Originally posted by dmills
One of the things that I've always found interesting about Hyperion is that to my knowledge there is no true 616 version. That's pretty bemusing considering the fact that the character gets a fair amount of panel time in the 616 (or used to).
hey that's Gilgamesh (Forgotten One) in the background of your sig right? the middle guy?
He really doesn't.
Not only was "Death of the New Gods" an absolute abomination to the characters, and total mischaracterization, but it took the death of his lady love for him to use it.
Remember, he's had it his entire life, essentially, and after the one accidental usage when he was young, he never, ever used it again, despite the fact that he has REGULARLY been put in immortal danger.
He's not using the ALE to win the battle, and frankly it's a cop out to say he would since that is really not the intention of the thread I don't think.
Originally posted by Desaad
He really doesn't.Not only was "Death of the New Gods" an absolute abomination to the characters, and total mischaracterization, but it took the death of his lady love for him to use it.
Remember, he's had it his entire life, essentially, and after the one accidental usage when he was young, he never, ever used it again, despite the fact that he has REGULARLY been put in immortal danger.
He's not using the ALE to win the battle, and frankly it's a cop out to say he would since that is really not the intention of the thread I don't think.
Without his discarded godhood (as is the case here) and without the ALE he is a non factor. Also the stips say CIS off. No reason why MM doesn't use the ALE except for his own principles, that qualifies as CIS.
That's retarded, I'm sorry.
The entire POINT of the character is immediately NULLIFIED upon his use of the Anti Life Equation. He's the spirit of freedom, the god of self determination and independence -- using the equation to strip others of that quality goes against everything that he is.
That's the entire point of him having it -- he's the one person in all the universes who would never, ever use it. It's a brilliant, tragic dichotomy.
And Mister Miracle 'without god powers' has gone toe to toe with Superman in a fist fight, and used his intelligence and skills to defeat a group that consisted of Wonder Woman, Obsidian and Fire. So he's hardly some pushover. He's Spiderman with a hell of a lot more toys.
Originally posted by Desaad
That's retarded, I'm sorry.The entire POINT of the character is immediately NULLIFIED upon his use of the Anti Life Equation. He's the spirit of freedom, the god of self determination and independence -- using the equation to strip others of that quality goes against everything that he is.
That's the entire point of him having it -- he's the one person in all the universes who would never, ever use it. It's a brilliant, tragic dichotomy.
And Mister Miracle 'without god powers' has gone toe to toe with Superman in a fist fight, and used his intelligence and skills to defeat a group that consisted of Wonder Woman, Obsidian and Fire. So he's hardly some pushover. He's Spiderman with a hell of a lot more toys.
I know about Miracles agility. I even have the comic where he battles Supes for a little bit, but that was an abberation. His nowhere near that level on average, and would indeed be a non factor in this fight.
Also, I know all about the irony of Miracle possessing the ALE. I also know that he finds the use of it abhorent, that still qualifies as CIS. As in it is a character induced limitation. You may not like it, but is what it is.
When it comes down to it the ALE is a weapon, and using a weapon doesn't fundamentally change you, it is a tool, one that can be abused or used for good will.
Miracle being the god of freedom should liberate him from self imposed restrictions, but because of his upbringing on Apokolips he places more restrictions on his actions than there need to be, it is more of a character flaw than anything else imo.
It's like Batman's argument against using guns, it's nothing but a self imposed delusion, Batman doesn't stop being Batman after he uses a gun.
Originally posted by Desaad
As to this battle, assuming average portrayals for the New Gods (ie, not true form/fully manifested/Final Crisis versions of Darkseid and Granny)...The Eternals take it pretty handily.
Thanos, on average, has the slight edge against Darkseid as he normally 'manifests' on earth, Orion will defeat either Hyperion or Gilgamesh but it won't be a steam role, Sersi is more powerful than Barda, Mister Miracle will I'm sure perform admirably but is outpowered by EVERYONE here and by a significant margin and Granny Goodness, again outside of true form manifestation (like when she defeated the Greek Gods or took over Kraken's body), isn't as powerful as anyone on the Eternals team.
Originally posted by Allankles
I know about Miracles agility. I even have the comic where he battles Supes for a little bit, but that was an abberation. His nowhere near that level on average, and would indeed be a non factor in this fight.Also, I know all about the irony of Miracle possessing the ALE. I also know that he finds the use of it abhorent, that still qualifies as CIS. As in it is a character induced limitation. You may not like it, but is what it is.
When it comes down to it the ALE is a weapon, and using a weapon doesn't fundamentally change you, it is a tool, one that can be abused or used for good will.
Miracle being the god of freedom should liberate him from self imposed restrictions, but because of his upbringing on Apokolips he places more restrictions on his actions than there need to be, it is more of a character flaw than anything else imo.
It's like Batman's argument against using guns, it's nothing but a self imposed delusion, Batman doesn't stop being Batman after he uses a gun.
I think CIS refers to a natural mental limitations that characters impose upon themselves and reduce their ability to use their own skills and powers effectively. In Batmans sake, it wouldnt necessarily make him better if he used a gun and seeing as how his value system is about reform...cis would be spiderman pulling punches against metas
Originally posted by Sin I AM
I think CIS refers to a natural mental limitations that characters impose upon themselves and reduce their ability to use their own skills and powers effectively. In Batmans sake, it wouldnt necessarily make him better if he used a gun and seeing as how his value system is about reform...cis would be spiderman pulling punches against metas
Yeah, I agree about Batman, guns don't improve him. I just used him as an example because of how strict he is about that restriction. I also used him because i know of two desperate scenarios in which he used a gun. Once when he was about to be killed by a parademon and a second time to stop Darkseid from wrecking the multiverse.
My point was that being outclassed and faced with certain death Miracle would use the ALE, at the very least to stop or prevent one of the Eternals from harming him (fatally or otherwise).
As the god of freedom he understands that there is an antithesis to his principles, and has long ago accepted the existence of the ALE.
Originally posted by Allankles
[B]I know about Miracles agility. I even have the comic where he battles Supes for a little bit, but that was an abberation. His nowhere near that level on average, and would indeed be a non factor in this fight.
The fight with Superman was an abberation -- though one that must be counted -- but his battles against other top flight foes (like the team I mentioned above) proves that he IS a player, even when he's limiting himself drastically, and with the raw power of his Mother Box and all the tools at his disposal he is most certainly more than a 'non-factor'. Being an underdog in power is not at all the same as being a non-factor.
Also, I know all about the irony of Miracle possessing the ALE. I also know that he finds the use of it abhorent, that still qualifies as CIS. As in it is a character induced limitation. You may not like it, but is what it is.
It's more than that, and the fact that you're unable to recognize it demonstrates your INABILITY to see it.
It's not just that he finds it abhorrent -- its that it goes against everything that he is, the very fundamental bedrock of his being. Batman did use guns, and has used guns, on multiple occasions. Mister Miracle is the GOD OF FREEDOM and would never use the ultimate tool of REPRESSION as a result. To do so would mean his own death and damnation.
Any rule that asks a character to act so contrary to the fundamentally perpendicular to their purpose shouldn't be followed.
When it comes down to it the ALE is a weapon, and using a weapon doesn't fundamentally change you, it is a tool, one that can be abused or used for good will.
Using the weapon WOULD fundamentally change him. It would change, and destroy, everything that he is.
That's what makes it such an impossibly brilliant addition to the mythos.
Originally posted by Desaad
The fight with Superman was an abberation -- though one that must be counted -- but his battles against other top flight foes (like the team I mentioned above) proves that he IS a player, even when he's limiting himself drastically, and with the raw power of his Mother Box and all the tools at his disposal he is most certainly more than a 'non-factor'. Being an underdog in power is not at all the same as being a non-factor.It's more than that, and the fact that you're unable to recognize it demonstrates your INABILITY to see it.
It's not just that he finds it abhorrent -- its that it goes against everything that he is, the very fundamental bedrock of his being. Batman did use guns, and has used guns, on multiple occasions. Mister Miracle is the GOD OF FREEDOM and would never use the ultimate tool of REPRESSION as a result. To do so would mean his own death and damnation.
Any rule that asks a character to act so contrary to the fundamentally perpendicular to their purpose shouldn't be followed.
Using the weapon WOULD fundamentally change him. It would change, and destroy, everything that he is.
That's what makes it such an impossibly brilliant addition to the mythos.
I think you're taking it too far. Yes the very existence of the ALE disproves the concept of freedom but... the concept of freedom allows for such an implausibility - a concept that disproves its very existence.
Also Miracle is the very total personification of the concept, his knowledge of the ALE would destroy him otherwise i.e. if we go by the idea that using it can destroy him, knowing it would do the same, in fact more totally since knowing is deeper than simply using.
Uttering the equation is no different than picturing it in the mind.
More relevant to my case is how he'd effect its use, it would be no different than using telepathy to stop an assault on his person. Which is why I said that ultimately the ALE is a tool, seeing as it is not an entity or personification but a mathematical equation.
Originally posted by Desaad
Right. In addition, it's worth noting that the technology of the New Gods is significantly greater in power and versatility than that which we have seen of the Eternals.But that has little/nothing to do here. And this matchup was essentially terrible.
A better lineup for the New Gods might have been....
Darkseid
Orion
Lightray
Kalibak
Barda
The OP's original lineup makes things too onesided for team Eternal.
This lineup makes things waaay more interesting.