Steve Rogers vs Frank Castle

Originally posted by Deadline
and one of Crossbones arms was injured and had bandages on it. Cap even pointed out he was favouring one side. Neither of them were 100%.

Thats probably because your basing that opinion on pre PWJ Fraction/Remender.

This is one of the points nobody seems to get, hes tougher than hes ever been.

Originally posted by Uriel005
... Cap is acknowledged as one of the worlds premiere Martial Artists not on style but through years of experience he's put together a system that works and is still leaps and bounds ahead of bucky IMO who's about = Frank. I know A>B>C doesn't necessarily work but in this case considering he basically taught bucky everything and he hasn't surpassed non-SSS cap I think the assumption is safe to make.

I'm really not sure what you're talking about. Cap without the SSS > Bucky based on the fact he taught him everything he knows? Thats not even true for starters. Why are you focusing on Bucky?

Originally posted by Deadline
I'm really not sure what you're talking about. Cap without the SSS > Bucky based on the fact he taught him everything he knows? Thats not even true for starters. Why are you focusing on Bucky?

This is a great concept. But considering Steve's overall skill set, and the fact that recently he beat down three men (all with the same Super Soldier Serum as Steve, even stronger and faster than him) at the same time. If Steve and Frank have equal bodies. Steve still will have the same fighting advantages without the other physical advantages prior.

Originally posted by Deadline
If you assume that a person is being illogical before the debate has started you're going to create arguments that the person isn't making. Try to read what im saying first analyse it then come to a decision, don't make your mind up before the debate has started. You do this alot, yea I have a feeling somebody is going to make a certain argument.

All else being equal, Captain America is still a much better fighter than the Punisher--who though often criminally underrated in h2h, is simply outclassed here. That alone tells me Castle would get his ass kicked.

anyone notice deadline not responding to jinzin. I wonder why..........

Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan
anyone notice deadline not responding to jinzin. I wonder why..........

😛

Originally posted by Badabing
He has him blocked? dur

😛

lol

Originally posted by Eternal Idol
I didn't assume a thing until I read a few of your posts. I even quoted two posts which seem to indicate the contradiction I'm seeing in your argument.

I'll explain it to you. Yes Punisher using dirty tactics is a sign of good strategy because thats what he always does even when he can beat a person in h2h. Heres an example.

Originally posted by Deadline
[b]VII. MARTIAL ARTS

Lulz, not a showing but it just shows Punisher fighting philosophy. Fight dirty.

[/B]

He didn't need to do that, he could have beaten the guy in h2h. Its his philsophy and his whole approach to fighting.

See what Punisher says about Captain America here. Punishers approach to fighting and tactics is different from Cap, Punisher tends to fight dirty be default Cap doesn't.

http://img94.imageshack.us/f/puncapcompare1.jpg/

The reason why Cap used a certain technique to beat Crossbones was because he was a formidable opponent. Obvoulsy the point that Crossbones isn't better than Punisher has gone completely over your head. No where does it mean that hes a coward (yea my favourite character is a coward...thats the point I was trying to make) thats something you invented, if you want to interpret that as weakness and get into a semantic debate with me, go ahead.

Originally posted by Eternal Idol

You see, the thing is, you tend to make illogical arguments in threads where Castle is clearly the underdog.

No, yet again for the 100th time you misunderstood the point I was making in the first place because you're too busy trying to win. Whats really interesting is that you're so busy trying to find wholes in my argument you don't even realsie that even if it was a contradiction that doesn't mean that Punisher can't win the majority because nobodys proven that Crossbones is better.

Originally posted by Eternal Idol

All else being equal, Captain America is still a much better fighter than the Punisher--who though often criminally underrated in h2h, is simply outclassed here. That alone tells me Castle would get his ass kicked.

Im afraid your dodging points, I don't want to go over them again because I don't want to respond to both you and jinzin at the same time.

Originally posted by Dum Dum Dugan
think it funny that he blocks him right after jinzin puts a pwning on him, sore loser he must be 😄 .

lol

Um I'm busy I'm going to have a field with his post. Also please try not to back him up without thinking, you don't have to agree with everything he says. I was going to list some of his arguments here but I don't want this thread to get too crowded.

Originally posted by Deadline
I'll explain it to you. Yes Punisher using dirty tactics is a sign of good strategy because thats what he always does even when he can beat a person in h2h. Heres an example.

He didn't need to do that, he could have beaten the guy in h2h. Its his philsophy and his whole approach to fighting.

See what Punisher says about Captain America here. Punishers approach to fighting and tactics is different from Cap, Punisher tends to fight dirty be default Cap doesn't.

The reason why Cap used a certain technique to beat Crossbones was because he was a formidable opponent. Obvoulsy the point that Crossbones isn't better than Punisher has gone completely over your head. No where does it mean that hes a coward (yea my favourite character is a coward...thats the point I was trying to make) thats something you invented, if you want to interpret that as weakness and get into a semantic debate with me, go ahead.

No, yet again for the 100th time you misunderstood the point I was making in the first place because you're too busy trying to win. Whats really interesting is that you're so busy trying to find wholes in my argument you don't even realsie that even if it was a contradiction that doesn't mean that Punisher can't win the majority because nobodys proven that Crossbones is better.

Im afraid your dodging points, I don't want to go over them again because I don't want to respond to both you and jinzin at the same time.

yawn

How about you prove Castle is better than Crossbones in h2h? If you could, I'd be more open to your argument for Castle against Rogers. I can't see Castle doing better than 5/10 split at best.

Originally posted by Eternal Idol
yawn

How about you prove Castle is better than Crossbones in h2h? If you could, I'd be more open to your argument for Castle against Rogers. I can't see Castle doing better than 5/10 split at best.

Concession accepted. I'm actually in the process of replying to jinzins post but maybe I'll respond to yours instead. Well for starters Crossbones doesn't have better feats. Hes had Cap at an advantage but he had a super power, Punisher has had DD at an advantage while being injured. Having Cap at an advantage is better than fighting Daken with a broken leg and other problems. Having Cap at an advantage isn't better than stalemating Kraven after going through a gauntelt of heroes and blacking out before the fight.

Originally posted by Deadline
Concession accepted. I'm actually in the process of replying to jinzins post but maybe I'll respond to yours instead. Well for starters Crossbones doesn't have better feats. Hes had Cap at an advantage but he had a super power, Punisher has had DD at an advantage while being injured. Having Cap at an advantage is better than fighting Daken with a broken leg and other problems. Having Cap at an advantage isn't better than stalemating Kraven after going through a gauntelt of heroes and blacking out before the fight.

5/10 against Crossbones, I meant. Crossbones doesn't have nearly as many appearances as Castle though, so of course Frank's going to have more and better feats. But what he does have puts him somewhere near Cap's league, which is definitely above Castle.

Punisher's h2h feats often owe more to his physicality than his skill. Against Rogers, Castle has no advantages since the thread stipulations state both of them have equal bodies. It's just like I stated in my first post--it's like he's fighting a better version of himself.

Originally posted by Eternal Idol
5/10 against Crossbones, I meant. Crossbones doesn't have nearly as many appearances as Castle though, so of course Frank's going to have more and better feats.

Temugin and Mandarin have less appearances than Crossbones and they beat Punisher in h2h and Crossbones in h2h, so that logic doesn't work. Crossbone still has enough appearances and if we look at both Punisher feats and Crossbones, Punisher comes out on top.

Originally posted by Eternal Idol

But what he does have puts him somewhere near Cap's league, which is definitely above Castle.

You sure about that? What about getting owned by Cap while having Red Skull to back him up? Getting owned by Bucky? Getting owned by Bucky while having Sin to back him up? In fact I think hes only held his own against Cap with the SSS once, one other time he had a superpower.

Please don't make statements without backing them up. This is a problem with this thread. You just stated that its defintely above Castle, you have to prove that, you haven't.

Originally posted by Eternal Idol

Punisher's h2h feats often owe more to his physicality than his skill.

Its both actually.

Originally posted by Eternal Idol

Against Rogers, Castle has no advantages since the thread stipulations state both of them have equal bodies. It's just like I stated in my first post--it's like he's fighting a better version of himself.

Yes he does, with equal bodies he can take more punishment and he can use the envinronment to help him. Cap loses the SSS advantage.

Originally posted by Deadline
Temugin and Mandarin have less appearances than Crossbones and they beat Punisher in h2h and Crossbones in h2h, so that logic doesn't work. Crossbone still has enough appearances and if we look at both Punisher feats and Crossbones, Punisher comes out on top.

Originally posted by Deadline
You sure about that? What about getting owned by Cap while having Red Skull to back him up? Getting owned by Bucky? Getting owned by Bucky while having Sin to back him up? In fact I think hes only held his own against Cap with the SSS once, one other time he had a superpower.

Please don't make statements without backing them up. This is a problem with this thread. You just stated that its defintely above Castle, you have to prove that, you haven't.

Captain America is a beast, so Crossbones and the Red Skull losing to him doesn't take anything away from either, nor does it make Castle any better. I don't remember Crossbones/Sin vs. Bucky being strictly h2h, but I could be mistaken there. I'll see what I can do to dig up scans, but it might take a while.

Originally posted by Deadline
Its both actually.

Yes, but it owed more to his physicality than his skill.

Originally posted by Deadline
Yes he does, with equal bodies he can take more punishment and he can use the envinronment to help him. Cap loses the SSS advantage.

All things being equal, everyone agrees that Steve wins...except one poster. Shall I close?

Originally posted by Eternal Idol
Castle is definitely better with weapons and strategy, but they seem roughly even in physicality, except for damage soak. I'd give the h2h edge to Crossbones, but I'll wait for scans to comment further on that.

You could go to the Punisher capability thread, but I should be posting some later this week.

Originally posted by Eternal Idol

Captain America is a beast, so Crossbones and the Red Skull losing to him doesn't take anything away from either, nor does it make Castle any better. I don't remember Crossbones/Sin vs. Bucky being strictly h2h, but I could be mistaken there. I'll see what I can do to dig up scans, but it might take a while.

The point is you said he was near to Cap, that disproves it. It doesn't matter wether its not strictly h2h (within reason). Using that logic 99% of feats wouldn't be allowed and that would include Wolverine ones.

Originally posted by Eternal Idol

Yes, but it owed more to his physicality than his skill.

Maybe in some of them but theres alot where its both.

Originally posted by Eternal Idol

With equal bodies, both have the same damage soak.

No they don't, when has Cap ever fought an A-lister with a broken leg? Considering that I think taking class 100 shots are PIS I don't think he has better damage soak showings than Frank.

Originally posted by Eternal Idol

And what could he use around him on a navy vessel? Nevermind that thread stipulations stated it's pure h2h.

Im not entirely sure but considering the fact that hes consistently been able to find weapons in lots of different envinronments he most likely will. I mean hell theres bound to be something he can hit Cap with.

Originally posted by Deadline
You could go to the Punisher capability thread, but I should be posting some later this week.

The point is you said he was near to Cap, that disproves it. It doesn't matter wether its not strictly h2h (within reason). Using that logic 99% of feats wouldn't be allowed and that would include Wolverine ones.

Maybe in some of them but theres alot where its both.

No they don't, when has Cap ever fought an A-lister with a broken leg? Considering that I think taking class 100 shots are PIS I don't think he has better damage soak showings than Frank.

Im not entirely sure but considering the fact that hes consistently been able to find weapons in lots of different envinronments he most likely will. I mean hell theres bound to be something he can hit Cap with.

Originally posted by Bentley
Equal bodies.

That brings us to the next point. The OP states...

Originally posted by Bentley
Straight h2h.

Punisher is a better strategist... That's speculative and open to debate. After all, Steve led soldiers in WWII to several victories against enemies and enemy bases. Not to mention all the strategy Steve displayed as an Avenger.

So please tell me you have some concrete, canon evidence which shows that Frank is superior in h2h skills versus Steve. Because most of your posts appear to be angled at somehow changing circumstances and stipulations to make Frank win somehow. Your notion of me being "not funny" doesn't change a thing.

Originally posted by Badabing
You're posts are mostly dodging the key points of this thread. The OP states... And you're trying to play up that Frank has better damage soak. That point is moot given the equal bodies stipulation. Aside from that, no amount of damage soak will compensate for Steve's superior skills.

I'm not dodging any points. It could certainly be argued that taking class 100 shots are PIS, bearing that in mind please give examples of Cap fighting with a broken leg, with his arm chopped off and match this.

Originally posted by Deadline
This is probably Punisher’s best damage soak showing and this doesn’t even show you all of it. Punisher shows toon like damage soak and even before all this he hadn’t slept in weeks.

Punisher takes a punch from Leetha, not sure how strong she is but she was shown lifting a coach full of people above her head.

Then gets a full force punch from a blood lusted Spiderman

Gets thrown by Spiderman into the air…just see how high up he is and lands on a ****ing car bonnet.

Then gets hit by a car…LOL. Its like roadrunner cartoon.

After that he gets kicked in the stomache by Spiderman and pulls of one hell of trick shot, but that’s in the gunskills section of this thread.

Yes his damage soak can compensate for lack of skill because its helped him against opponents that are more formidable ( in some cases arguable) than Cap without SSS (basically equal bodies is Cap without SSS advantage).

Daken
Deadpool
Daredevil
Alousha Kravinoff

In all fairness I could accuse you of dodging the points and I said earleir. If Cross bones can nearly beat Cap without SSS why do you think Punisher can't? Is Crossbone superior to Pun in h2h? Don't you need to rpove that?

Originally posted by Badabing

That brings us to the next point. The OP states... Which Pr and I have ruled as strictly hand to hand combat. Yet you're saying Frank will use his surroundings. How, by hiding from Steve's ass whooping? It's not even a debate who's the better fighter. Heck, Steve was recently transformed to his 90 pound weakling body and took out several SS amped guards strictly on his skill.

Actually my bad I missed that. Several SS guards arent superior to Daken (considering that Pun had a broken leg, slashes alongsige his back that needed bandging and he was suicidal) I never argued that Frank was superior in h2h so you're making an argument I'm not making.

Originally posted by Badabing

Punisher is a better strategist... That's speculative and open to debate. After all, Steve led soldiers in WWII to several victories against enemies and enemy bases. Not to mention all the strategy Steve displayed as an Avenger.

I didn't say it wasn't open for debate, but im basing it on the fact that in CW Cap went with Puns plan instead of his own. Pun has putsmarted him before. Theres also this showing here were Pun talks about the difference between both of them.

Originally posted by Deadline

The writer implies that Punishers tactics are superior to Captain Americas because hes more sneaky. This point is further emphasised in the way they both try to get to the driver and Captain America gets punked.

Punisher also has alot of experience in the Vietnam War. Leading the Avengers doesn't neccesarily prove anything because my example are directly applicable eg they involve both Cap and Punisher.

Originally posted by Badabing

So please tell me you have some concrete, canon evidence which shows that Frank is superior in h2h skills versus Steve. Because most of your posts appear to be angled at somehow changing circumstances and stipulations to make Frank win somehow. Your notion of me being "not funny" doesn't change a thing.

Please don't accuse me of doing anything I missed the bit where it said h2h. I never said that Frank was superior to Cap in h2h should I start accusing you of trying distort what I'm saying? I could also accuse me of dodging some of my points eg Crossbones.

My argument is that Punisher is highly skilled but because of his damage soak and dirty fighting he can win a majority. He doesn't need to use the envinronment either. Heres him using tatics against formidable opponents.

Here Punisher bites DD making him let go of his headlock and ends up getting stamped on the head. I’m a bit pissed off because I forgot to put this in the respect thread.

http://img233.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=85269_frank6_122_108lo.jpg

Here he bites Daken which startles him and causes him to take his claws out of Punisher. http://img97.imageshack.us/i/punishervsdakenpart13.jpg/

Here he knees Kraven in the nuts, which causes him to drop his teleporter. The teleporter is important because he was using it in the fight. After that we don’t see him again, he could have teleported back into the fight but didn’t, this is obvoulsy because Punisher was too much.

http://img191.imageshack.us/i/punishervskraven7.jpg/

This is self-explanatory, don’t tell me Pun won’t find something to hit Cap with in a whole warship. Bare in mind he’s consistently been able to make weapons out the environment in lots of different settings.

http://img715.imageshack.us/i/punisherv416p19.jpg/

Cap wins

Originally posted by Deadline
I'm not dodging any points. It could certainly be argued that taking class 100 shots are PIS, bearing that in mind please give examples of Cap fighting with a broken leg, with his arm chopped off and match this.

Yes his damage soak can compensate for lack of skill because its helped him against opponents that are more formidable ( in some cases arguable) than Cap without SSS (basically equal bodies is Cap without SSS advantage).

Daken
Deadpool
Daredevil
Alousha Kravinoff

In all fairness I could accuse you of dodging the points and I said earleir. If Cross bones can nearly beat Cap without SSS why do you think Punisher can't? Is Crossbone superior to Pun in h2h? Don't you need to rpove that?

Actually my bad I missed that. Several SS guards arent superior to Daken (considering that Pun had a broken leg, slashes alongsige his back that needed bandging and he was suicidal) I never argued that Frank was superior in h2h so you're making an argument I'm not making.

I didn't say it wasn't open for debate, but im basing it on the fact that in CW Cap went with Puns plan instead of his own. Pun has putsmarted him before. Theres also this showing here were Pun talks about the difference between both of them.

Punisher also has alot of experience in the Vietnam War. Leading the Avengers doesn't neccesarily prove anything because my example are directly applicable eg they involve both Cap and Punisher.

Please don't accuse me of doing anything I missed the bit where it said h2h. I never said that Frank was superior to Cap in h2h should I start accusing you of trying distort what I'm saying? I could also accuse me of dodging some of my points eg Crossbones.

My argument is that Punisher is highly skilled but because of his damage soak and dirty fighting he can win a majority. He doesn't need to use the envinronment either. Heres him using tatics against formidable opponents.

Here Punisher bites DD making him let go of his headlock and ends up getting stamped on the head. I’m a bit pissed off because I forgot to put this in the respect thread.

http://img233.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=85269_frank6_122_108lo.jpg

Here he bites Daken which startles him and causes him to take his claws out of Punisher. http://img97.imageshack.us/i/punishervsdakenpart13.jpg/

Here he knees Kraven in the nuts, which causes him to drop his teleporter. The teleporter is important because he was using it in the fight. After that we don’t see him again, he could have teleported back into the fight but didn’t, this is obvoulsy because Punisher was too much.

http://img191.imageshack.us/i/punishervskraven7.jpg/

This is self-explanatory, don’t tell me Pun won’t find something to hit Cap with in a whole warship. Bare in mind he’s consistently been able to make weapons out the environment in lots of different settings.

http://img715.imageshack.us/i/punisherv416p19.jpg/

They have equal physical stats and Steve is a better fighter. You are a Steve Rogers dodger!