Lloyd Irving vs Link

Originally posted by Super Marie 64
[b]How is this relevant to the thread at all?

And I can't imagine that video any good for anyone but sexually starved teenage boys, whose blood will rally at first sight of (barely) explicit content.

I am of course all ears to hear how that contribute in any way to the thread. The only purpose I can imagine it'll serve, is fire up various fans of various characters. [/B]

Keep calm, it was supposed to be a joke to lighten the "Teenagers" moods in here.

and who said it had to be completely relevant? Both vids contain at least one character from the thread, so it doesn't matter.

In other words, an attempt to digress the topic of discussion. Moods doesn't have to be "lightened" here, since there's nothing more than a traditional debate being held.

Your link serve a greater purpose in the Off-Topic thread, where things of its kind belong. I can't imagine it overly challenging to try stick to the topic when in a versus thread. The threads are made to discuss the outcome of a battle between these two characters, not to spread irrelevant videos and comments on characters involved in it. That's what respect threads and off-topic threads are made for.

It's not a matter of having lost my calm or anything of the sort. It's a matter of respecting the thread you chose to post in. Respect the participants by not making attempts to distract peoples attention away from an ongoing discussion with nonsense that will in no way contribute to the debate.

Lighten up and let debaters debate in peace. Post your crap in more proper threads for videos of its low calibur.

It was actually more for Sreampaste than anyone else, but meh! point taken.

Didn't particularly enjoy the first vid, or watch the second. mmm I'm perfectly calm, and not a teenager. 😛 Just pointing out the consistent flaws in Tac's argument. He's effectively being selective about what is and is not a feat and using gameplay to downplay Link.

Meh, I'll continue to point out holes in his argument until he recognises the feats presented and accepts the inevitable. BUT FOR NOW. CONCERT.

Originally posted by TacDavey
1. Skultullas are tiny spiders. Stallchildren are flimsy little skeletons. Deku scrubs shoot tiny seeds, and not fast either. Poes hit you with lanterns that break when they fall to the ground.

I don't really see how that proves that they're a threat to Link. Doing gameplay damage is in no way indicative as to how powerful something really is. To give an example:

Samus Aran can be damaged by a tiny little crab about the size of your hand. It only deals about 1 or 2 points, but it is perfectly capable of killing her. And hey, you know what does the same amount of damage as this little crab? An assault rifle carried by a demon-possessed, power armor wearing, Galactic Federation Space Marine.

By your logic and use of gameplay, a crab is just as threatening as a demonic space marine.

In the same way, saying that something that is supposed to be a beginning enemy would be a threat to Link is just ridiculous. Skulltulas are huge, bigger than Link, actually, so I don't know where you were going with that one. Stalchildren are still magical skeletons that only really fought child Link, and they have some claws. Deku Scrubs shoot exploding nuts, and Poes hit you with a lantern that carries their essence, which is on fire.

If I could remember their exact damae, I could probably tell you that most of them would be similar to, say, a sword wielding lizardman or a bomb's explosion.

Another thing to point out. A wooden shield takes blows that hurt Link.

A Deku Shield is hardly normal wood. Just like a Deku nut is hardly a normal nut, or a Deku stick dealing more damage than a sword.

It's extremely foolish to assume that EVERY SINGLE enemy in Hyrule, even the OBVIOUSLY weak ones, are super super super strong because they can hurt Link. Do I really need to pull Occam's Razor out again?

2. They can hurt Link. He needs to defend himself against them. They pose a threat.

Try Occam's Razor on the example above. Crab = Demon-possessed Space Marine as both are exactly as threatening. The creatures you gave don't need to be super strong, because they are in no way a real threat to Link. If all you have to say that they're a threat is gameplay damage, you're not getting far. So far, they're only a threat because you say so, and even if they are, they are weak just because you say so.

Originally posted by Super Marie 64
[b]His strength is inconsistent, which apply Albert Einstein's concept of us not knowing what's actually true and not. You're right though, it's possible to create characters and events that defy mathematics, but that doesn't mean there aren't numbers. There were numbers, you just chose to direct the argument elsewhere. The weight was 2 pounds, and the rock was 45 ton. The character is logically flawed, that doesn't change the numbers. He'll still have a muscle mass, and a display of power.

Don't blame an idiotic design flaw in a character on the numbers he fail to work with. The numbers are still there, he just can't manage them. My statement stands, that everything that has a structure can be calculated.

In addition, you fail to comprehend that our world does not necessarily equal truth. You can't calculate magic according to our science, because it doesn't exist. It does, however, exist in this world and can therefore in that world be calculable. If you lack the numbers to do so, though, that's a different problem. Doesn't mean they aren't there.

So allow me to explain what I mean by "give me the numbers"
There are numbers on everything. Just because we don't know them, doesn't mean they aren't there. Just because the creator of some fictional piece doesn't have any numbers, doesn't mean they aren't there in that piece.
"Give me the numbers" is calling out the fact that if it exist, it consist of something. Something means it has either molecules or any type of variety to it. It is, to its core, built.

You can argue it all you want, just because it's a piece of your imagination or fiction, doesn't mean there aren't numbers. Just that you don't know them.

You make the mistake of assuming the numbers we use in our universe are absolute. If you want to calculate magic, Heavens know you might have to use yourself of a new type of substance.
"In order to calculate the damage output of this magic missile, we need to find the sum for what two Magic and three Arcane divided by four Divinity is."

Let go of your obsession in reality. Fiction ain't reality, ergo we might need more than our feeble laws of physics to figure some things out. [/B]

Okay, then you admit that fantasy doesn't follow our laws. So a ball that breaks a stone block doesn't actually have to weight 12 tons, maybe it's just a magic ball that can break a stone block.

My character example was obviously flawed, but it was an extreme case to make a point. The thing is, characters don't have to be consistent, and they don't have to be logical. They can be whatever, just like my character.

Originally posted by The Scenario
I don't really see how that proves that they're a threat to Link. Doing gameplay damage is in no way indicative as to how powerful something really is. To give an example:

Samus Aran can be damaged by a tiny little crab about the size of your hand. It only deals about 1 or 2 points, but it is perfectly capable of killing her. And hey, you know what does the same amount of damage as this little crab? An assault rifle carried by a demon-possessed, power armor wearing, Galactic Federation Space Marine.

By your logic and use of gameplay, a crab is just as threatening as a demonic space marine.

No, you misunderstand. The fact that the crab is just as damaging as a space marine is gameplay mechanics, but the fact still remains that the crab is damaging. I has the ability to hurt her, the fact that it takes little on screen pellets instead of scratching or breaking her suit is the gameplay mechanics. Not the fact that it can hurt her.

Originally posted by The Scenario
In the same way, saying that something that is supposed to be a beginning enemy would be a threat to Link is just ridiculous. Skulltulas are huge, bigger than Link, actually, so I don't know where you were going with that one. Stalchildren are still magical skeletons that only really fought child Link, and they have some claws. Deku Scrubs shoot exploding nuts, and Poes hit you with a lantern that carries their essence, which is on fire.

If I could remember their exact damae, I could probably tell you that most of them would be similar to, say, a sword wielding lizardman or a bomb's explosion.

Stalchildren have claws, sure, but the claws should just bounce off Link, right? Deku scrubs nuts don't explode ( 😆 ). They just crumble. A poes Lantern still breaks from a short drop to the ground.

The point is, none of those things should be able to hurt Link by you and screams logic, but they can if given the opportunity. That's why Link needs a shield.

Originally posted by The Scenario
A Deku Shield is hardly normal wood. Just like a Deku nut is hardly a normal nut, or a Deku stick dealing more damage than a sword.

Yet breaking when hitting something remotely hard. I'm sure the Deku shield is stronger than normal wood, but it isn't as strong as you all are claiming it should be. A deku stick snaps easily when swung at anything.

Originally posted by The Scenario
Try Occam's Razor on the example above. Crab = Demon-possessed Space Marine as both are exactly as threatening. The creatures you gave don't need to be super strong, because they are in no way a real threat to Link. If all you have to say that they're a threat is gameplay damage, you're not getting far. So far, they're only a threat because you say so, and even if they are, they are weak just because you say so.

They have the ability to hurt Link. How many times do I have to say this? The fact that their attacks take hearts instead of inflicting actual, physical damage is the gameplay aspect of it, NOT THE FACT THAT THEY HAVE THE ABILITY TO HURT LINK.

Now, here's the two options for Occam's Razor again.

1. Every enemy you ever meet in Zelda (including the obviously weak ones) is super super super strong, yet bounce weakly off a shield made out of the same stuff that snaps the instant it comes into contact with anything remotely hard. This is because, for some reason, the wood, when put into shield form, actually becomes much harder than diamond. This, however, is never specified in the game. Also, a poes lantern is super hard, but only when he's holding it. Once the body part is destroyed, the lantern turns back into a normal glass lantern and shatters from a short fall. This, again, is never specified in the game.

or

2. The enemies and the wood are as strong as they each appear. The fact that Link gets a sword knocked out of his hand, or survives a fall that should normal hurt him, is a result of the fact that in fantasy, not everything is bound by the laws of our world. A character is perfectly able to take things like that and still get cut with a normal weapon. (And stuff like that happens all the time in fantasy. There have been several good examples in previous posts.)

Occam's Razor will pick the second one. Every time.

The problem with your arguments is that it makes far too many assumptions about the game that are not, in any way, suggested. You have to go on what the game gives you. Not what you make up for yourselves.

Hmmmmm......

Why don't we get back to the main topic of the thread?

Lloyd still loses to Link because of inferior strength feats and less helpful items. Link will have a tough time getting a hit on Lloyd due to his superior speed, but he will get a hit eventually. Deku Nuts FTW

As for gameplay damage....If the enemies in a game can't possible hurt you, where's the challenge? It doesn't mean that they're necessarily super strong or super weak. We need feats for that, and hurting the PC is a feat I won't buy unless it's cutscene or required gameplay or something similar to that nature.

So, back to the main topic: Find us better strength feats for Lloyd or this thread is done.

666th reply. evillaugh

Originally posted by TacDavey
Okay, then you admit that fantasy doesn't follow our laws. So a ball that breaks a stone block doesn't actually have to weight 12 tons, maybe it's just a magic ball that can break a stone block.

My character example was obviously flawed, but it was an extreme case to make a point. The thing is, characters don't have to be consistent, and they don't have to be logical. They can be whatever, just like my character.

Our laws are shit. Just because it's another world, doesn't mean there aren't numbers. We just lack the ability to calculate some of it. There are deviations of logic if you want there to be, that we'll never get away from. A character in a roleplay I was part of had the power to manipulate the numbers of the universe, so there are extreme examples out there.

That doesn't change my point one bit, though. If it has a structure, it has numbers. You can pull as many extreme examples out of your hat as you like, you and me both know that in most of the cases numbers can be applied.

It's only those times that are made to not work that's the exception. I could make up a character that exist because he doesn't, if you get my point. Still, the argument ain't about the characters, but about the world around them.

Originally posted by TacDavey
No, you misunderstand. The fact that the crab is just as damaging as a space marine is gameplay mechanics, but the fact still remains that the crab is damaging. I has the ability to hurt her, the fact that it takes little on screen pellets instead of scratching or breaking her suit is the gameplay mechanics. Not the fact that it can hurt her.

I see, but you're still assuming that gameplay damage means they actually can hurt a given character. In cutscenes, Samus tanks blades, gets thrown into walls, or stands next to exploding radioactive robots, all without "scratching or breaking her suit," yet you'd claim a little crab that has nothing but gameplay damage going for it can damage the suit.

Similarly, the punishment Link takes in cutscene without damage would render him immune to those petty monster's attacks. Yet gameplay is a different story.

Stalchildren have claws, sure, but the claws should just bounce off Link, right? Deku scrubs nuts don't explode ( 😆 ). They just crumble. A poes Lantern still breaks from a short drop to the ground.

The point is, none of those things should be able to hurt Link by you and screams logic, but they can if given the opportunity. That's why Link needs a shield.

Which is still what I'm saying: the fact that they can damage him in gameplay does not translate to them actually being able to damage him. In order for them to damage Link, they would have to be quite strong. Until we have strength feats for the stalchildren, they very well might just bounce off of Link, or they might be super strong and have necromantically charged monomolecular claws. Fact is, gameplay damage means nothing for this.

Yet breaking when hitting something remotely hard. I'm sure the Deku shield is stronger than normal wood, but it isn't as strong as you all are claiming it should be. A deku stick snaps easily when swung at anything.

Yeah, if we want to keep consistency, if Link's enemies are strong enough to hurt him, they must be durable enough to take hits from him, right? Between Link's strength and the opponent's toughness, the Deku stick just snaps. It's just a stick harvested from one of those strong monsters Link fights, but the Deku Shield is a bit larger and designed for combat, no surprise it's stronger.

On the other side, Link's just too durable for the enemies to be a threat, since they can't even pierce the deku shield. The stick is just a stick, and Link's strikes break it.

They have the ability to hurt Link. How many times do I have to say this? The fact that their attacks take hearts instead of inflicting actual, physical damage is the gameplay aspect of it, NOT THE FACT THAT THEY HAVE THE ABILITY TO HURT LINK.

Again, that's not indicated. All you have is gameplay damage, while in cutscenes Link tends not to be hurt. You really can't prove that the enemies can hurt Link, if you're going to be selective about how the heart system works.

Now, here's the two options for Occam's Razor again.

1. Every enemy you ever meet in Zelda (including the obviously weak ones) is super super super strong, yet bounce weakly off a shield made out of the same stuff that snaps the instant it comes into contact with anything remotely hard. This is because, for some reason, the wood, when put into shield form, actually becomes much harder than diamond. This, however, is never specified in the game. Also, a poes lantern is super hard, but only when he's holding it. Once the body part is destroyed, the lantern turns back into a normal glass lantern and shatters from a short fall. This, again, is never specified in the game.

or

2. The enemies and the wood are as strong as they each appear. The fact that Link gets a sword knocked out of his hand, or survives a fall that should normal hurt him, is a result of the fact that in fantasy, not everything is bound by the laws of our world. A character is perfectly able to take things like that and still get cut with a normal weapon. (And stuff like that happens all the time in fantasy. There have been several good examples in previous posts.)

Occam's Razor will pick the second one. Every time.

Then again, there's the other option: the enemies are as weak as they appear, and Link is not threatened by them. The game is meant to be at least slightly challenging, so enemies are able to cause some heart damage, which based on game dialogue actually represents Link getting tired, not damages (for instance, fairies cure "exhaustion," not wounds.) The mechanics are not indicative of Link getting hurt or being threatened by enemies, just as cutscenes show him being far too durable for them to reliably harm.

The problem with your arguments is that it makes far too many assumptions about the game that are not, in any way, suggested. You have to go on what the game gives you. Not what you make up for yourselves.

Yours have a similar problem with assuming that enemies' gameplay damage means actual harm to Link. If you want to go by canon, Link is never harmed by the end of the game anyway, and never shows any actual wounds to his person. Potions and fairies make referances to vitality and tiring, never injuries or wounds, and nothing is ever said about Link being harmed.

By canon, he never gets hurt.

And yeah, Link wins, that's all that really needs to be said here.

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Hmmmmm......

Why don't we get back to the main topic of the thread?

Lloyd still loses to Link because of inferior strength feats and less helpful items. Link will have a tough time getting a hit on Lloyd due to his superior speed, but he will get a hit eventually. Deku Nuts FTW

As for gameplay damage....If the enemies in a game can't possible hurt you, where's the challenge? It doesn't mean that they're necessarily super strong or super weak. We need feats for that, and hurting the PC is a feat I won't buy unless it's cutscene or required gameplay or something similar to that nature.

So, back to the main topic: Find us better strength feats for Lloyd or this thread is done.

666th reply. evillaugh

Lloyd doesn't need strength feats. If a Skultulla can hurt Link then Lloyd can. I've already admitted that Link has higher strength, but that doesn't give him the fight. Nor do Deku Nuts. Lloyd still has much higher speed and agility. And it might be debatable that he can fly (He does it at the end). Plus, he defeated Kratos, which is an amazing feat in itself.

Originally posted by Super Marie 64
[b]Our laws are shit. Just because it's another world, doesn't mean there aren't numbers. We just lack the ability to calculate some of it. There are deviations of logic if you want there to be, that we'll never get away from. A character in a roleplay I was part of had the power to manipulate the numbers of the universe, so there are extreme examples out there.

That doesn't change my point one bit, though. If it has a structure, it has numbers. You can pull as many extreme examples out of your hat as you like, you and me both know that in most of the cases numbers can be applied.

It's only those times that are made to not work that's the exception. I could make up a character that exist because he doesn't, if you get my point. Still, the argument ain't about the characters, but about the world around them. [/B]

The point is the character is what you make them. It doesn't have to have a structure if you don't want it to. The person creating the fantasy is in complete and total control of the laws and how everything works. You cannot tell ME how MY fantasy works.

Originally posted by The Scenario
I see, but you're still assuming that gameplay damage means they actually can hurt a given character. In cutscenes, Samus tanks blades, gets thrown into walls, or stands next to exploding radioactive robots, all without "scratching or breaking her suit," yet you'd claim a little crab that has nothing but gameplay damage going for it can damage the suit.

Similarly, the punishment Link takes in cutscene without damage would render him immune to those petty monster's attacks. Yet gameplay is a different story.

The fact that the monsters can do heart damage means they have the potential to hurt Link. Not that it's canon that they ever do, but they can. The crab (I don't know what enemy you're talking about) has the potential of damaging the suit. It isn't outside of it's physical abilities.

Link has to fight because he has to survive. If he doesn't fight the Stalfos they would kill him. It's true that it's no fun having a game with an invincible character. That's why the Zelda developers DIDN'T make a game about an invincible character.

Originally posted by The Scenario
Which is still what I'm saying: the fact that they can damage him in gameplay does not translate to them actually being able to damage him. In order for them to damage Link, they would have to be quite strong. Until we have strength feats for the stalchildren, they very well might just bounce off of Link, or they might be super strong and have necromantically charged monomolecular claws. Fact is, gameplay damage means nothing for this.

You're right. Gameplay mechanics don't mean much. But the fact that Stalfos can hurt Link isn't a gameplay mechanic. The gameplay mechanic is that it takes hearts instead of blood. You need to be able to tell the difference here.

Originally posted by The Scenario
Yeah, if we want to keep consistency, if Link's enemies are strong enough to hurt him, they must be durable enough to take hits from him, right? Between Link's strength and the opponent's toughness, the Deku stick just snaps. It's just a stick harvested from one of those strong monsters Link fights, but the Deku Shield is a bit larger and designed for combat, no surprise it's stronger.

No, the Deku stick snaps if you hit it against a rock. Oh, and by the way, the rock doesn't break. So I guess all the rocks in Zelda has super super durability too, right?

I might also point out that a deku stick snaps before Link get's super strength.

Also, the shield is stronger than a stick, but not by the amount you are talking about.

Originally posted by The Scenario
On the other side, Link's just too durable for the enemies to be a threat, since they can't even pierce the deku shield. The stick is just a stick, and Link's strikes break it.

They can't pierce the Deku Shield, but they can hurt Link.

Link breaks the sticks as a child and without super strength.

Originally posted by The Scenario
Again, that's not indicated. All you have is gameplay damage, while in cutscenes Link tends not to be hurt. You really can't prove that the enemies can hurt Link, if you're going to be selective about how the heart system works.

It isn't just the gameplay damage. Why do you think Link uses a shield if his skin is tougher than metal and the enemies can't hurt him anyway? Because they CAN hurt him. The gameplay damage shows that the enemies have a potential to hurt Link. The fact that the damage is translated into hearts is the gameplay aspect of it. Not the fact that they can damage him. You guys seem to be confused as to what gameplay mechanics are.

Originally posted by The Scenario
Then again, there's the other option: the enemies are as weak as they appear, and Link is not threatened by them. The game is meant to be at least slightly challenging, so enemies are able to cause some heart damage, which based on game dialogue actually represents Link getting tired, not damages (for instance, fairies cure "exhaustion," not wounds.) The mechanics are not indicative of Link getting hurt or being threatened by enemies, just as cutscenes show him being far too durable for them to reliably harm.

Are you really hiding behind the wording of a fairy? If Link looses all his hearts, he DIES. He does not fall ASLEEP.

Originally posted by The Scenario
Yours have a similar problem with assuming that enemies' gameplay damage means actual harm to Link. If you want to go by canon, Link is never harmed by the end of the game anyway, and never shows any actual wounds to his person. Potions and fairies make referances to vitality and tiring, never injuries or wounds, and nothing is ever said about Link being harmed.

Okay, so I assume that when an enemy slashes Link and he looses health, that means he is harmed. And THAT is a poor assumption? Really? I don't think that's a far leap at all. Here's a poor assumption:

When an enemy slashes Link and he looses health, he isn't actually loosing health. The developers actually purposely created a completely invincible character. All the enemies they created don't pose any harm to Link at all, and where never meant to. Link was never in any danger at any point in his journey, except at the end. Also, he uses a shield for no reason. They only threw in hearts to make the game interesting.

Now tell me which of those two "assumptions" is the less logical one.

Originally posted by The Scenario
By canon, he never gets hurt.

Irrelevant. By Canon neither does Lloyd. That doesn't mean his enemies CAN'T hurt him.

Originally posted by The Scenario
And yeah, Link wins, that's all that really needs to be said here.

You can't make that claim until all your arguments check out. And we're still debating them.

Originally posted by TacDavey
The point is the character is what you make them. It doesn't have to have a structure if you don't want it to. The person creating the fantasy is in complete and total control of the laws and how everything works. You cannot tell ME how MY fantasy works.

No, but I can tell you it has numbers.

As much as I hate to paint myself as a Link basher I have to agree with Tacdavey on this one. Suggesting that Link can't be harmed at all is absurd. He can be hurt by far lesser things than Lloyd in game. His durability is (I assume) high enough so that Lloyd will have to seriously struggle to cause alot of damage, but Link not even feeling it? Nuh uh.

Originally posted by TacDavey
The fact that the monsters can do heart damage means they have the potential to hurt Link. Not that it's canon that they ever do, but they can. The crab (I don't know what enemy you're talking about) has the potential of damaging the suit. It isn't outside of it's physical abilities.

Now, when you make the argument that the Tallon Crab (Metroid Prime) can harm Samus, you're essentially saying that the crab (which is, incidentally, smaller than your hand) is stronger than a Space Pirate scythe (no damage in cutscenes), being thrown into a wall (also no damage) or the various explosions Samus faces regularly, again with no damage.

That is the part I have issue with. Actually, forget the crab, there's a better example. I brought up a space pirate scythe being completely unable to damage Samus in cutscene. This same pirate scythe, in gameplay, can suddenly do damage. How would you explain this anomaly? The same thing is simultaneously able and unable to cause damage, with the one unable being in cutscene.

Just like this, actually:
YouTube video

0:20. Same exact thing. King Bulblin's axe knocks Link off his feet in cutscene, with no visible damage, yet in gameplay that same attack deals a whopping three hearts. What can you even say about that? There was evidence, right there, of Link being unharmed by a powerful attack. Hell, it knocked the boar out cold, but does nothing to Link. Yet when you get to gameplay, suddenly these attacks hurt.

What will you follow, cutscenes or gameplay?

Link has to fight because he has to survive. If he doesn't fight the Stalfos they would kill him. It's true that it's no fun having a game with an invincible character. That's why the Zelda developers DIDN'T make a game about an invincible character.

'k, I'm going to need some evidence that Link's fighting to survive. You yourself say the enemies are weak, so it's seems more like they're just speedbumps for Link while he takes out the trash. Yeah, they didn't make Link invincible, but cutscene evidence proves that he's too durable for these little monsters to hurt.

You're right. Gameplay mechanics don't mean much. But the fact that Stalfos can hurt Link isn't a gameplay mechanic. The gameplay mechanic is that it takes hearts instead of blood. You need to be able to tell the difference here.

No, the Deku stick snaps if you hit it against a rock. Oh, and by the way, the rock doesn't break. So I guess all the rocks in Zelda has super super durability too, right?

I might also point out that a deku stick snaps before Link get's super strength.

Also, the shield is stronger than a stick, but not by the amount you are talking about.

They can't pierce the Deku Shield, but they can hurt Link.

Link breaks the sticks as a child and without super strength.

I don't think you're understanding what I'm saying here. I don't actually think these enemies are strong at all, the super strong thing is just to prove a point. Namely, that evidence still shows that Link is too durable for the enemies as they are shown to hurt. They can't hurt him, and if they could they'd be super strong. Cutscenes show Link as being too durable for them, and gameplay damage means nothing.

It isn't just the gameplay damage. Why do you think Link uses a shield if his skin is tougher than metal and the enemies can't hurt him anyway? Because they CAN hurt him. The gameplay damage shows that the enemies have a potential to hurt Link. The fact that the damage is translated into hearts is the gameplay aspect of it. Not the fact that they can damage him. You guys seem to be confused as to what gameplay mechanics are.

The thing now is that you're assuming Link blocks attacks. Link only gets the shield because others encourage him to, really. Again, gameplay. The gameplay damage is still outright stated to be Link getting weary as he fights, it doesn't even have to be a result of getting hit. Link could just use the shield so he can balance out the sword, and once you get the Biggoron Sword, you don't even need the shield.

Are you really hiding behind the wording of a fairy? If Link looses all his hearts, he DIES. He does not fall ASLEEP.

Please, hiding? I'm just using the mechanics as they are described in the game itself. The hearts are stated to represent Link's energy level, and how exhausting combat is. If Link loses all the hearts, he becomes too weary to fight anyone. Fairies and potions only restore Link's strength to keep fighting, nothing else.

Okay, so I assume that when an enemy slashes Link and he looses health, that means he is harmed. And THAT is a poor assumption? Really? I don't think that's a far leap at all. Here's a poor assumption:

When an enemy slashes Link and he looses health, he isn't actually loosing health. The developers actually purposely created a completely invincible character. All the enemies they created don't pose any harm to Link at all, and where never meant to. Link was never in any danger at any point in his journey, except at the end. Also, he uses a shield for no reason. They only threw in hearts to make the game interesting.

Hmm. I suppose that is a poor assumption. Good thing I'm not the one making it, then, eh? Link isn't invincible, he's just beyond your average Zelda enemy's ability to meaningfully hurt. Ganondorf can demonstratably hurt him and affect him, as could Bongo Bongo, in cutscene. The developers simply let the enemies serve to tire Link out as he fights, so that he has to rest occasionally. That's the canon statements.

Irrelevant. By Canon neither does Lloyd. That doesn't mean his enemies CAN'T hurt him.

And I'm sure there's evidence to such. As I said, certain beings have been shown to be able to hurt or otherwise affect Link for a little while, but cutscene evidence definitively shows Link to be too tough for the average enemy.

You can't make that claim until all your arguments check out. And we're still debating them.

I thought we were just debating Link's ability to be hurt by his own enemies, but okay. What can Lloyd even do about a Deku Nut? If he doesn't know what it is, he doesn't really have a chance to avoid the effect.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Lloyd doesn't need strength feats.

Well, cutting through that giant skeleton's arm (how it was called?) holding a sword that is bigger than Lloyd himself it's a pretty good strength feat, if you ask me. That, and the fact that Lloyd didn't seemed to exert himself much to do so. Plus, yes, he defeated Kratos and Kratos is > Volt, right Tac?

Man... I don't even know where to start... bear with me, this is gonna take awhile. It gone on 20+ pages w/o me due to lack of internet 🙁

1.) Link still isn't a lightning timer SP, you me, and many others have debated this. There's just too much evidence that says other wise. Why do u still think that he is? What were the other enemies he fought in OoT that used lightning? You said you thought of like 2 or 3 other incidents.

2.) 6-12 tons lightning bolts.... wtf? 😐 Congrats on actually weighing lightning, but there's just too many variables that u estimated on. The floor doesn't really bother me as much as the attacks itself. Again, like Aura asked before, how do u weigh light? The attack does indicate it has mass though, I agree with you on that, but I doubt it's that much. The reason that leads me to believe it does though is that the attack actually speeds up as Link and Gannondorf take turns knocking it back at each other. Something that speeds up as you increase the force behind it can't happen without mass, right?

3.) The feat I had Aura post. When I thought about it, it actually says more than what was shown, I just couldn't explain until now. Link, as a child, can tank huge volcanic boulders with the Hylian shield, and the impact is so hard that they actually shatter. Its more of a feat for his shield than it is for Link, even though the weight of the boulder would still be applied to his back and legs, but meh. If you want to math something, try that one. It'll hold up better in a thread than your 6-12 ton lightning😛

Anyway, the connection I made with that feat is with the enemy in OoT that can eat your shield. I can't remember it's name, but yeah... Link can survive this. The only problem is that I'm not really sure how it does it. I can't remember if it has teeth, or if it'd just be it's stomach acid dissolving the shield, but either way, Link can survive it when the Hylian shield can't. Link would actually have the Mirror Shield in this fight, which is better than the Hylian.

4.)The whole thing with the ice arrows. I still don't agree with you using the WW feat with OoT Link SP. I'm pretty sure Guerudo magic and Great Fairy magic are different in terms of power. I don't really have anything to back that up, its never really stated in the games, but it isn't just a baseless claim. After all Link gets the silver arrows from a Great Fairy, and they were used to finally kill Gannon.

5.) Now with the whole lifting strength/breaking rocks thing... I know you already conceded GS, so don't bother replying to it, but I find it funny that NemeBro came in 20+ pages into the debate and shattered your argument with one post. 😆
It just makes me sad that I couldn't reply until now, or I would've brought up Link shattering steel when it started. I'm surprised the LLLC didn't do it either... I expect better from u. I'd also like to add that weaker 2D incarnations of OoT Link actually can shatter rock with their sword once they get the lvl 2 (I think) power bracelet. The only reason I believe it didn't happen in OoT is simply because of gameplay mechanics. You can't even break boxes with your sword in OoT, although it's obvious he has the power to do so.

6.) The whole durability issue. Tac does actually have a point with other enemies actually do pose a threat to Link because they can hurt him. I highly doubt that every single enemy in OoT has super strength, it's kind of silly to think that, or that a sword would just break/bounce off his skin, but it's irrelevant. Link's taken so much shit throughout the game that it's gonna take someone with quite a bit of power to hurt him to where it would give them an advantage. Off the top of my head, Link been electrocuted, set on fire, walked in hot fire/magma as a child in Dodongo's Cavern, shot, stabbed, smacked around by Gorons, huge Volcanic boulders, fell from ridiculous heights (mountains, the moon), etc, etc, etc (it's really a miracle that he's still alive), but he's still able to get back up and keep fighting. Point is Link is still alive, he's tanked everything that he's been hit with. Lloyd, using his speed, could lets just say (just a random guess) hit him about 100 times in under a minute. Without a adequate strength feat from Lloyd, it would be nothing compared to what Link has survived before. All it would do is cause Link to get back up, more pissed than he was before it happened.

7.)

Originally posted by Super Marie 64
[b]Mathematics can be applied to everything. It is the basis on which everything stand. All you have to do to get going, is know the numbers. [/B]

Originally posted by Super Marie 64
[b]Even magic is calculable, just give me the numbers. [/B]

Originally posted by NemeBro
Well, or, he could have absorbed the majority of the blast into his urethra before expelling it to the 2434535345th dimension where it proceeded to take the form of a horny goblin named Jeffrey.

math that 😄

edit: Also, whats wrong with Inuyasha? That guys a beast, it's a pretty good series, despite the fanbase is mostly girls. I personally think he could solo just about anyone in this forum w/o any problems except Kratos.

and since when was Sonic owed by a bullet? 😐

Originally posted by linkownsyousobs
math that 😄

Absolutely, sweetness. Just give me the numbers 😉

Originally posted by Super Marie 64
[b]Absolutely, sweetness. Just give me the numbers 😉 [/B]

Originally posted by TheAuraAngel
Magic tends not to come with those. 😐

😐

You could probably start with the energy of a nuclear bomb and multiply that by a thousand to get a figure for the amount of energy in a supernova. Then you could just assume that a wormhole would take 10x more energy than a black hole or something.

I'm just trying to help. 'cause I kind of want to see the math for that stuff.

Originally posted by linkownsyousobs
Now with the whole lifting strength/breaking rocks thing... I know you already conceded GS, so don't bother replying to it, but I find it funny that NemeBro came in 20+ pages into the debate and shattered your argument with one post.

No. I conceded the point because TheScenario posted evidence for Link's strength, and that is what I needed.

Anyway, the connection I made with that feat is with the enemy in OoT that can eat your shield. I can't remember it's name, but yeah... Link can survive this. The only problem is that I'm not really sure how it does it. I can't remember if it has teeth, or if it'd just be it's stomach acid dissolving the shield, but either way, Link can survive it when the Hylian shield can't. Link would actually have the Mirror Shield in this fight, which is better than the Hylian.

That'd be the Like Like.