Steve Rogers vs Frank Castle

Originally posted by jinzin
Yeah? No he doesn't.

Crossbones has high end showings against Cap, Bucky, Bullseye, and an albeit worn DD.

Crossbones FIGHTS DIRTY... 😐

Prove it. What high end showings does CB have against Cap? So does Punisher. CB has been owned by Bucky and hes been owned by Bucky while having Sin to back him up, hes also been owned by Cap while having Red Skull to back him up. Hes got one high end showing against Bullseye, so that makes him better than him at h2h? Hes got a high end showing against a worn out DD? So let me get this straight CB having a high end showing against a worn DD is better than Punisher doing well against DD when hes NOT worn and in some of those cases Punisher was injured? Does that sound objective?

Originally posted by jinzin
In skill? He's superior enough that "dirty fighting" isn't enough of a gimmick to give Frank the win.

You need to disprove that like I said its worked against alot of people.

Originally posted by jinzin

Against a lot of people? Like what? Daken?
It's not enough to give Frank a definite edge over Rogers.

Absolutely because if it worked against Daken, Deadpool, Daredevil, Cyborg Russian, Wolverine, Kraven The Hunter and lots of other people its not going to work against Cap without the SSS. 👆

Originally posted by jinzin

Punisher gunning Cap down.... NOT analogous to a h2h fight.
Punisher having better warzone tactics than Cap.. that's a toss-up and NOT analogous to a h2h fight.
Punisher being smarter than Cap?..... No. 😐

Tactics can be used in h2h and Punisher has done this.

Originally posted by jinzin

Having Cap at gun point isn't ANALOGOUS TO A H2H fight...

You missed the bit where he evaded a suprise attack and blocked and stopped his shield.

Originally posted by jinzin

which is specifically why I brought X bones up who has a plethora of h2h showings under his belt... and has had Cap at his mercy on at least 2 to 3 occassions now, you're being stubburn again.

You haven't proven hes superior. Oh he has he? Wasn't one of those circumstances when CB had a energy beam firing out of his face?

Originally posted by jinzin

So now we get to pick and choose which writer's verion of Punisher we're using for this particular fight?

*sigh* Mike Baron stated that he wanted Punisher to be more realistic. Realistic = weaker. Read Punisher warzone under Chuck Dixon, there are numerous ocassions of him getting beaten up by thugs. Not to mention that under Garth Einnis he nearly got killed by Mafia goons. You really think that current Punisher would lose to thugs after killing a whole group of enhanced highly trained mercenaries and beating martial artists with chi ampage?

What other versions of Punisher have a gone up against Daken with a broken leg? What other versions of Punisher have gone up against an A-list MA after going through a gauntlet of superheroes. What other versions of Punisher have feats better than this?

Originally posted by Deadline
This is probably Punisher’s best damage soak showing and this doesn’t even show you all of it. Punisher shows toon like damage soak and even before all this he hadn’t slept in weeks.

Punisher takes a punch from Leetha, not sure how strong she is but she was shown lifting a coach full of people above her head.

Then gets a full force punch from a blood lusted Spiderman

Gets thrown by Spiderman into the air…just see how high up he is and lands on a ****ing car bonnet.

Then gets hit by a car…LOL. Its like roadrunner cartoon.

After that he gets kicked in the stomache by Spiderman and pulls of one hell of trick shot, but that’s in the gunskills section of this thread.

So yea Punisher can vary drastically according to the writer.

Originally posted by Juk3n
^ agreed. Frank gets cheesed. It's like creamed, but it just goes on a bit longer.

Being a dirty fighter, fighting againt someone who is phsyically and skillfully superior who KNOWS you're a dirty fighter isn't really that much more of a help. On a forum fight in a feat war id say Cap parries and counters everymove Frank makes, hitting for twice the power he's being hit with and hitting more frequently, whilst having a more resilient body and a will to match. Theres nothing to suggest Frank takes anything close to approaching a majority. Steve is just better. Bucky would be a much closer fight.

Oh and CB doesn't fight as dirty as Punisher.

Originally posted by Deadline
Prove it. What high end showings does CB have against Cap? So does Punisher. CB has been owned by Bucky and hes been owned by Bucky while having Sin to back him up, hes also been owned by Cap while having Red Skull to back him up. Hes got one high end showing against Bullseye, so that makes him better than him at h2h? Hes got a high end showing against a worn out DD? So let me get this straight CB having a high end showing against a worn DD is better than Punisher doing well against DD when hes NOT worn and in some of those cases Punisher was injured? Does that sound objective?

Oh for ****'s sake.. Here we go again, alright Zone, I'll deal with this nonsense later....maybe within the week or next.

Originally posted by Deadline
You need to disprove that like I said its worked against alot of people.

If fighting dirty was enough of an edge to beat Cap in a h2h he would have WAY more serious issues with his rogues gallery including the likes of Red Skull, Crossbones, and a number of others....

It's worked against a lot of people who aren't Cap in a LOT of circumstantial situations... Sweet.

Originally posted by Deadline
Absolutely because if it worked against Daken, Deadpool, Daredevil, Cyborg Russian, Wolverine, Kraven The Hunter and lots of other people its not going to work against Cap without the SSS. 👆

Basically you've provided crapola here... good job.

Originally posted by Deadline
Tactics can be used in h2h and Punisher has done this.

Originally posted by Deadline
You missed the bit where he evaded a suprise attack and blocked and stopped his shield.

Originally posted by Deadline
You haven't proven hes superior. Oh he has he? Wasn't one of those circumstances when CB had a energy beam firing out of his face?

Besides that, I don't have to prove he's superior.. just comparible, and that fighting dirty isn't something that gives him an edge... it isn't.

Originally posted by Deadline
*sigh* Mike Baron stated that he wanted Punisher to be more realistic. Realistic = weaker. Read Punisher warzone under Chuck Dixon, there are numerous ocassions of him getting beaten up by thugs. Not to mention that under Garth Einnis he nearly got killed by Mafia goons. You really think that current Punisher would lose to thugs after killing a whole group of enhanced highly trained mercenaries and beating martial artists with chi ampage?

What other versions of Punisher have a gone up against Daken with a broken leg? What other versions of Punisher have gone up against an A-list MA after going through a gauntlet of superheroes. What other versions of Punisher have feats better than this?

So yea Punisher can vary drastically according to the writer.

*sigh* indeed...

Punisher CAN vary drastically according to the writer as ANY character.... OBVIOUSLY.

I'm not equating Punisher to a bunch of thugs... so STOP WITH THE PRESUMPTIONS.

The fact is that in spite of ignoring his lower showings, his higher showings are not on a level of skill that properly match up with Cap... he has nice showings.... but they're not Cap's level...
Fighting dirty doesn't bring him to Cap's level....

I love how when it was Wolverine vs. Cap we had to be subjected to your nonsense about Cap's hundreds upon hundreds of years of battle experience and ability to incap bricks and hurt Korvac.... but in a thread with Punisher.... well.... "Frank fights dirty so he wins"...... naturally... 🙄

More funny still is that you bid me to ignore the possibility of PIS in regards to Punisher being "smarter or more tactical" than Cap.... funny because I vaguely remember a bid to PIS being EXACTLY your defense to Wolverine getting the tactical advantage over Cap...

You realize the whole last part of your post doesn't exactly make a strong case for Punisher right?

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Yes. He doesn't hate the man himself, he hates his methods. He knows Punisher is sick.

Originally posted by Deadline
Not really. Frank has a better h2h showings than Crossbones, when Steve didn't have the SSS Steve had to resort to using dirty tactics to win. Crossbones could have certainly won if he used dirty tactics.

Originally posted by Deadline
Oh and CB doesn't fight as dirty as Punisher.

mmm

*holds hands up - didnt read the OP. Equal Bodies..ok, Fighting IQ id still give to Cap, if this was a 'locate and capture' contest then id prolly go with Punisher. Daredevil is considered the epitome of a Peak human skillful, finesse using martial artist, and tbh, there have been a number of occasions where Frank sheer physicality and fighting prowess overcome DD's sheer 'technical ma' skill advantage. Personally i thinkDD should resort to Nerve striking characters he has such a large skill gap over instead of being written to seeming slug it out. But the panels are the feats and feats support that Frank can hang with DD, someone who is written to be skillful first and abrute second, as punisher is written to be a brute first and skillful second.

Id put DD above an SSS-less Cap, reason being in there encounters Caps Stat advantage does come into play, rather than any sort of ma skill advantage.

On a physical levl Cap will still be able to manuver the way he does, but the loss in speed and striking power will mean that he's tagged far more. If it was a points bout in a dojo id have to give Cap the nod. In an alley no holds barred, id give him 6/maybe7/ same as DD. Punisher does have SOME cards up his sleeve i'll admit that.

Originally posted by Eternal Idol
So, what you're saying is... when Castle fights dirty, it's a brilliant strategy and a sign of great fighting prowess... but whenever Rogers has fought dirty to win a fight, it's a sign of cowardice and weakness?

mmm

😂

I was just about to mention that hypocritical nonsense too....

Funny how his "logic" "works" eh? 😱

Originally posted by Juk3n
*holds hands up - didnt read the OP. Equal Bodies..ok, Fighting IQ id still give to Cap, if this was a 'locate and capture' contest then id prolly go with Punisher. Daredevil is considered the epitome of a Peak human skillful, finesse using martial artist, and tbh, there have been a number of occasions where Frank sheer physicality and fighting prowess overcome DD's sheer 'technical ma' skill advantage. Personally i thinkDD should resort to Nerve striking characters he has such a large skill gap over instead of being written to seeming slug it out. But the panels are the feats and feats support that Frank can hang with DD, someone who is written to be skillful first and abrute second, as punisher is written to be a brute first and skillful second.

Id put DD above an SSS-less Cap, reason being in there encounters Caps Stat advantage does come into play, rather than any sort of ma skill advantage.

On a physical levl Cap will still be able to manuver the way he does, but the loss in speed and striking power will mean that he's tagged far more. If it was a points bout in a dojo id have to give Cap the nod. In an alley no holds barred, id give him 6/maybe7/ same as DD. Punisher does have SOME cards up his sleeve i'll admit that.

Again though, the reason that Punisher tends to hang with DD or breat him usually ends up being due to as you put, his sheer physicality and his damage soak... But that's the whole issue with this thread being "equal bodies" it works both ways.

If you gave DD his skillset and Punisher's body he wouldn't be losing any fights to Punsher. And that's practically what you have here.

The only difference being that Caps even less of a boyscout that DD is.

IMO he still wrecks Castle in this thread.

Originally posted by jinzin
If you gave DD his skillset and Punisher's body he wouldn't be losing any fights to Punsher. And that's practically what you have here.

makes sense.

Originally posted by Bentley
Equal bodies. Straight h2h.

Fight on a naval base.

Anyone who says otherwise is either making things up or is the artist formerly known as Alfheim.

capameridur

Originally posted by Badabing
Steve wins. He's a better and more experienced fighter.

Anyone who says otherwise is either making things up or is the autist formerly known as Alfheim.

capameridur

warned.

ahah

Originally posted by Badabing
Steve wins. He's a better and more experienced fighter.

Anyone who says otherwise is either making things up or is the artist formerly known as Alfheim.

capameridur

😂

Classic.

Originally posted by jinzin
😂

Classic.

Originally posted by Eternal Idol
So, what you're saying is... when Castle fights dirty, it's a brilliant strategy and a sign of great fighting prowess... but whenever Rogers has fought dirty to win a fight, it's a sign of cowardice and weakness?

mmm

If you assume that a person is being illogical before the debate has started you're going to create arguments that the person isn't making. Try to read what im saying first analyse it then come to a decision, don't make your mind up before the debate has started. You do this alot, yea I have a feeling somebody is going to make a certain argument.

Originally posted by Juk3n
*holds hands up - didnt read the OP. Equal Bodies..ok, Fighting IQ id still give to Cap, if this was a 'locate and capture' contest then id prolly go with Punisher. Daredevil is considered the epitome of a Peak human skillful, finesse using martial artist, and tbh, there have been a number of occasions where Frank sheer physicality and fighting prowess overcome DD's sheer 'technical ma' skill advantage. Personally i thinkDD should resort to Nerve striking characters he has such a large skill gap over instead of being written to seeming slug it out. But the panels are the feats and feats support that Frank can hang with DD, someone who is written to be skillful first and abrute second, as punisher is written to be a brute first and skillful second.

Id put DD above an SSS-less Cap, reason being in there encounters Caps Stat advantage does come into play, rather than any sort of ma skill advantage.

On a physical levl Cap will still be able to manuver the way he does, but the loss in speed and striking power will mean that he's tagged far more. If it was a points bout in a dojo id have to give Cap the nod. In an alley no holds barred, id give him 6/maybe7/ same as DD. Punisher does have SOME cards up his sleeve i'll admit that.

Again is Crossbones better than Punisher, do you understand the relevance of this point? If Crossbones nearly beat Cap without the SSS why are you arguing Punisher loses the majority? No offence you're dodging points.

Also Punisher is alot better now.

Punisher is a very underrated h2h combatant, but he doesn't hold a candle to Cap, IMO.

Regarding Crossbones fighting Steve w/o the SSS, are you talking about the Streets of Poison arc? If so, IIRC Cap was just hours removed from a full body blood transfusion. I doubt he was at 100%

Originally posted by Silent Master
Regarding Crossbones fighting Steve w/o the SSS, are you talking about the Streets of Poison arc? If so, IIRC Cap was just hours removed from a full body blood transfusion. I doubt he was at 100%

and one of Crossbones arms was injured and had bandages on it. Cap even pointed out he was favouring one side. Neither of them were 100%.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Punisher is a very underrated h2h combatant, but he doesn't hold a candle to Cap, IMO.

Thats probably because your basing that opinion on pre PWJ Fraction/Remender.

This is one of the points nobody seems to get, hes tougher than hes ever been.