'Jesus was not the messiah'

Started by red g jacks11 pages

'Jesus was not the messiah'

i've been looking into scripture and religious debate lately and i found this series on youtube

YouTube video
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i think he makes a pretty decent argument that at the very least questions the assumed legitimacy of jesus as the prophet of the earlier jewish scripture.

however i accept that i haven't read the bible front to back and hence must listen to believers who might have more insight than me. so any christians feel free to try to refute the claims, or if u have other prophecies that you think jesus fulfilled feel free to list them for discussion.

It's not hard to find contradictions if you're looking for them, and not hard to reconcile the contradictions if you're a believer. Since the very nature of a contradiction is dependent on interpretation and context, I'm much more comfortable questioning the Jesus myth because of similarities and precursors littered throughout mythology. Much more so than textual debates that may or may not have merit depending on translation and interpretation.

I find it hard to believe that something on youtube is right.

Originally posted by ADarksideJedi
I find it hard to believe that something on youtube is right.

Well, there are videos either way, and in a zero-sum question ("Is Jesus the Messiah"😉 one side has to be right.

But yeah, it kind of flies in the face of reason. It's really youtube comments that are tautologically dumb, not necessarily the videos.

Originally posted by Digi
It's not hard to find contradictions if you're looking for them, and not hard to reconcile the contradictions if you're a believer. Since the very nature of a contradiction is dependent on interpretation and context, I'm much more comfortable questioning the Jesus myth because of similarities and precursors littered throughout mythology. Much more so than textual debates that may or may not have merit depending on translation and interpretation.

Ditto. Well sad. What you stated is pretty much the conflict of almost all theists: if it can be argued, it will.

I like some of the more intelligent atheist arguments against things such as Christianity and Islam. The best way to reason with me is to reason with me. 😐

Originally posted by dadudemon
Ditto. Well sad. What you stated is pretty much the conflict of almost all theists: if it can be argued, it will.

I like some of the more intelligent atheist arguments against things such as Christianity and Islam. The best way to reason with me is to reason with me. 😐

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f80/t533188.html

😱

[/shameless plug]

i see.. i've heard that there are countless mythological figures with many of the same attributes as jesus but never really looked into it too deep. one of the specific ones ive heard of was horus, from the egyptian mythology, but the only answer i've ever received from a believer in regards to this is that these stories about horus were 'not written prior to the new testament' but later adopted and added to the character's legacy.

i do know that the biblical creation myth is from the babylonian story.. and that stories like the flood myth and the tower of bable have other versions in other mythologies..

i'm mostly used to discussing this with christians, and they usually respond well to arguments based on scripture since they take that rather seriously, while any argument attributing credit to another religion or mythology is instantly written off. the main argument that they seem to give for faith in jesus christ over any other form of worship is that jesus fulfilled countless prophecies and made it obvious to those that seek him that he is the real deal.. so this is a claim that i have taken some interest in

personally i like reading the religious scriptures even though i don't believe any of it.. i think spirituality is just recognizing beauty in life and applying poetic interpretations

Originally posted by Digi
Well, there are videos either way, and in a zero-sum question ("Is Jesus the Messiah"😉 one side has to be right.

But yeah, it kind of flies in the face of reason. It's really youtube comments that are tautologically dumb, not necessarily the videos.

Both are dumb,

Re: 'Jesus was not the messiah'

Originally posted by red g jacks
however i accept that i haven't read the bible front to back

Most people don't, even Christians. And it doesn't actually matter as much as you might think. Trying to get a handle on Christian doctrine based on memorizing the Bible is like thinking you can practice law because you know the Bill of Rights.

Originally posted by ADarksideJedi
I find it hard to believe that something on youtube is right.

But a book is fine?

Originally posted by red g jacks
i see.. i've heard that there are countless mythological figures with many of the same attributes as jesus but never really looked into it too deep. one of the specific ones ive heard of was horus, from the egyptian mythology, but the only answer i've ever received from a believer in regards to this is that these stories about horus were 'not written prior to the new testament' but later adopted and added to the character's legacy.

i do know that the biblical creation myth is from the babylonian story.. and that stories like the flood myth and the tower of bable have other versions in other mythologies..

i'm mostly used to discussing this with christians, and they usually respond well to arguments based on scripture since they take that rather seriously, while any argument attributing credit to another religion or mythology is instantly written off. the main argument that they seem to give for faith in jesus christ over any other form of worship is that jesus fulfilled countless prophecies and made it obvious to those that seek him that he is the real deal.. so this is a claim that i have taken some interest in

personally i like reading the religious scriptures even though i don't believe any of it.. i think spirituality is just recognizing beauty in life and applying poetic interpretations

Horus is a good example, and much of it did predate Jesus. A lot of imagery and plot from the "Christmas story" of Jesus' birth was also co-opted. Walking on water and rising from the dead are also popular motifs/stories, along with many Old Testament stories like the flood and Book of Job.

It is popular to dismiss certain myths that were contemporaries of Jesus (Mithra, for example) by saying they adopted Christian aspects, not the other way around. What I can't fathom is how you can have it one way but not the other, with the overwhelmingly most likely scenario is that a LOT of savior myths were all borrowing from each other. Sometimes this was deliberate, as you could placate former followers of one deity-figure by introducing them to similar thematic elements for your particular god or savior.

There's a lot of easily-found mythological scholarship that can put this into concrete terms, which I don't have the time, space, or patience for. Joseph Campbell is a great starting author for this stuff, and is also a personal hero of mine. His works are a great introduction into this idea without being demeaning or laden with a religious agenda. In fact, he manages to cast myths in an amazingly inspiring light, while simultaneously showing how it's silly and limiting to think of them as literal truth.

Christianity, Judaism and Islam as mainstream religions have borrowed the most from the Symerian religions.

Hebrews interpreted/borrowed many of the Sumerian myths - from Adam and Eve, to Eden to great flood..etc. Heaps of other things in the OT are actual Sumerian stories, slightly changed, or in cases of certain prayers and/or hymns completely copied.

This later incorporated into Christianity and Islam.

With this in mind, I think the argument of whether Jesus was a messiah or not are rather trivial.
Real interesting argument would be going back to the Sumerian myths and discussing further possible interpretations...
Actually, that would be very interesting.

Originally posted by Digi
Joseph Campbell is a great starting author for this stuff, and is also a personal hero of mine. His works are a great introduction into this idea without being demeaning or laden with a religious agenda. In fact, he manages to cast myths in an amazingly inspiring light, while simultaneously showing how it's silly and limiting to think of them as literal truth.
sounds good. any specific book of his you'd recommend starting with?

Even books have faults not talking about the bible I believe that more then what I read in other books or youtube videos.

Surely I can't be the only person who's immediate though upon reading the title of this thread was....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OOuWWzP7wl0

Originally posted by red g jacks
sounds good. any specific book of his you'd recommend starting with?

Yeah:
http://www.amazon.com/Hero-Thousand-Faces-Bollingen/dp/1577315936/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1296621204&sr=8-1
...his first, best, and most widely read book. It accurately condenses the entirety of his life's work into one novel, though more nuance can be found in his others.

If you enjoy his ideas, style, and message, once you've digested 2-3 of his books, I'd also highly recommend this:
http://www.amazon.com/Reflections-Art-Living-Campbell-Companion/dp/0060926171/ref=sr_1_9?ie=UTF8&qid=1296621204&sr=8-9
Which is an amazing collection of anecdotes from his life, bits of lectures, excerpts of texts, and stories he told, that are at once inspiring and uplifting in a way self-help books only wish they were. It's a breathtaking collection of wisdom.

Sorry, fanboy rant over. Enjoy, I hope.

Originally posted by Digi
Well, there are videos either way, and in a zero-sum question ("Is Jesus the Messiah"😉 one side has to be right.

But yeah, it kind of flies in the face of reason. It's really youtube comments that are tautologically dumb, not necessarily the videos.

I just added a new word to my vocab today. A word I didn't know before, I know now. Now I know it. 😉

Don't swallow the Kool-Aid of some teachers who believe that the Bible contradicts itself. Mere mortals cannot fully understand it and to believe we can is arrogant at its core.

Originally posted by Darth Truculent
Don't swallow the Kool-Aid of some teachers who believe that the Bible contradicts itself. Mere mortals cannot fully understand it and to believe we can is arrogant at its core.

If you're right, then we simply can't understand it and it's essentially worthless to us as a guide. Presumably, God already knows his laws and such, so the Bible would be solely for our benefit...and why make a text that is inherently incomprehensible to the people it was made for?

Sorry, but your post makes zero sense to me.

Zigi my friend, many scholars, priests and pastors try to understand some of the Bible and interpret it. Wars have been fought over it (Catholism & Protestantism). That's why there are so many denominations of Christianity.

Many believe in the "Big Bang Theory" - can you prove it happened? Nope. You rely on some science that has been proven false. Evolution is the next hot topic - can you prove it? Nope. A chimp is our closest "relative" but why can't human DNA be combatable with monkey? The Soviets tried it in the 30s and failed. I can write a lot more evidence, but I lack the time due to the fact that I have to get back to work.

Rebutall?