'Jesus was not the messiah'

inimalist,

"I am the Alpha, The Omega, The Beginning & The End" - God

God has always existed - Judiasm, Islam & Christianty, three of the world's great religions all say the same thing. God has always existed. He is not some figmantation of human imagination. Miracles cannot be disproven such as Cancer disappearing overnight (which has happened in some cases and doctors can't explain it). The congresswoman who was shot in the head by that wackjob in Arizona should be dead, but she is walking and talking. A 9mm round at point blank range should have killed her, but God spared her life for a purpose only He knows.

It is a good question inimalist, but it is far to complicated for man to understand. The Trinity - God, The Father & The Son are all the same. Even the most knowledgeable scholar in religion cannot fathom It.

so, special pleading then?

Originally posted by Darth Truculent
I'm back Zigi . . .

Long pig makes a very valid point about video documentation. Many historical records from the Roman Empire have confirmed Jesus's miracles. When a powerful culture like the Roman Empire documents this, it cannot be disproven. In the Old Testament when the Jewish Nation finally left Egypt, God's plagues were documented. Those are historical evidence left behind.

What is Christianity's understanding of why the Jewish people believe that Jesus was not the messiah?

Originally posted by inimalist
lulz, how was the creator created /sigh

Originally posted by inimalist
so, special pleading then?

No, not at all. The creator of the universe is eternal. Outside of time. As the other guy said, this means He does not require a creator.

Whatever made the universe must be eternal, since modern cosmology has found that time itself came into existence at the Big Bang. So whatever made the universe must have been outside of time, I.E. eternal.

Originally posted by TacDavey
No, not at all. The creator of the universe is eternal. Outside of time. As the other guy said, this means He does not require a creator.

Whatever made the universe must be eternal, since modern cosmology has found that time itself came into existence at the Big Bang. So whatever made the universe must have been outside of time, I.E. eternal.

well, ok, but then you are introducing a law of "things outside of time need no creator", which is both absurd and non-falsifiable /shrug

Originally posted by inimalist
well, ok, but then you are introducing a law of "things outside of time need no creator", which is both absurd and non-falsifiable /shrug

How so? To say something outside of time needs a creator demands that it have a beginning. But if something has a beginning, then it is inside of time. Being outside of time (eternal) means that there is no beginning nor end. Thus, it not only needs no creator, it CANNOT have one.

thats terrible logic

you are claiming things about a being which you are defining as unknowable

EDIT: your point still doesn't refute the idea that this is special pleading either. If you define everything that happened before the big bang as being outside of time [don't mention this to astrophyscists], the the creation of the universe happened outside of time, because time was a product of that creation (by definition, not created within time) and could thus, by the same logic you use with god, require no creator

Originally posted by inimalist
thats terrible logic

you are claiming things about a being which you are defining as unknowable

EDIT: your point still doesn't refute the idea that this is special pleading either. If you define everything that happened before the big bang as being outside of time [don't mention this to astrophyscists], the the creation of the universe happened outside of time, because time was a product of that creation (by definition, not created within time) and could thus, by the same logic you use with god, require no creator

No, that's not right. It should never be suggested that we can know NOTHING about God. The Bible, for example, tells us lots of things about Him.

I'm glad you brought that up, actually.

There is only two options for what could have caused the universe.

1.) A powerful being with the will and means to create one (God)

or

2.) An eternal set of necessary and sufficient conditions for the creation of a universe. (Everything else)

But it can't be two. Whenever you get all the necessary and sufficient conditions for an event to happen, it will always happen.

For example, the conditions for a spark might be heat, friction, etc etc. Once all those conditions are met, a spark will always take place.

But it you hold 2 to be true, you would have to admit that there was a point causily prior to the universes creation that the conditions for the universe existed, but the universe did not. And this is logically impossible. You are basically claiming that an eternal set of conditions created a temporal effect.

Thus, it has to be 1. A being with the means to create a universe, and the will to create or not create it.

...

I dont understand why 2 is not congruent with an existant universe?

Its like you are saying that God is responsible for the freezing of water, but it could never be possible that water under 0 degrees celcius could not be frozen...

LoLz, I always like the "it's outside our ability to fully understand, so God must have done it" arguments.

Could have very well been an undefined and unexplained amount of matter and/or energy without a will of its own and it just happened. Not cos it wanted or needed; just did.

Originally posted by Robtard
LoLz, I always like the "it's outside our ability to fully understand, so God must have done it" arguments.

Could have very well been an undefined and unexplained amount of matter and/or energy without a will of its own and it just happened. Not cos it wanted or needed; just did.

Actually, my last post was meant to show how that was impossible, but I guess I need to explain it better.

Originally posted by inimalist
...

I dont understand why 2 is not congruent with an existant universe?

Its like you are saying that God is responsible for the freezing of water, but it could never be possible that water under 0 degrees celcius could not be frozen...

I don't get the water example...

If the universe has a beginning, then that means that there had to have been a point causily prior to it's existence that it didn't exist, right?

But whatever created it had to be eternal, right?

That means that if the necessary conditions for it's creation were eternal, then the universe has to be eternal. Otherwise, you have to face the fact that you would be saying that there was a point causily prior to the universes existence that it did not exist, yet the necessary conditions for it's existence did (Since they are eternal). Which is logically impossible. That's why it can't be 2. And if it can't be 2, it has to be 1.

i think where you've gone wrong is by getting hung up on the idea that whatever was around prior to the big bang had to be 'eternal.' time as we know it may have been created in the big bang but that doesn't necessarily suggest anything final about the state prior to. its possible that something could have existed prior to and leading up to the state of singularity, like the universe could have already been created, expanded, and collapsed back in on itself in an infinite regression. or maybe the universe exists in one corner of a larger multiverse and our version of time/space/existence is just one of many. you're setting the standard that 'whatever created time had to be eternal' based on what is essentially philosophical mysticism rather than any actual limitation of time itself.

indeed

I dont see how something existing before the big bang eliminates causality...

So if It is some eternal being who grants miracles to people for no reason at all, why do people worship him? It doesn't increase their chances of getting a miracle.

Originally posted by Darth Truculent
I'm back Zigi . . .

Long pig makes a very valid point about video documentation. Many historical records from the Roman Empire have confirmed Jesus's miracles. When a powerful culture like the Roman Empire documents this, it cannot be disproven. In the Old Testament when the Jewish Nation finally left Egypt, God's plagues were documented. Those are historical evidence left behind.

When Jesus was crucified, the heavy velvet in the Temple was split in two and this was documented as well. Paul was known as the Chief Enforcer of slaughtering early Christians - the very first Darth Vader. It was documented again by the Roman Empire that he was converted by God himself.

So you presume to know exactly what facts are and aren't verifiable about the historical life of Jesus? Have you actually researched this with scholarship or reading valid scholarship on the topic, or are you parroting a few facts that sound true to you?

The short version is, we have enough evidence to reliably claim that Jesus existed, and not nearly enough to confirm anything extranormal about his life and ministry. Claiming otherwise is simply false, and therefore an article of blind faith is involved in believing in his divinity. And, coming from a scientifically illiterate culture with numerous savior and miracle myths already swirling around in it, it's little wonder tha one of them eventually caught on and became bigger than the others.

Originally posted by Darth Truculent
As to your prophecy question - ever hear of the Four Horsemen? It can be argued that the first three are already here: whispers of war (Afghanistan & Iraq), plagues (Bird Flu & AIDS) and strange weather (ie Global Warming).

Far worse wars have happened all throughout history, same with plagues, and you're grasping at straws. Again, science gives us verifiable predictive power. You're giving me vague statements to shoehorn events to your beliefs.

Originally posted by Darth Truculent
As to science's evidence - something cannot be created without being created itself. For example, how do you create a nuclear weapon? A nuclear weapon can't create itself. It has be carefully assembled by man. So how was the universe created and the galaxies?

I'm not a middle school textbook. You're not versed enough on these topics to question them.

Originally posted by red g jacks
i think where you've gone wrong is by getting hung up on the idea that whatever was around prior to the big bang had to be 'eternal.' time as we know it may have been created in the big bang but that doesn't necessarily suggest anything final about the state prior to. its possible that something could have existed prior to and leading up to the state of singularity, like the universe could have already been created, expanded, and collapsed back in on itself in an infinite regression. or maybe the universe exists in one corner of a larger multiverse and our version of time/space/existence is just one of many. you're setting the standard that 'whatever created time had to be eternal' based on what is essentially philosophical mysticism rather than any actual limitation of time itself.

Because if time came into being at the big bang, how can something exist before time, yet still be in time? It can't, because time didn't exist. I'm not understanding how you can claim that something is inside of time before time had even come to be.

You're offering the possibility that the universe is, in fact, eternal. But this has already been refuted by cosmology. It's well known that the universe had a beginning at the Big Bang.

Originally posted by inimalist
indeed

I dont see how something existing before the big bang eliminates causality...

Because to exist before the Big Bang is to exist before time. Which means you are outside of time, which means you are eternal. Something that is eternal has no cause. It has simply always been and will always be.

Originally posted by TacDavey
Something that is eternal has no cause. It has simply always been and will always be.

Originally posted by Mindship
Why couldn't chaotic inflation be eternal?

I'm not sure exactly what chaotic inflation is, but I do know that cosmologists have determined that the universe is not eternal, if that's what you're asking. And that matter, space, and time all came into existence at the Big Bang.

Originally posted by TacDavey
I'm not sure exactly what chaotic inflation is, but I do know that cosmologists have determined that the universe is not eternal, if that's what you're asking. And that matter, space, and time all came into existence at the Big Bang.

Essentially, it proposes a higher dimensional context, something outside the only reality we've ever known. While currently there is no proof other dimensions exist, this can be, theoretically, tested for. Eg, it is hoped the Large Hadron Collider will give us a glimpse of another dimension by checking for missing energy.

Personally, I think God handed the job of our universe to a demiurge.