Originally posted by Daredevil1
Steve 7-8/10
Well that's a bit too much there. If Steve's going to take the majority it shouldn't be no more than 6/10. I know it's your opinion and I respect that. As Q99 pointed out, Steve dose have an advantage physically but slight. As in fighting skill. Steve is up against another highly trained and experienced martial arts master. Steve won't take Bronze Tiger easy at all. And Bronze Tiger could be the one who takes the majority here as well.
Originally posted by Marvelknight
Well that's a bit too much there. If Steve's going to take the majority it shouldn't be no more than 6/10. I know it's your opinion and I respect that. As Q99 pointed out, Steve dose have an advantage physically but slight. As in fighting skill. Steve is up against another highly trained and experienced martial arts master. Steve won't take Bronze Tiger easy at all. And Bronze Tiger could be the who takes the majority here as well.
I don't know Caps stamina is an issue, even if BT can match him via skill hes going to get tired eventually.
Originally posted by Deadline
I don't know Caps stamina is an issue, even if BT can match him via skill hes going to get tired eventually.
Very true indeed. But let's not count Ben out just yet. Try to consider the fact that he has and can hold his own with an opponent with higher stats physically. I also notice that during Batman's second fight with Bronze Tiger, Bruce was feeling the pressure. Even with prep going into the fight he could only stalemate Bronze Tiger. Batman pointed out that he hopes that he could at least slow Bronze Tiger down. Bronze Tiger is very fast and agile enough to keep Steve on his toes.
Originally posted by Marvelknight
Very true indeed. But let's not count Ben out just yet. Try to consider the fact that he has and can hold his own with an opponent with higher stats physically. I also notice that during Batman second fight with Bronze Tiger, Bruce was feeling the pressure. Even with prep going into the fight he could only stalemate Bronze Tiger. He pointed out that he hopes he could at least slow Bronze Tiger down. Bronze Tiger is very fast and agile enough to keep Steve on his toes.
Yea but Cap is better than Bats (I should say imo but I think I can prove it).
Not counting the Tiger out but Steve takes it regardless if its 6/10 or 7-8/10.
Stats are in the lead, brain enhancement plus hand to hand Steve is better in the the tactical sense of fighting and his enhanced sight, coordination, reflexes, total speed, stamina, durability equals a hospital night for Tiger and a very weary night for Steve(I'll give Ben his props)
Originally posted by Juk3n
Cap has the Daft Punk Advantage ; Harder, better , Faster, Stronger Cap can hang with Danny 'the Chi-Bomb' Rand sans IF Strike. Steves ability to operate at top efficiency indeffinetley (as far as BT is concerned) is the reason he wins.
It's your and only your opinion that Steve is better. Better how? Please tell me, because one isn't simply better 'cause you say so. Steve is stronger, and has better endurance. Bronze Tiger has cat-like speed and agility. He's even shown to be able to keep up with Slade. Even if Steve is indeed faster. It will not be by far. And Bronze Tiger may be the better fighter. In JLA #18 Vixen took Bronze Tiger's strength, then proceeded to hit Ben with enough force to knock him into a wall. And Ben damn near went through it. Bronze Tiger asked Vixen if she use the power of some animal. But to herself she explains that it was Ben's strength she used to hit him with.
Originally posted by Deadline
Yea but Cap is better than Bats (I should say imo but I think I can prove it).
Steve has some physical advantages. But it doesn't make him better than Bruce. Please don't go there. Because those two can beat each other.
Originally posted by Daredevil1
Not counting the Tiger out but Steve takes it regardless if its 6/10 or 7-8/10.Stats are in the lead, brain enhancement plus hand to hand Steve is better in the the tactical sense of fighting and his enhanced sight, coordination, reflexes, total speed, stamina, durability equals a hospital night for Tiger and a very weary night for Steve(I'll give Ben his props)
If that's all a character needs is stats. Steve, Bruce, Lady Shiva, and many others wouldn't do half the things they do against stronger and faster, and more durable opponents. Slade had better stats. Better then Steve's imo and Bronze Tiger was able to hold his own. Bronze Tiger almost had Slade captured on his own. That's just one man. Aqua Man, Hal Jordan and Wally West couldn't even do that with all their abilities together. So stats are not always everything when you're dealing with highly skilled martial arts masters.
Bronze Tiger is a master martial artist. His tactical sense of fighting, coordination, and reflexes are on par with Steve. How many people you know, took down Batman with just one move??? Nobody.... Not even Steve, when he and Bruce tested their abilities. They matched move for move, block for block, counter for counter. Bruce didn't even see that kick from Bronze Tiger coming. And then Batman prepared to fight Ben after and still couldn't beat him. Do you know how much Bruce can do with prep time?? That said a lot when he only stalemated Bronze Tiger. That meant that Ben was noting to #@*% with prep time or not.
Originally posted by Marvelknight
It's your and only your opinion that Steve is better. Better how? Please tell me, because one isn't simply better 'cause you say so. Steve is stronger, and has better endurance. Bronze Tiger has cat-like speed and agility. He's even shown to be able to keep up with Slade. Even if Steve is indeed faster. It will not be by far. And Bronze Tiger may be the better fighter. In JLA #18 Vixen took Bronze Tiger's strength, then proceeded to hit Ben with enough force to knock him into a wall. And Ben damn near went through it. Bronze Tiger asked Vixen if she use the power of some animal. But to herself she explains that it was Ben's strength she used to hit him with.
Yea its my opinion but I've got more proof to justify my case. I know at least two writers that stated that Cap was better, and theres the fact that Cap regularly fights better opponent.s
Originally posted by Marvelknight
Steve has some physical advantages. But it doesn't make him better than Bruce. Please don't go there. Because those two can beat each other.
Hell yea I'll go there, I got stuff to back it up.
Originally posted by Marvelknight
If that's all a character needs is stats. Steve, Bruce, Lady Shiva, and many others wouldn't do half the things they do against stronger and faster, and more durable opponents. Slade had better stats. Better then Steve's imo and Bronze Tiger was able to hold his own. Bronze Tiger almost had Slade captured on his own. That's just one man. Aqua Man, Hal Jordan and Wally West couldn't even do that with all their abilities together. So stats are not always everything when you're dealing with highly skilled martial arts masters.
Its not just stats even without the SSS Cap is highly skilled.
Originally posted by Deadline
Yea its my opinion but I've got more proof to justify my case. I know at least two writers that stated that Cap was better, and theres the fact that Cap regularly fights better opponent.sHell yea I'll go there, I got stuff to back it up.
Its not just stats even without the SSS Cap is highly skilled.
Writers also do things with an character that completely contradict years of establishment. What has been shown is that Steve could beat Batman but it would take a very long time to do it. But that statement doesn't mean that Batman couldn't beat Steve. You're underestimating Batman's own will and fighting prowess.
Originally posted by Deadline
Yea its my opinion but I've got more proof to justify my case. I know at least two writers that stated that Cap was better, and theres the fact that Cap regularly fights better opponent.sHell yea I'll go there, I got stuff to back it up.
Its not just stats even without the SSS Cap is highly skilled.
Are you assuming that Batman doesn't have years of feats that show that Bruce isn't far behind Steve in physicality? Batman's definitely more intelligent and a far Better tactician imo with good reason (I don't see Steve coming back from the omega Sanction using the same level of wit).
Originally posted by Deadline
Yea its my opinion but I've got more proof to justify my case. I know at least two writers that stated that Cap was better, and theres the fact that Cap regularly fights better opponent.sHell yea I'll go there, I got stuff to back it up.
Its not just stats even without the SSS Cap is highly skilled.
So is Bruce and I'd even say he's more skilled than Steve in martial arts and all around.
Originally posted by Marvelknight
Are you assuming that Batman doesn't have years of feats that show that Bruce isn't far behind Steve in physicality? Batman's definitely more intelligent and a far Better tactician imo with good reason (I don't see Steve coming back from the omega Sanction using the same level of wit).
the SSS guarantees that Bruce can't hit Steve's physical levels. In theory he's "peak human", but in practice Steve has taken a bullet to the head point blank and come back from clinical death in minutes, threw a shield hard enough to overtake a rocket, run 60mph while carrying someone else, leapt 2 stories vertically unassisted...the list of crap like this is endless, but the point is the same- it simply isn't possible to hit the level rogers is at with training alone. And as someone else pointed out, Rogers' body doesn't generate fatigue poisons, so his stamina advantage is massive.
As for tactics, the man has been the leader of the avengers for what..a billion years now? come on. Everyone and their grandma defers to steve on the battlefield.
So is Bruce and I'd even say he's more skilled than Steve in martial arts and all around. [/B]
dead wrong. Rogers is a master of every known style in the MU, and has beaten or stalemated even those with "unique" styles. Taskmaster (who also explicitly knows EVERY style there is) makes a point of training people in Steve's style, since it's so effective. You might be able to make a claim that they're even, but claiming bruce is "more skilled" is impossible.
Same as the Captain America vs DD fight, only the odds are even more in Steve's favour since Ben lacks DD's superhuman abilities.
Steve is better - if only slightly - in every conceivable way. Initially it will be an interesting and more or less even fight (but still leaning in Cap's favour)... but after that every swing, every blow, every moment will begin to slow and tire Ben, while Cap will remain 100%. Bronze Tiger cannot beat Captain America in a fight. He can put up a fight for the first 3-5 minutes, but Captain America's superior stats coupled with his nearly infinite stamina make him too much to handle for any street level human to legitimately take in h2h without powers or prep.
Originally posted by Space M ummy
the SSS guarantees that Bruce can't hit Steve's physical levels. In theory he's "peak human", but in practice Steve has taken a bullet to the head point blank and come back from clinical death in minutes, threw a shield hard enough to overtake a rocket, run 60mph while carrying someone else, leapt 2 stories vertically unassisted...the list of crap like this is endless, but the point is the same- it simply isn't possible to hit the level rogers is at with training alone. And as someone else pointed out, Rogers' body doesn't generate fatigue poisons, so his stamina advantage is massive.As for tactics, the man has been the leader of the avengers for what..a billion years now? come on. Everyone and their grandma defers to steve on the battlefield.
dead wrong. Rogers is a master of every known style in the MU, and has beaten or stalemated even those with "unique" styles. Taskmaster (who also explicitly knows EVERY style there is) makes a point of training people in Steve's style, since it's so effective. You might be able to make a claim that they're even, but claiming bruce is "more skilled" is impossible.
Yes Space M ummy, that is true. Bruce wouldn't be able to achieve some of Steve's feats. But you forget that Steve is a compliment to Bruce and everything Bruce has achieve. Considering that Bruce had to work very hard everyday to be at the level that he is today.
I love Steve Rogers. He's an excellent character. He has an iron will, superb fighting skills and a sound tactical mind. Nothing can be taken away from him, not at all. But it's not really so much that he relies on his endurance to win battles. The man has an weapon, made of metals that is stronger, harder, and more durable than Wolverine's entire body. Steve can Block and reflect. Use the shield to attack up close or from a far with surgical precision... But Steve doesn't have his shield in this fight.
Batman has been shown lifting 1000 lbs. and can hold up weights a little over 1000 lbs.under duress. He's dented steel doors, bend steel, split trees at the base with back kicks, and catch arrows in mid flight without looking. Bruce can control his breathing to reduce panic, and hit with enough force to send a 240 lbs. grown man through a wall. Even though Batman doesn't jump as high, he's still leaps with such grace, surpassing even the fineness Chinese acrobats. And can run at least 30 mph.The man is at the peak physically as any human male could be naturally in every way. You say " his stamina advantage is massive". Yes, but it will still take Steve a long time to beat Bruce.
And no, in fact I think I'm right about Batman being the better martial artist. Steve does not know every martial arts style on earth. Batman Knows and utilizes 127 martial arts styles. He's master offensive and defensive techniques, along with advance forms of mediation and pressure point strikes. Batman is an master martial artist. Every punch and kick is thrown with precision and accuracy, with superb technique and power. It' a known fact that Batman is all around more skilled than Steve. Batman can come up with more ways to overcome any situation than Steve can. Bruce has proven this. He's efficient in biology, chemistry, forensic science, and criminology. Batman's an inventor, Master detective, Ninja master, master escape artist, vehicles expert, master tactician, and the list gos on and on. You are really underestimating Batman here.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Same as the Captain America vs DD fight, only the odds are even more in Steve's favour since Ben lacks DD's superhuman abilities.Steve is better - if only slightly - in every conceivable way. Initially it will be an interesting and more or less even fight (but still leaning in Cap's favour)... but after that every swing, every blow, every moment will begin to slow and tire Ben, while Cap will remain 100%. Bronze Tiger cannot beat Captain America in a fight. He can put up a fight for the first 3-5 minutes, but Captain America's superior stats coupled with his nearly infinite stamina make him too much to handle for [b]any
street level human to legitimately take in h2h without powers or prep. [/B]
Batman can operate at peak efficiency for at least an hour before showing any signs of fatigue. Even while enduring extreme pain, Batman can still function. Anyone thinking that Steve will just beat Batman with ease is out of their minds, in complete denial.