Whitebeard Pirates vs Konoha
The Whitebeard crew attack the leaf village in place of Pain. The same scenario as the Pain arc axcept with the pirates in place of Pain and Konoha gets a good 2 hours of prep beforehand. Just as in the arc, Naruto will return some time into the attack with the same set up as in the manga.
Which side is victorious?
With two hours prep, Kakashi will be there with his kamui ready. Even Whitebeard can't take a space-warping.
Also, mass genjutsu. Many put to sleep, those able to resist that under heavy illusions, and so on.
Danzo will be brought into the fray and with his Shisui's eye he may be able to turn one of the powerful Whitebeards. Yamanakas too.
Ninja are very much outpowered, but they do not have to fight power to power, they have and use indirect and more cheaty methods. People always forget they have mind-control abilities.
Originally posted by Nephthys
He can do alot of damage to the villiage itself, but can he actually take out the shinobi themselves with that attack? Because it didn't seem to do much to the Marine forces when he ****ed up the island iirc.
In Whitebeard's defense, there were admirals and Giant Vice Admirals there. On top of that, some of the combatants were falling in the cracks.
I don't think anyone is surviving a haki or quake punch in Konoha though.
Originally posted by NemeBro
I don't think you quite understand what I am saying.I am saying Whitebeard can turn Konoha upside down. Without actually being within five hundred meters of it.
Yes, I know this. And I am saying they have ways to deal with him, and they're not likely to want to engage that close to the village itself for that matter.
His ability to punch earthquakes doesn't change that they can use illusion and mental-control abilities to fight him in a far more indirect manner, as well as the odd ability that is a *direct* threat like Kamui.
Originally posted by Q99He could do it from a mile away.
Yes, I know this. And I am saying they have ways to deal with him, and they're not likely to want to engage that close to the village itself for that matter.His ability to punch earthquakes doesn't change that they can use illusion and mental-control abilities to fight him in a far more indirect manner, as well as the odd ability that is a *direct* threat like Kamui.
Jozu could chuck gigantic boulders onto the village that would crush hundreds to thousands of ninja at once.
Marco is pretty much unkillable by the ninja, and faster than all of them.
This is not even taking into account every Whitebeard pirate. Which is admittedly hard to do, since we do not know the specifics of every individual crewmate.
Originally posted by Pyron_Knight
Uh...can't Ace just stroll into town all on his lonesome and incinerate everyone?
No. Genjutsu, kamui, possession, mind control.
Hm, might be possible to slap him with a paralyzing seal too.
NemeBro
He could do it from a mile away.
Ok, and they can also do genjutsu stuff from a significant distance and engage the Whitebeards from more than a mile away.
That's likely what the big nearby forest is for, for engaging enemy from a distance. It's right in the village name even.
Jozu could chuck gigantic boulders onto the village that would crush hundreds to thousands of ninja at once.
Assuming he's not throwing it at the wrong place because the real location is hidden by illusion.
Also I think Tsunade could handle that one, or big teams of Earth-jutsu users working together.
We seem to be stuck in a loop here.
"They have indirect abilities so they don't have to deal with the Whitebeard's power,"
"But the Whitebeards have a lot of power!"
If the power the Whitebeards have cannot be directed or worse gets co-opted, then it's not a win.
Marco is pretty much unkillable by the ninja, and faster than all of them.
He is one of the biggest threats. But even he's not unbeatable- What if Kakashi gets him with Kamui? Even he's not going to survive that.
Fu of Root is alive at this point too. If he (or Ace) burns a straw dummy and suddenly he finds himself in the dummy and Fu turns on the Whitebeards.
Or Danzo could control him with Shisui's eye (though Whitebeard would be the preferred and ultimate target for that). Or he gets caught in some other illusion thanks to Kurenai or one of the others.
This is not even taking into account every Whitebeard pirate. Which is admittedly hard to do, since we do not know the specifics of every individual crewmate.
Fortunately, the rank and file of the Whitebeard pirates didn't appear that badass, Marines and low-level Impel Down prisoners were able to do fine against them.
I think the ninja can handle those, especially with the home turf advantage of Konoha forest.
Originally posted by Bentley
Pleeze, WB's haki alone takes 9/10s of konoha and their fodder ninja...
Haki'd leave the ninja who'd be doing the useful stuff anyway, chunins and above. The ones who actually will have strong levels of genjutsu, possession, etc., or elemental jutsu that'll help mess up the bulk crew (take out the terrain under them and that kind of thing).
Similarly, most of the Whitebeard crew will be taken out by less powerful mass genjutsu like the sleep one used during the Sound invasion.
And even fodder will be setting up traps and so on with the prep time and probably a lot would be kept back in reserve.
Hm, come to think of it Whitebeard really didn't use his royal haki during Marineford for some reason.
Originally posted by Q991. Show me them ever using Genjutsu from over a mile away. Rare is the ninja who can fight from that distance.
Ok, and they can also do genjutsu stuff from a significant distance and engage the Whitebeards from more than a mile away.That's likely what the big nearby forest is for, for engaging enemy from a distance. It's right in the village name even.
Assuming he's not throwing it at the wrong place because the real location is hidden by illusion.
Also I think Tsunade could handle that one, or big teams of Earth-jutsu users working together.
We seem to be stuck in a loop here.
"They have indirect abilities so they don't have to deal with the Whitebeard's power,"
"But the Whitebeards have a lot of power!"If the power the Whitebeards have cannot be directed or worse gets co-opted, then it's not a win.
He is one of the biggest threats. But even he's not unbeatable- What if Kakashi gets him with Kamui? Even he's not going to survive that.
Fu of Root is alive at this point too. If he (or Ace) burns a straw dummy and suddenly he finds himself in the dummy and Fu turns on the Whitebeards.
Or Danzo could control him with Shisui's eye (though Whitebeard would be the preferred and ultimate target for that). Or he gets caught in some other illusion thanks to Kurenai or one of the others.
Fortunately, the rank and file of the Whitebeard pirates didn't appear that badass, Marines and low-level Impel Down prisoners were able to do fine against them.
I think the ninja can handle those, especially with the home turf advantage of Konoha forest.
Speculation.
2. When has Genjutsu ever been used to hide an entire village?
No, Tsunade could not. Tsunade's best strength feat does not begin to compare to Jozu's. Tsunade briefly wielded a four hundred ton tanto. Jozu easily lifted and chucked a million ton iceberg.
Only their admittedly more varied abilities would not help them here.
3. Why do you assume Kakashi can even perceive the speed Marco moves at? Marco has on-panel reacted to and deflected a light attack from Kizaru, making him one of the fastest One Piece characters, and much faster than anyone in Naruto.
I must admit I forget who Fu is.
Shisui's eye is best saved for Whitebeard, assuming Danzo survives the initial attack.
4. Each one is still a Grand Line pirate. The rank and file of Konoha would not even be able to handle Don Krieg, and low level? Buggy was on the first level of Impel Down, most of the thugs were from higher levels. And marines are not always weak either.
Seriously, the level of destructive power Whitebeard alone outputs is too much. With every movement, he was shaking and destroying Marineford, effortlessly.
Root plays the role of Ambush Squad with Kakashi assisting them. Danzo with Izanagi and should be able to survive an attack. All of them except Danzo of course would die the minute discovered but before that happens, they can do some good in taking out bigger threats. Except for Whitebeard of course who they'd have to hit with Shisui's eye in order to stand much chance at all winning.
Originally posted by NemeBro
1. Show me them ever using Genjutsu from over a mile away. Rare is the ninja who can fight from that distance.
They can get closer than a mile before doing it.
The ninja can leave the village to get closer to them, you know. That the surrounded forest is part of the defense is in the name.
2. When has Genjutsu ever been used to hide an entire village?
As long as it's on the pirates, the size of the target doesn't matter much.
Remember the genjutsu trap in the chunin exam that prevented them from getting to the target? That took a mere three genin to do. Anyone trapped in that isn't getting closer to whereever they intend to travel to.
Only their admittedly more varied abilities would not help them here.
Except for genjutsu and possession and so on.
You pointed to using Haki to deal with ninja, what makes you think that that's useful while the Ninja's far greater range of mental affects is not?
It takes one pretty good genjutsu user to affect thousands (Sound invasion sleepy spell).
3. Why do you assume Kakashi can even perceive the speed Marco moves at? Marco has on-panel reacted to and deflected a light attack from Kizaru, making him one of the fastest One Piece characters, and much faster than anyone in Naruto.
Kizaru's attacks have tells, they don't require moving at lightspeed to handle.
Even if you argue on react times, his *body* definitely does not move that crazy fast. Marco was not effectively teleporting around the battlefield orders of magnitude faster than the low-mach speed characters like Luffy. He himself moves at a speed that Kakashi can target.
I must admit I forget who Fu is.
One of Danzo's bodyguards, the one who took over Ao's body in order to destroy his Byakugan.
His ability is, if you kill a scarecrow he makes, then you end up in the dummy and he ends up in your body.
Shisui's eye is best saved for Whitebeard, assuming Danzo survives the initial attack.
What if he does it before they attack?
It's a home field advantage with prep. They don't have to wait for the Pirates to attack first, they can launch pre-emptive strikes in their home territory.
4. Each one is still a Grand Line pirate. The rank and file of Konoha would not even be able to handle Don Krieg, and low level? Buggy was on the first level of Impel Down, most of the thugs were from higher levels. And marines are not always weak either.
I'll point out that strength doesn't affect mental resistance. Luffy easily falls prey to Miss Golden Week's paint, and many of them specifically were affected by Boa's charms.
Not that being stronger than Buggy is all that impressive. A nice Afternoon Tiger from Gai'll still blow away most of the riff-raff, as would big summons. And many of Whitebeard's rank and file crew fell to Haki, so I don't put their odds of shrugging off the mass sleep genjutsu at very hard.
Seriously, the level of destructive power Whitebeard alone outputs is too much.
And again, if the ninja didn't have ways to make that power not be applied against them that'd be decisive, but there's more to the fight than that and repeating that Whitebeard is strong won't change that.
Power only helps if it can be applied. 10 members of Ino's clan sneak up (perhaps with aid of other stealth-jutsu users, like an underground insertion, and under the confusion caused by genjutsu) and take over 10 of the highest officers they can see. They start wrecking havok in high-end One Piece strength level bodies who the crew will be reluctant to face. Ino's dad makes Jozu start rampaging wildly. Marco or Ace kills Fu's dummy and get taken over. Genjutsu users are making pirates see their own comrades as ninja attacking other comrades. Others get paralyzed in place.
Danzo walks in to the middle protected by Izanagi and Shisuis' Whitebeard.
That's something of a best-case but the point is they have a whole toolchest of what to do, stuff that will work against the pirates. "Get quaked, die," is not a situation that they have nothing to do against.
Power must be directed properly before it matters, and if it can be prevented from being directed, it's shear quality will not win a fight.
Originally posted by Q99
Haki'd leave the ninja who'd be doing the useful stuff anyway, chunins and above. The ones who actually will have strong levels of genjutsu, possession, etc., or elemental jutsu that'll help mess up the bulk crew (take out the terrain under them and that kind of thing).Similarly, most of the Whitebeard crew will be taken out by less powerful mass genjutsu like the sleep one used during the Sound invasion.
And even fodder will be setting up traps and so on with the prep time and probably a lot would be kept back in reserve.
Hm, come to think of it Whitebeard really didn't use his royal haki during Marineford for some reason.
Nop. Tsunade has a weak*ss will, she would be koed by royal haki. Power and will power don't always go hand to hand, if WB koes 10 powerful ninjas doing exactly nothing, Konoha's chances are going to be much slimmer from the get to go.