Originally posted by Lord_Talron
yea, if it had been an army base, frank wouldve been screwed.
Steve Rogers doesn't have the SSS. Daredevil has a hard enough time with Punisher and Steve without SSS isn't better than DD. Another important point is that non of the versions of Punisher that DD faced where as good as Punisher is now.
If you read Punisher comics he frequently uses the envinronment to his advantage and hes a dirtier fighter than Cap.
Its really not that complicated.
Complicated? You're right... It certainly isn't. Isn't at all complicated to see that if Crossbones can't beat Steve without the SSS then Frank doing so based soley on the fact that he's a dirty fighter (like Crossbones) is out and out asinine.
being a dirty fighter doesn't somehow give Frank an edge to someone who's his superior... If that was the case Captain America SSS or not would have a LOT more problems on his hands with his rogues gallery.
Punisher is getting a beating in this fight.. and while his damage soak dictates that it will probably be a lonnng beating, it doesn't change the fact that it's still a pretty straight forward one sided fight.
Frank can hang sure, but he can't win... not for the majority.
Originally posted by jinzin
Complicated? You're right... It certainly isn't. Isn't at all complicated to see that if Crossbones can't beat Steve without the SSS then Frank doing so based soley on the fact that he's a dirty fighter (like Crossbones) is out and out asinine.
Not really. Frank has a better h2h showings than Crossbones, when Steve didn't have the SSS Steve had to resort to using dirty tactics to win. Crossbones could have certainly won if he used dirty tactics.
Originally posted by jinzin
being a dirty fighter doesn't somehow give Frank an edge to someone who's his superior...
Cap without the SSS isn't vastly superior to current Punisher. Crossbones nearly beat Cap without SSS, Crossbones isn't better than Punisher. Its worked fine against alot of people.
Originally posted by jinzin
If that was the case Captain America SSS or not would have a LOT more problems on his hands with his rogues gallery.
No he wouldn't comics clearly show that Punisher is a threat to Cap. Hes actually gunned him down twice, hes outsmarted him and hes come up with tactical plans superior to Cap. You're probably going to argue all these cases are PIS, thats not debating anybody can do that.
For starters hes come closer to killing Cap than Crossbones has and has better h2h feats and Crossbones is one of his main enemies.
Originally posted by jinzin
Punisher is getting a beating in this fight.. and while his damage soak dictates that it will probably be a lonnng beating, it doesn't change the fact that it's still a pretty straight forward one sided fight.Frank can hang sure, but he can't win... not for the majority.
I'm not sure if hanging and having a one-sided fight are the same thing. I think you're making assumptions based on Mike Baron Punisher, Garth Einnis and Punisher vs Daredevil. None of those versions are superior to how Punisher is written by Remender. If any of those writers were currently writing Punisher he clearly loses the majority.
Actually theres something about his current situation that would make Punisher lose the majority but prior to him becoming Frankencastle Punisher wins the majority.
Originally posted by jinzin
Punisher is getting a beating in this fight.. and while his damage soak dictates that it will probably be a lonnng beating, it doesn't change the fact that it's still a pretty straight forward one sided fight.Frank can hang sure, but he can't win... not for the majority.
^ agreed. Frank gets cheesed. It's like creamed, but it just goes on a bit longer.
Being a dirty fighter, fighting againt someone who is phsyically and skillfully superior who KNOWS you're a dirty fighter isn't really that much more of a help. On a forum fight in a feat war id say Cap parries and counters everymove Frank makes, hitting for twice the power he's being hit with and hitting more frequently, whilst having a more resilient body and a will to match. Theres nothing to suggest Frank takes anything close to approaching a majority. Steve is just better. Bucky would be a much closer fight.
Originally posted by Juk3n
^ agreed. Frank gets cheesed. It's like creamed, but it just goes on a bit longer.Being a dirty fighter, fighting againt someone who is phsyically and skillfully superior who KNOWS you're a dirty fighter isn't really that much more of a help.
Daredevil knows hes a dirty fighter look how far that got him. Hes also been shown to be tacticaly supeior to Cap so it's still an issue. I also think he knew that Crossbones was a dirty fighter when he first fought him....well he soon found out anyway.
Originally posted by Juk3n
On a forum fight in a feat war id say Cap parries and counters everymove Frank makes, hitting for twice the power he's being hit with and hitting more frequently, whilst having a more resilient body and a will to match. Theres nothing to suggest Frank takes anything close to approaching a majority. Steve is just better. Bucky would be a much closer fight.
You still haven't disproven that dirty fighting will be a factor. You're forgetting that hes held his own against opponents that could beat Cap without the SSS and in two of those cases he was at a disadvantage.
Like alot of people in this thread you are probably basing your arguments on Garth Einnis, 80s Punisher and Pun vs DD faulty logic none of those versions of Punisher are as tough as he is now.
Originally posted by Trackz
He shouldn't take the majority, but it's a good fight.
I don't see why not, Crossbones nearly beat Cap is Crossbones superior to Punisher? Is Cap vastly superior to Daken and Kraven? Both those guys could beat Cap without the SSS. Not to mention in both those cases he was at a disadvantage.
Originally posted by Bentley
I kind of wonder if this "Frank is better than Crossbones" is a forum consensus.
Forum consensus don't mean shit (well not all the time thats for sure) really, and no it obvoulsy isn't. People are probably assuming that Crossbones is better without evaluating the evidence.
Originally posted by Deadline
Not really. Frank has a better h2h showings than Crossbones, when Steve didn't have the SSS Steve had to resort to using dirty tactics to win. Crossbones could have certainly won if he used dirty tactics.
Crossbones has high end showings against Cap, Bucky, Bullseye, and an albeit worn DD.
Crossbones FIGHTS DIRTY... 😐
Originally posted by Deadline
Cap without the SSS isn't vastly superior to current Punisher.
Originally posted by Deadline
Crossbones nearly beat Cap without SSS, Crossbones isn't better than Punisher. Its worked fine against alot of people.
Originally posted by Deadline
No he wouldn't comics clearly show that Punisher is a threat to Cap. Hes actually gunned him down twice, hes outsmarted him and hes come up with tactical plans superior to Cap. You're probably going to argue all these cases are PIS, thats not debating anybody can do that.
😂
Thank you for presuming my argument for me stuffing words into my mouth.. 🙄
No one said Punisher isn't a threat to Cap.. he's just not superior to Cap with or without the SSS and he's DEFINITELY NOT superior because of a gimmick like dirty fighting. 😐
Punisher gunning Cap down.... NOT analogous to a h2h fight.
Punisher having better warzone tactics than Cap.. that's a toss-up and NOT analogous to a h2h fight.
Punisher being smarter than Cap?..... No. 😐
Originally posted by Deadline
For starters hes come closer to killing Cap than Crossbones has and has better h2h feats and Crossbones is one of his main enemies.
Originally posted by Deadline
I'm not sure if hanging and having a one-sided fight are the same thing.
Then Look up Wolverine's fights with the Hulk.... They can be.. and in this case, they are.
Originally posted by Deadline
I think you're making assumptions based on Mike Baron Punisher, Garth Einnis and Punisher vs Daredevil. None of those versions are superior to how Punisher is written by Remender. If any of those writers were currently writing Punisher he clearly loses the majority.Actually theres something about his current situation that would make Punisher lose the majority but prior to him becoming Frankencastle Punisher wins the majority.
😂
So now we get to pick and choose which writer's verion of Punisher we're using for this particular fight?
😆
Oh Zone.... always good for a laugh man.
Rogers FTW.