Lloyd Irving vs Link

Don't be like that. By that logic Link cannot hurt Lloyd because he isn't so fast. Lloyd has a strength feat and I'm pretty sure he can hurt Link. Saying that Link's skin is as durable as a stone is just ridiculous.

And no, to say that Link is durable, when feats show he is durable, is logic. Without a strength feat of sufficient power, he cannot hurt Link. Cutting through the bone of the giant skeleton was nowhere close. A measly 9.5 MJ.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Except that's not like saying that at all. 😐 And Lloyd's possible ability to dodge is rendered useless by a Deku nut, regardless.

And no, to say that Link is durable, when feats show he is durable, is logic. Without a strength feat of sufficient power, he cannot hurt Link. Cutting through the bone of the giant skeleton was nowhere close. A measly 9.5 MJ.

And what a Deku Nut does?

Yes, that feat, let's forget the lightning one. I agree with TheAuraAngel now after thinking about it. It was just a reaction/speed feat, I still think he slashed the bolts though, but whatever. I'm pretty sure that skeleton was very durable, just look at its size. Lloyd cut through it like butter. And what the hell is '9.5 MJ'? I don't care about your mathematical hypothesis, only about statements from the game, mate.

Apparantly Deku Nuts stun stuff.

Okay, let me put it in language you'll get.

The maximum top end of strength that feat could show, is that all of his strength focused onto the edge of a blade can cut through bone requiring 9.5 megajoules to cut through.

Link has survived forces greater than that totally unharmed. Therefore, Lloyd, based on that feat, cannot harm Link.

Edit: and yeah, Neph is correct, they stun things.

Originally posted by TacDavey
I haven't played too many Metroid games. Do you have any videos?

That was just an example for the sake of a point I've now made again with Zelda evidence. I don't really need to continue with the Metroid thing.

Regardless, this is the crab example at 1:25, where simply touching the crabs deals damage. Similarly, these little beetles at 4:40 deal some good damage if touched. And then demon possessed power armor shots deal similar damage at 6:50.

That's the gameplay. In cutscenes, such as this at 1:35, demonstrate Samus not being scratched by a pirate scythe, despite them dealing gameplay damage. In a similar manner, the Pirate Commander at 1:08 does not harm Samus in cutscene, but suddenly hurts in gameplay.

1.) That is Twilight Princess Link.

I'm aware of this. It's an example.

2.) It does hurt him, if you hear, he yelps in pain.

Link yelps when he swings his sword or lifts something heavy. And, y'know, when he's surprised. Besides, since when has a little pain meant injury? Link was unharmed. Why don't you check your little heart count to see if it changed because of that attack?

3.) By your logic, that ax should have shattered on contact with Link's skin.

At what point did I ever say anything like that? Please don't put words in my mouth, it's annoying. Link was simply unharmed by an attack that harms him in gameplay. That sets a precedent for gameplay damage being unrelated to Link's durability.

No, cutscenes don't. They only do if you over analyze or try to math them.

What's wrong with mathing them? There's already evidence of Zelda games separating gameplay damage and actual harm.

So you don't think the enemies can hurt Link? So you ARE going with the assumption that the developers created completely worthless enemies that were never meant to actually cause Link and danger? The developers actually WANTED a character who was never in any actual danger at any point in his quest?

I'm going with average enemies have given no real indication that they can hurt Link, based on both cutscenes and representation of the hearts. Link may be in danger, but it would require the enemies to be suitably strong. Your garden variety little monsters don't have a case, seeing as how pathetic they are, but bosses and elite enemies have more of a chance.

You are going to need more than an unclear wording of a fairy to prove that Link simply takes a nap when you get a game over.

Again, please do not put words in my mouth. I have never once claimed that Link takes a nap, simply that he becomes too weary and exhausted to continue. If you take a look at the game over animation, it mostly involves Link stumbling around drunkenly before falling to his kness and then falling over completely. As opposed to, y'know, dying from wounds.

YouTube video

Oh, look, Link's got half a heart left. What does he do? Oh, just hold his knees and breath heavily, almost as if he's exhausted. Ooh, in the water, he suddenly gets too tired to swim. Of course, we've already established Ganondorf can hurt him, so that last one makes more sense, before Link is still breathing heavily before being hit.

Actually, when a character fights with a sword and shield, the logical assumption to make is that he uses the shield. Not that he carries it around cause he thinks it looks pretty.

Nah. Just weeds out the weak enemies from the actual threats.

Prove that. Prove that when Link grunts and slumps to the floor he isn't dead, but simply tired and taking a quick snooze. As if that, for some reason, means that you fail. That is one of the most ridiculous claims I think I've heard yet.

Stop strawmanning me. I never claimed that Link goes to sleep, so I really don't have to prove that. Regardless, I already did. Link gets exhausted and collapses, too tired to fight anymore.

http://www.zeldawiki.org/Chu_Jelly#cite_note-0

Oh, cool. That thing they use to make red potions is an effective cure for what? Exhaustion.

That's the canon statements? You mean the one quote from a fairy that can be taken either way? This is getting far beyond ridiculous at this point. So again, according to you, Link is not, at any point in his entire quest except Bonga Bonga and Ganon in any danger what so ever?

YouTube video

2:50. Yes, battle makes Link weary.

YouTube video

1:15. "The fairies of this fountain shall ease your weariness. When you have become fatigued from your battles, come here to be refreshed."

Emphasis mine. The evidence really starts adding up, doesn't it? And just gets less and less ambiguous, too.

It doesn't show that his skin is harder than diamond.

I never claimed it did. Just too durable for your average Zelda enemy. Maybe Lloyd, too, but I don't really care all that much.

Normally I don't like trying to presuppose a characters actions in a fight. He is still much faster and more agile than Link is, so he could probably get a fair distance away while his vision clears.

Deku Nuts don't blind. They stun. Lloyd isn't going to be doing a whole lot of moving after one explodes near him.

Believe me, I'm not having a picnic here either. I'm now having to contend with the argument that Link falls alseep on his game over screen.

It's really quite insulting that you see the need to reduce my arguments to something like that. Again, that's just putting words in my mouth so you can counter it.

I don't see the point of those big ass posts. It should be common knowledge by know that every single character in the history of video games is nerfed in all aspects during gameplay wether it be weapons, strength, defenses, agility.

In cutscenes Bayonetta's guns can pop the heads of fodder enemies with one shot, yet in gameplay it takes minutes of gunfire to kill one enemy. Akuma can destroy entire landmasses, yet he is unable to cause any damage to the backround during gameplay. In cutscenes it is made blatantly obvious that Dante is unphased by having a horde of fodder grunts stab him with thier weapons, yet they can kill him in gameplay. And sometimes the reverse is true. Shooting game characters can take hundreds and hundreds of bullets and can recover fine by hiding behind cover, yet one bullet during a cutscene will incapacitate or kill the character.

Point is all sense of logic goes out the window during gameplay portion. If something contradicts canon cutscenes, it shouldn't be considered.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Okay, let me put it in language you'll get.

The [b]maximum top end of strength that feat could show, is that all of his strength focused onto the edge of a blade can cut through bone requiring 9.5 megajoules to cut through.

Link has survived forces greater than that totally unharmed. Therefore, Lloyd, based on that feat, cannot harm Link.

Edit: and yeah, Neph is correct, they stun things. [/B]

Your word is not the word of God, you say it as if I would have to accept it. I don't give a damn about your math, only about statements, if there are any. Lloyd cut through that skeleton like butter with no apparent effort, end of story. As for Link, he isn't Superman, so stop pretending he can't be hurt by sword slashes.

Originally posted by GrieverSquall
Your word is not the word of God, you say it as if I would have to accept it. I don't give a damn about your math, only about statements, if there are any. Lloyd cut through that skeleton like butter with no apparent effort, end of story. As for Link, he isn't Superman, so stop pretending he can't be hurt by sword slashes.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
IE, you're ignoring evidence. I quantified the feats, you don't like the result, so you ignore them. I accept your concession.

I'm not ignoring anything. I just don't take your words as statements.

My words are just translations of the things that actually happen in the game.

Originally posted by TheGoldenSpy
Point is all sense of logic goes out the window during gameplay portion. If something contradicts canon cutscenes, it shouldn't be considered.

This. I agree with this.

There's an entire trope series devoted to this. See the links for more examples.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GameplayAndStorySegregation

Gameplay and story segregation. That's what this phenomenon is known as. For the relevant cutscene sections, see Cutscene Incompetence for characters weaker in cutscene than gameplay, and Cutscene Power To The Max for being stronger.

Of course, the cutscenes are canon and take precedence.

Clearly cutscenes matter more than gameplay. If something in gameplay contradicts with a cutscene, cutscene>gameplay.

Which is exactly why Link ish not a lightning timer. 🙂

Guh... Posts becoming too long again. Time for another summary post.

The Metroid points brought up before shows Samus taking a hit, yes, but there is no indication it does zero damage. When I say something has the possibility to hurt her, that doesn't mean I think it would be an instant KO. And of course they can't actually take away health in gameplay, (this applies to the point on Twilight Princess Link too), because that would be unfair, as it was a cut scene, and there was nothing you could do about it. Also notice in the Samus verses blade man one that Samus is dodging the attacks. Why would she dodge the attacks if there was NO threat of any damage to her suit?

When Link takes the hit from the big orc guy, he yelps in pain. He doesn't shout out his sword attack voice or a grunt. That was his damage voice. That attack hurt. But if Link is durable enough to have swords simply bounce off his skin, then he should have felt NO pain from that whatsoever.

I also find it hard to believe that the developers never intended Link to be in any real danger. I find it much more logical to assume that the developers made enemies who were actually threatening to Link. I find the evidence supporting Link's super durability flimsy at best. A sword getting knocked out of his hand and a bomb mask that DOES hurt him. You take these examples and make a radical jump to: "Link is invicible. No enemies can hurt him"

No. The more likely explanation is that the developers didn't bother mathing out the fact that these "feats" would technically make him invincible. Once again, Occam's Razor comes to the rescue. This is a far simpler explanation that adding in diamond skin, harmless enemies, and pointless shield use.

And even if I DO grant that Link simply gets exhausted and can't fight anymore (And I do not), that would still count as a victory for Lloyd. So either way Lloyd still wins the fight.

I find it much more logical to assume

Originally posted by TacDavey
Guh... Posts becoming too long again. Time for another summary post.

That tends to happen when I address every point in a post. Sorry about it, but that's just my style.

The Metroid points brought up before shows Samus taking a hit, yes, but there is no indication it does zero damage. When I say something has the possibility to hurt her, that doesn't mean I think it would be an instant KO. And of course they can't actually take away health in gameplay, (this applies to the point on Twilight Princess Link too), because that would be unfair, as it was a cut scene, and there was nothing you could do about it. Also notice in the Samus verses blade man one that Samus is dodging the attacks. Why would she dodge the attacks if there was NO threat of any damage to her suit?

"No indication it does no damage" is pretty much trying to prove a negative. It either indicates damage by showing it, or it does not. There were no scratches, scuffs, or even a flickering shield to indicate damage. You are simply assuming that damage was done because it looked like something that might, which is based on no evidence at all.

Samus dodges because she is not immovable, and it's still possible for her to be knocked around, as was shown. I don't know why you assume that everyone with durability would just allow themselves to be hit, but people do still flinch when, say, cotton balls are thrown at them. Does this mean cotton balls will hurt them?

When Link takes the hit from the big orc guy, he yelps in pain. He doesn't shout out his sword attack voice or a grunt. That was his damage voice. That attack hurt. But if Link is durable enough to have swords simply bounce off his skin, then he should have felt NO pain from that whatsoever.

Why do you assume that durability means immunity to pain? They're not necessarily related, as there are many things that can cause pain without being able to cause lethal damage. Tasers, certain venoms, and irritants can cause tons of pain without killing or injuring, if done right. I'm simply pointing out that the axe attack that also knocked a boar out cold did not hinder Link in the slightest, despite a more direct hit, and he showed no injuries or even any lingering pain after the attack.

I also find it hard to believe that the developers never intended Link to be in any real danger. I find it much more logical to assume that the developers made enemies who were actually threatening to Link. I find the evidence supporting Link's super durability flimsy at best. A sword getting knocked out of his hand and a bomb mask that DOES hurt him. You take these examples and make a radical jump to: "Link is invicible. No enemies can hurt him"

You finding it hard to believe does not have any bearing on what the dialogue, statements, and canon actually say. What you find more logical does not matter. I don't particularly care, and apparently neither did the devolopers, considering the amount of consistency in the exhaustion examples.

No. The more likely explanation is that the developers didn't bother mathing out the fact that these "feats" would technically make him invincible. Once again, Occam's Razor comes to the rescue. This is a far simpler explanation that adding in diamond skin, harmless enemies, and pointless shield use.

Exhaustion. All that really needs to be said. I have proven with cutscenes, dialogue, and in game statements that the heart system represents Link's energy levell and weariness. Combat simply tires him out, and the enemies do not have a case for damaging him. You using gameplay simply doesn't work.

And even if I DO grant that Link simply gets exhausted and can't fight anymore (And I do not), that would still count as a victory for Lloyd.

Ignoring Link's heart system as a representation of his tiredness is ignoring direct canon. That is all. You can dislike it all you want, but that just does not change the evidence.

So either way Lloyd still wins the fight.

Originally posted by TacDavey
You can't make that claim until all your arguments check out. And we're still debating them.

I do not recall you ever disputing the stunning properties of the Deku Nut, by the way. You haven't proven that Lloyd can avoid them or their effects, and until that happens, he's going to stunned and an easy kill for Link, as long as that argument checks out, right?

I'm going to avoid responding to the "exhaustion" points. I do not accept that Link simple gets tired out, but since in the end it no longer matters, I see no point in dragging out a long and painful debate if we don't need to.

If Lloyd knocks him out, which even according to your stance weaker enemies can do, that is still the same as killing him. That would still give the victory to Lloyd.

As for Deku Nuts, the range on those things is pretty limited. Besides, I see no reason to assume there is any actual paralyzing effect. As I see it, they act like flash bangs. They blind and disorientate the target, temporarily stunning them. I'm no expert on Deku Nuts, though, so if anyone can bring evidence from the game showing that they do, in fact, have a magic paralyzing effect, please do so. At any rate, with Lloyd's superior jumping and speed, it shouldn't be too tough to dodge them.

I'm going to avoid responding to the "exhaustion" points. I do not accept that Link simple gets tired out,

😐 This is not how a debate works. Scenario proved you wrong, now be a good boy and concede. I've personally proven Link's durability and Scenario's provided even more evidence supporting it. Lloyd is not physicly strong enough to harm Link.

Also, you're strawmanning by saying weaker enemies tire him out by attacking him, when exhaustion is the use of one's own effort. The implication in game is Link is more likely to work himself into collapsing than Lloyd be a threat. Unfortunately for Lloyd, there's no reason Link has to do so. There's no time limit, and he can sit down and eat a sandwich, or drink some milk (Strange how drinking milk "heals" him, seems more like a way to restore energy to me.), maybe sunbathe, while Lloyd tires himself out.

That's right, Lloyd isn't immune to getting tired! And where Link getting tired amounts to sitting down. Lloyd getting tired spells death. Not that this fight lasts that long. Link is a lightning timer, and even without that feat, has Deku nuts for a stun and a quick kill.

Originally posted by ScreamPaste
"I REJECT LINK'S FEATS!" dur

😐 This is not how a debate works. Scenario proved you wrong, now be a good boy and concede. I've personally proven Link's durability and Scenario's provided even more evidence supporting it. Lloyd is not physicly strong enough to harm Link.

Also, you're strawmanning by saying weaker enemies tire him out by attacking him, when exhaustion is the use of one's own effort. The implication in game is Link is more likely to work himself into collapsing than Lloyd be a threat. Unfortunately for Lloyd, there's no reason Link has to do so. There's no time limit, and he can sit down and eat a sandwich, or drink some milk (Strange how drinking milk "heals" him, seems more like a way to restore energy to me.), maybe sunbathe, while Lloyd tires himself out.

That's right, Lloyd isn't immune to getting tired! And where Link getting tired amounts to [b]sitting down. Lloyd getting tired spells death. Not that this fight lasts that long. Link is a lightning timer, and even without that feat, has Deku nuts for a stun and a quick kill. [/B]

Wrong. According to Scenerio, the enemies Link faces don't actual do mortal damage, but tire him out till he can no longer fight. If a skultulla has this possibility, then Lloyd does, and if Link can no longer fight, he looses.

I don't accept that Link tires himself out instead of dieing, and could continue to respond with more points, but since that is no longer necessary for Lloyd to win, I see no point in continuing this debate. That doesn't mean I'm just rejecting it without any reason, but simply I see no point in debating it further at this time.

Wrong. According to Scenerio,

Again, please do not put words in my mouth.

According to Scenario, you need to stop putting words in his mouth.

It's been proven time and time again the minor enemies in Zelda are not a threat to Link, who wades through legions of them consistency, and has shown great durability in cutscenes and canon instances which have been listed. You seem to cling to a gameplay mechanic as though it'll save you, and it's the last scrap of your argument.

Scenario effectively obliterated even that last thing you clung to. Even in gameplay, Link does not take damage.

So, you think that all Zelda enemies have some sort of touch power which tires you out? How do you get tired? Exertion. The gameplay explanation for the player failing is Link gets tired. Hell, Scenario spelled it out for you.

So, you have nothing supporting that minor enemies can hurt Link, nothing to support Lloyd can hurt Link, and nothing pointing to Lloyd as a winner, and yet continue to claim Lloyd wins based on nothing.

The LLLC will take it's win and make a footnote of your stubbornness. 😬

YouTube video

1:40

Deku Nuts can give the appearance of teleportation. Shiek effectively stuns Link and then just walks away. That's why the shiekah are considered the ninja of Legend of Zelda.

YouTube video

5:20, same thing, for consistency.