong in every way.

Originally posted by danteiscool
now as much I like Bardock and as much as I definitely don't like Pan, I have to agree that while Bardock is badass while Pan isn't, Pan does have her share of feats that place her higher than what some say. hell, at the end of DBZ she flew around the world in... well, I can't remember how many hours it took, but considering her age at the time, it's certainly impressive.

She flew around the world in two minutes... not hours.
And goku told her that "that" was still too slow.

Originally posted by carver9
She flew around the world in two minutes... not hours.
And goku told her that "that" was still too slow.

Wah?

Do you have a scan to back that up because I could have sworn it was much longer than that.

Wow this thread pains me with it's stupidity.

Pan wins. 😐

We go from a Goku whose powerup and clash with Frieza was causing a virtual blackhole maelstrom that absorbed and annihilated the land all around them. That is >>>>>>>>> than anything oceanus pulled off. General Tao would have been more than enough for Oceanus, much less a PIS GT Goku and a relatively weak Pan.

He fought Oceanus in non-Super form, of course he wasn't using his Frieza levels.

But even base-form Kid Goku is fighting way, way above 10k.

You're trying to write it off by calling it PIS, but your reason for doing so seems to be 'you don't like that it contradicts your arguments'.

And it's backed up by other fights.

Gero was back in Human form. Remember, Android 20 was destroyed. He was resurrected back into a human form and sent to hell, like all of the other hell people.

Evidence? Frieza is "complete" after he is obliterated, back in his biological form.

Gero was in Android form for whatever reason, when Super 17 killed him he was blasted to pieces and clearly an android.

We saw he was an android in the most clear way possible.

However, that does not excuse how much of a horrendous piece of shit GT is when it comes to plot continuity: it's retardedly full of PIS which includes showing characters that only appeared in movies, coming from hell.

You might not like GT, but Pan's feats in it still suggest way higher, and there's multiple of them.

If one character regularly has 'PIS high showings,' and other stuff doesn't contradict it, that's not PIS, that's how strong someone is.

If you don't like GT, it doesn't mean GT says what you want it to say.

You've posted on these boards more than long enough to know that my tone is not even remotely hostile. If you take these conversations out of context and imagine angry fingers slamming on a keyboard as posts are typed, you should probably log-out and take a break: you're taking this shit waaaaay too seriously.

I'm not picturing that. I'm just saying the language you're using is hostile. You can use hostile tone in your writing without being frothing in the mouth at your computer.

You're writing significantly more aggressively than you do in other threads.

If the stuff you mentioned is what you think are "high-end feats" then, no, you can barely make a case for 1000.

You're just leaping to that number by disregarding GT feats and calling them all PIS.

You aren't posting feats that suggests she's 1k, merely trying to write off the higher ones and assuming it.

Anyway, between Gero-in-android-body and Oceanus, especially Gero, the case is pretty solid. Pan's stronger than 10k.

Despite Bardock's manliness, he gets beaten by his great grand-daughter in a fashion that makes him look like her great grand-mother.

On a side note, 1k is way too low for her to even itch some of the enemies they fight despite the GT inconsistencies.

Pan one shots bardock.

Originally posted by Q99
He fought Oceanus in non-Super form, of course he wasn't using his Frieza levels.

But even base-form Kid Goku is fighting way, way above 10k.

You're trying to write it off by calling it PIS, but your reason for doing so seems to be 'you don't like that it contradicts your arguments'.

And it's backed up by other fights.

Incorrect.

It is one of the best examples of PIS from GT. It contradicts previous, canon, power showings, which is why it's PIS. And it's not backed up by other fights.

Oceanus is a sub 1000s power level, easily.

Originally posted by Q99
Gero was in Android form for whatever reason, when Super 17 killed him he was blasted to pieces and clearly an android.

We saw he was an android in the most clear way possible.

Then his power level was sub easily 1000. OR it's a massive pile of PIS.

Gero in GT does not show any power or strength above a human form in any way.

Originally posted by Q99
You might not like GT, but Pan's feats in it still suggest way higher, and there's multiple of them.

Incorrect. Those are lovely PIS moments.

Additionally, I own more of GT than any other series.

Originally posted by Q99
If one character regularly has 'PIS high showings,' and other stuff doesn't contradict it, that's not PIS, that's how strong someone is.

Incorrect. It's not "PIS" high showings. It's PIS low showings.

You're missing that.

Low showing for Goku.

Low showing for Gero.

Those are the PIS vectors: NOT Pan.

Originally posted by Q99
If you don't like GT, it doesn't mean GT says what you want it to say.

I like it, but I consider it a separate series away from the canon lines due to the many contradictions and PIS.

And you want Pan to be stronger than she is. She just doesn't have the showings you want her to have.

Originally posted by Q99
I'm not picturing that. I'm just saying the language you're using is hostile. You can use hostile tone in your writing without being frothing in the mouth at your computer.

You're writing significantly more aggressively than you do in other threads.

I disagree. And none of my posts have been hostile.

Originally posted by Q99
You're just leaping to that number by disregarding GT feats and calling them all PIS.

Again, you're cofusing the vector for PIS.

Originally posted by Q99
You aren't posting feats that suggests she's 1k, merely trying to write off the higher ones and assuming it.

No, you're posting feats that suggest that while confusing PIS from other characters for her high-end feats.

You're writing off feats from other characters which have known strength levels far in excess of Pan's and then pretending that Pan's high-end feats are somehow canon while ignoring the absurdity of the comparisons.

Originally posted by Q99
Anyway, between Gero-in-android-body and Oceanus, especially Gero, the case is pretty solid. Pan's stronger than 10k.

The case is pretty solid that GT is full of PIS and Pan has no showings of power above 5000k. That's a definite.

That's some circular reasoning. Pan is weak therefore if she can hold Gero this version of Gero must be weak.

When there is absolutely no proof that he was weaker than before.

Pan was the only thing I liked about GT. She wins.

She only has no above 5000 showings because you just systematically excluded all the ones that are above 5000.

Originally posted by Pyron_Knight
That's some circular reasoning. Pan is weak therefore if she can hold Gero this version of Gero must be weak.

When there is absolutely no proof that he was weaker than before.

Pan was the only thing I liked about GT. She wins.

Originally posted by King Kandy
She only has no above 5000 showings because you just systematically excluded all the ones that are above 5000.

There is clear evidence that both Pan and Gero were much weaker than 5000. Holding that weak version of Gero down would not make that circular: it's fitting.

And, lol at your last comment. That sums up just about everyone's opinions.

Originally posted by King Kandy
She only has no above 5000 showings because you just systematically excluded all the ones that are above 5000.

Originally posted by dadudemon

It is one of the best examples of PIS from GT. It contradicts previous, canon, power showings, which is why it's PIS. And it's not backed up by other fights.

Oceanus is a sub 1000s power level, easily.

Oceanus deflected Goku's Kamehameha easily and required significant fighting by him to take down.

This is another case of "So-and-so's weak because if they were strong, it'd destroy my argument," rather than any in-show indication of PIS.

Here's a hint: If there's quite a few 'PIS' incidents that all support each other and make sense together and are the majority of the character's showings period, then it's not PIS.

There is clear evidence that both Pan and Gero were much weaker than 5000. Holding that weak version of Gero down would not make that circular: it's fitting.

No there isn't. The only evidence you're providing why Gero is weaker is he was held by Pan. The only evidence you're providing why Pan isn't strong enough to hold Gero is claiming he was weaker.

That's definition circular.

And, lol at your last comment. That sums up just about everyone's opinions.

Not really. Choosing to ignore non-isolated examples isn't what most people do, or what anyone else here is going. It's bad arguing.

Note how no-one else agrees with your dismissing of all the incidents.

Logic seems to indicate that Pan would win. So, yay.

Originally posted by Q99
Oceanus deflected Goku's Kamehameha easily and required significant fighting by him to take down.

And that K. did not blow up the earth or cause land destruction and the whole atmosphere to go black in comparison to the blast. It wasn't even on par with his K. blasts from when he was a kid in Dragonball.

So what's your point? That it was a PIS moment on Goku's part (really, CIS)? I agree with that.

Originally posted by Q99
This is another case of "So-and-so's weak because if they were strong, it'd destroy my argument," rather than any in-show indication of PIS.

Not at all and as we saw above, you are supporting my points, not creating a case for your own.

Originally posted by Q99
Here's a hint: If there's quite a few 'PIS' incidents that all support each other and make sense together and are the majority of the character's showings period, then it's not PIS.

You'd first have to make a case for that which you've not done.

Considering all of GT is PIS, you're also wrong.

Originally posted by Q99
No there isn't. The only evidence you're providing why Gero is weaker is he was held by Pan. The only evidence you're providing why Pan isn't strong enough to hold Gero is claiming he was weaker.

That's definition circular.

Yes there is. Gero is far weaker because his prior form was strong enough to easily destroy planets. On top of this, Pan's feats do not match up with anything over 5000. This is on top of a massive depowering of all characters for GT.

Originally posted by Q99
Not really. Choosing to ignore non-isolated examples isn't what most people do, or what anyone else here is going. It's bad arguing.

No, it is you choosing to ignore the simple facts of "weaker" throughout of GT. You use PIS moments to support your case while ignoring everything else that indicates she's far weaker than 10,000, much less the 150,000,000 minumum that you are implying.

Originally posted by Q99
Note how no-one else agrees with your dismissing of all the incidents.

Argumentum ad populum, eh? Just because you are all fans of Pan winning, does not mean you have a logical leg to stand on. The entire series of GT from the beginning is non-canon.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Yes there is. Gero is far weaker because his prior form was strong enough to easily destroy planets. On top of this, Pan's feats do not match up with anything over 5000. This is on top of a massive depowering of all characters for GT.

You realize nothing you just said proves Gero is weaker than before, right? It's like saying Piccolo didn't destroy a planet in GT so he's weaker than he was before. "A massive depowering of all characters for GT" it's a complaint, not an argument.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Logic seems to indicate that Pan would win. So, yay.

Originally posted by Bentley
You realize nothing you just said proves Gero is weaker than before, right? It's like saying Piccolo didn't destroy a planet in GT so he's weaker than he was before. "A massive depowering of all characters for GT" it's a complaint, not an argument.

Prove he has the same power-level as before and I'll concede.

Originally posted by dadudemon
Prove he has the same power-level as before and I'll concede.

Prove Piccolo didn't become weaker just because!

You realize there is no reason to assume he became weaker, he even exploded and we saw android pieces, where would he get a mechanical body that's actually weaker than it was and why? It makes no sense to assume otherwise.