The Gorgon and Omega Red vs Thor in Melee Fight

Started by srankmissingnin117 pages
Originally posted by Tha C-Master
To place Batman in the same park as Spider-Man as speed because they do "relatively similar stuff" that can't be quantified is ridiculous.

Which is the fundamental problem with this thread. Some people, like you, are apparently are comfortable to come up with opinions based on arbitrary distinctions even if those opinions fly in the face of canon and how characters have been portrayed for their entire history. Of course Batman is relatively in the same ball park as Spider-man in terms of speed, "they do relatively similar stuff"... what else do you need to know? If Spider-man doesn't present himself as being significantly faster... why should he be significantly faster? You need to judge a character on the merits of their accomplishments, you can't just decided Spider-man is faster because he got bit by a radio active spider, or Thor is faster because he is a god. That is an absurd opinion that basically enforces a belief that comics don't mater. The opinion of someone who has read every appearance of these character's needs to matter more than someone who has no experience with these characters other than reading a two sentence bio on the back of a Marvel Flare trading card in '92.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Which is the fundamental problem with this thread. Some people, like you, are apparently are comfortable to come up with opinions based on arbitrary distinctions even if those opinions fly in the face of canon and how characters have been portrayed for their entire history. Of course Batman is relatively in the same ball park as Spider-man in terms of speed, [b]"they do relatively similar stuff"... what else do you need to know? If Spider-man doesn't present himself as being significantly faster... why should he be significantly faster? You need to judge a character on the merits of their accomplishments, you can't just decided Spider-man is faster because he got bit by a radio active spider, or Thor is faster because he is a god. That is an absurd opinion that basically enforces a belief that comics don't mater. The opinion of someone who has read every appearance of these character's needs to matter more than someone who has no experience with these characters other than reading a two sentence bio on the back of a Marvel Flare trading card in '92. [/B]
I believe the fundamental problem with the thread is intense feat skewing and member bias towards certain characters. How is it that every thread these characters get amped to fighting people way above where they are? Fighting Wonder Woman? Beating Thor? That's too much for me. You need logic as well.

While I do believe they could snag some wins, but unfortunately for many members here, feat skewing is a bad way to represent a character because some characters will have more feats, or some members will pick and choose feats they like for their character.

Batman hasn't done Spider-Man's best feats, and in comics, speed is a relative thing. Do you know if he was moving 10mph? 20 mph when he did those feats? No. Using such overdone feats like bullet and laser dodging (bs) presents a problem because every writer has a character do them.

Spider-man for one is superhumanly fast. Super powerful muscles for great bursts of speed, also faster and better reflexes and has been described in bios as Superhuman, stats as superhuman, and in comics as superhuman. I use all of everything instead of using just feats and skewing things for certain characters.

Same point was made about strenghth. Spider-Man has lifted well over 10 tons, closer to 100. Do I list him as class 100? No, because characterization comes into play and the suspension of disbelief has to be dropped. I think he may be in the 10-20 range and can hit that high (closer to 100) when push comes to shove, but some members (like yourself) will quickly say he is in the 10 ton range, but when it comes to Wolverine related characters they are in the multiton range and the 100 ton range, just because? No.

Spider-man is pretty much the embodiment of movement and grace of movement in comics, especially Marvel. Not running speed (like Flash) but movement, it is in his characterization to be extremely fast and move well, he does things all the time that Batman only does occasionally and with a lot less effort. So, that is presentation. Spider-Man isn't just as fast as a human, he's much faster.

Oh, and I don't believe in giving someone a win because "they are xxx", hence my problem with MK and Kratos fanboys, so I don't know where you pulled that one from.

Your logic is like saying since Spider-Man has taken a hit from the Hulk before, he is on the same relative durability level as Wolverine. It's absurd. This is a logical debate, if we're going to say "well this has happened like this, so it will happen like this under KMC rules"... well that won't work, and what is the point of having a debate in the first place?

Originally posted by jinzin
Again it's easy to hit someone that's basically just pushing into you, your opponent's range, speed and reflexes become irrelivent at that point because they're basically connected to you. Why do you need something this simple explained to you?
A lot easier to punch Silva when you're on the ground grappling than it is while he's standing at range using his attributes.

Pushing into Thor? What the f*ck are you talking about? I don’t think you’re seeing the scan I am. Hyperion speeds towards Thor, and uses a flying blitz. Look at the angle of their bodies, Hyperion would have cleared Thor if not struck.

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/DefeatsHyperion5.jpg

Irrelevant? Lol. You don’t know what you’re talking about. Superman types don’t always operate in “super speed” mode, but when they do, the world moves in a slower pace from what I can tell. A pissed off Hyperion should be able to dodge a head butt from Thor while their hugging if the Odinson was nearly as slow as you guys claim him to be. For Thor to regain himself, swing his hammer, and strike Hyperion in a moment before Hyperion even clears Thor is a greater speed feat than anything I’ve seen Logan do. You know, since Hyperion has nanosecond combat speed and we know how much the opposing side loves that logic. 🙂

Originally posted by jinzin
Except that he wasn't. Just because he was ordered to kill someone doesn't dictate bloodlust. You're abusing the term. He flat out states he's hardly giving it his best so that makes you wrong right there. Again obvious crap that shouldn't have to be explained to a grown man.

He wanted Thor dead. He would do anything short of killing needlessly killing innocent people to do it. The following scene would be an indication of Gladiator fighting to the best of his capabilities if the previous scenes before the statement weren’t. That was the entire point of his claim.

Originally posted by jinzin
No. Stating that you haven't used your best doesn't automatically dictate that you're about to. If Gladiator followed up that statement with something more conclusive maybe you would have a point. He didn't, and you don't.
Thor got blitzed anyways so it really doesn't matter.

facepalm Stop being dense. Read the scene. That was clearly an indication of Gladiator using his best trump card against Thor, which would be his speed.

Gladiator wanted Thor dead. He wanted it so bad, he was nearly fanatical. The only time Gladiator even showed any remorse was when he slammed into a semi transforming Thor and said he was saddened to kill Thor as he was once an ally.

Die

You can tell by the smile on his face how non devoted he was:

The nail in the coffin:

I did my best but he was too strong.

So…..GTFO. 🙂

*Sigh* Of course it matters. Swinging his hammer twice before a f*cking trans light character covers a few feet of distance is more impressive than anything I’ve seen Logan do. This double standard that is being used is silly.

Originally posted by jinzin
Just because you have a raging boner for Thor doesn't mean you need to insult me, srank, or any other members on the forums who don't share you're obvious bias. Thor being blitzed by Glads moving slower than falling debris or the speed of sound is not a feat outside of Wolverine's. Don't know who you think your kidding.
I'm sorry that what happened and what was stated on panel doesn't coincide with your interpretations.

baka Me calling you out on your stupidity is bothering you? Fine. Stop making such stupid arguments. 🙂

Oh wait, there you go again.

Originally posted by jinzin
Except that it may not be.
Depends on how you want to view it.
If you interpret it under your view, it's a feat that's heavily outside the norm of Thor's career.... HEAVILY.
If you interpret it under mine, it's a feat that's still impressive but far more in line with Thor's appearances...

There is no if or buts regarding the feat. Trying to skewer or spin it into something else to downplay it because it blows anything Logan has out of the water is not going to fly with me.

WHY DO YOU REFUSE TO READ?

http://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af17/RageOfOlympus/Thor/ReactsMicroSecond.jpg

Then, in the space of a few microseconds before the zooming hammer can strike, the mighty Thor unleashes a senses-staggering blow.

This not my opinion. There is no ambiguity. It’s all right there on panel.

Originally posted by jinzin
"Notice how my theories in line with the facts, and yours isn't? That is because I adapt my theories to suit facts, and you twist facts to suit theories"

crylaugh

Originally posted by jinzin
😂
This isn't a comic book so comic book evidence doesn't count.

Because that’s exactly what I said. Thor had to be toned down in some way shape or form for their to be a fight. It’s simply how comics work. It’s happened to everyone from Flash to Superman.

Originally posted by jinzin
As I said before, at the Marvel editorial staff Wolverine cuts Thor in canon, out of canon, and everything in between.

It is cannon. I’m not arguing that it’s not or that it isn’t admissible, but you’re basing Thor’s capabilities and limitations purely on one appearance. It’s asinine. That one issue does not take precedence over everything else shown regarding Thor.

Originally posted by jinzin
So you're wrong. I honestly don't think Gorgon or Wolverine can slice and dice Thor to pieces, nor was it MY argument that a sword would be tossed through Thor's head so stop generalizing my argument and putting words into my mouth to suit yourself.

I’m pretty sure you said Gorgon could walk up and stab/slice Thor. IIRC, you even said Omega Red can use his tentacles to stab Thor. If it wasn’t you who claimed the sword through the head throw, it must have been Skrank or some other midget lover.

Originally posted by jinzin
Wolverine's claws, and the like is CLEARLY on another level than most other bladed weaponry. Even if Destroyer's as durable as Adamantium Beta, or 1st grade Adamantium it doesn't mean those spikes are of the same level of cutting effeciency. You're comparing apples and oranges all over again.

😬 Logan’s claws have a sharper edge. The Destroyer armor is however capable of applying far more force behind it’s attacks.

You want showings of piercing resistance from sharp edges? Fine. Pay attention.

Takes a full swing from Harokin’s axe to the face, and is completely unharmed.
http://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af17/RageOfOlympus/Thor/BulletsandBladesUseless6.jpg

The blades of various Asgardians shatter in a battle against Thor.
http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy73/R-O-G/Thor/DefeatsAsgard20.jpg

Magically enchanted Wolves cannot penetrate Thor’s skin.
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/MagicWolves2.jpg

A maddened Ulik’s cannot penetrate Thor’s skin.
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/RagnarokThor26.jpg

Volstagg, the lion of Asgard, swings an axe, and it simply breaks against Thor’s chest.
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/RagnarokThor34.jpg

Withstands the claws of Karnivor.
http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy73/R-O-G/Thor/DefeatsKarnivor2.jpg
http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy73/R-O-G/Thor/DefeatsKarnivor3.jpg
Note: Karnivor possesses enough strength and claws sharp enough to reduce the armor of the High Evolutionary himself to shreds.
http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy73/R-O-G/Thor/DefeatsKarnivor1.jpg

Catches the blade of a significantly amped Mogul in mid swing and is completely unharmed.
http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy73/R-O-G/Thor/BladeMogulUnharmed1.jpg
http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy73/R-O-G/Thor/BladeMogulUnharmed2.jpg

Thor takes a swing from Ares axe to his exposed throat/face - while weakened and nearly exhausted.
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/AresAxeUnharmed.jpg

Shrugs off a blow from Tyr’s spike laced mace to his chest.
http://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af17/RageOfOlympus/Thor/DefeatsTyr2.jpg

Ares strikes Thor repeatedly with his spike laced mace and Thor is for the most part unharmed.
http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy73/R-O-G/Thor/DefeatsAresandPluto1.jpg
http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy73/R-O-G/Thor/DefeatsAresandPluto2.jpg

He then takes a slash from Pluto's axe without any visible damage.
http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy73/R-O-G/Thor/DefeatsAresandPluto7.jpg

Withstands the attacks of Hrinmeer and his magically enchanted Flame sword unharmed.
http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy73/R-O-G/Thor/ThorvsTheFlame16.jpg
http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy73/R-O-G/Thor/ThorvsTheFlame17.jpg

He does so again.
http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy73/R-O-G/Thor/ThorvsTheFlame19.jpg
http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy73/R-O-G/Thor/ThorvsTheFlame20.jpg

Withstands a slash from the God Killer Super Skrull and her Stormbreaker Axe across the chest without a scratch.
http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy73/R-O-G/Thor/ThorvsSuperGodSkrull12.jpg

Thor withstands Perrikus’ scythe unharmed, and his flesh piercing darts. Apparently even Odin succumbed to them.
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/ThorvsPerrikus3.jpg
Note: To make this even more impressive, Perrikus was even able to slash Mjolnir in half -as ridiculous as it sounds- with his scythe.
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/ThorvsPerrikus4.jpg

Withstands attacks from his scythe unharmed once again, and this Perrikus is even stronger than before.
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/King%20Thor/DefeatsPerrikus4.jpg

Bloodaxe pounds away with his axe continuously on a depowered Masterson Thor’s face, and although his receives a bruise from the blunt force damage, he is otherwise unharmed.
http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy73/R-O-G/Thor/MastersonThorvsBloodaxe8.jpg
http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy73/R-O-G/Thor/MastersonThorvsBloodaxe9.jpg

Withstands an onslaught of attacks from the Disir.
http://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af17/RageOfOlympus/Thor/Disir1.jpg
http://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af17/RageOfOlympus/Thor/Disir2.jpg
http://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af17/RageOfOlympus/Thor/Disir3.jpg
Note: The Disir are extremely powerful. One of their swords was capable of slicing through Hela easily.
http://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af17/RageOfOlympus/Thor/Disir4.jpg

Although his noticeably injured, Thor withstands a direct slash from an amped Hela wielding the Twilight Sword itself.
http://i1199.photobucket.com/albums/aa469/R-O-O/Thor/ThorvsHela8.jpg

Tell me why those feats don’t count?

I'm sure someone will argue Gorgon will slice Thor up because of the time Logan was able to do –non significant- damage to Thor. Lulz, whatever.

Originally posted by jinzin
Because someone who wasn't Wolverine didn't cut Thor with a different piece of weaponry doesn't mean Wolverine can't. You would need evidence to prove something like that, and that evidence doesn't exist.

😬

I don’t think Logan should cut Thor –not a higher end version- but I wouldn’t shocked if he could. At the very least admit that the sole reason he would be able to do so in any significant manner -which he didn’t do in their fight- would be the solely because his Wolverine or some other similar plot drive. Significant damage seems to be your stance.

Originally posted by jinzin
All the EVIDENCE actually points to the opposite.
Wolverine cutting beings like Thanos, Herc, WWH, and Nafaria.
Wolverine cutting Thor himself multiple times. You ignoring such a large amount of evidence is ludicrous to say the least. The fact that Hercules is deathly afraid of Logan's claws is enough to suggest that he'd be able to cut Thor. You're just acting like a child right now.... or like one of these guys 😕

I don’t want to get into the characters specifically because it doesn’t matter but: Thanos was cut even by bone claw Wolverine, World War Hulk has shitty durability, Hercules proves little, and the Nefaria scene just didn’t make sense because the last time I remember seeing him, he was purely ionic energy and not flesh. Frankly, these scenes convince me of my stance further.

I’ve made my stance clear. Long before this thread even. Can Wolverine cut Thor? On a day to day basis? Sure, I’m okay with that. But the moment we start delving into the higher showings of Thor, superficial damage is his best hope. Anyone arguing more than that, and I claim bull.

Originally posted by jinzin
"Two of which your Pro-Thor feats display the opposite"?
Yeah exactly two of which they display the opposite of your argument...

Honeslty if you can't even try and twist my words around without attacking yourself in the process, there's no need for you to criticize my interpretation of things.

The opposite.

Lol, what?

Originally posted by jinzin
Because the panel clearly suggests Heimdall was thrusting his sword as a defensive measure to the strike. It again isn't something that needs to be explained to a grown man. The fact that Heimdall was attempting to block the hammer strike discredits the notion that Thor was moving too fast for him right off the bat.

If the sword thrust was something Heimdall did in a direct attempt to block Thor’s attack, you’d have a point. If.

Originally posted by jinzin
I don't accept that he's a speedster in combat. You think I don't know anything about Thor because I think he's slower than Wolverine?

Did I not say that Thor is not a speedster in combat (Not by my definition of the term)? Yes I did.

No, I didn’t say you don’t know anything about Thor. I said you don’t know much about Thor.

Originally posted by jinzin
And yet all the proof you're ATTEMPTING to insist here would suggest Thor's a speedster in combat capable of nanosecond punches... you think Thor can throw punches at light speed?
Do you think Thor can throw 250,000 punches in one second?

facepalmx2

Oh, this is grand and just desperate. Thor has high end feats. Said high end feats place his capabilities extremely high, far beyond Logans. So you need to resort to labeling them in such a manner.

If doing the math regarding Thor’s high end feats means he can punch at 10 billion times every pictosecond, then you’re free to use the feats. I don’t give a shit. It doesn’t change anything. That won’t save you out of admitting Thor’s superiority.

Thor’s feats > Logan’s feats

This has been established time and again. Putting words in my mouth in an attempt to make me shy away from his feats won’t work. Not. At. All.

Once again: crylaugh

Originally posted by jinzin
The fact that I don't means I don't know anything about Thor? That couldn't be any further from the truth. Anyone with even a passing familiarity of Thor's performances can attest to his typically average speed in combat.

Once again, your reading comprehension fails.

Why are we even mentioning Thor’s average here? Your side has made it abundantly clear that you have no problem using Thor’s lowest showings ever. The fact that I’m using the feats from the other end of the spectrum suddenly changes things?

You even mentioned the bullet scene. GTFO.

Originally posted by jinzin
Being successfully blitzed by Hyperion is not a speed feat.

That wasn’t a blitz. And it was an impressive speed feat. More impressive than anything Logan has done from what I’ve seen. I already addressed it at the top.

Originally posted by jinzin
Peak humans can hit Wolverine in combat. I fail to see the problem here. We've seen guys like Cap, DD, and even Falcon bounce circles around the Hulk, Wrecker, Absorbing Man... Thor? Not so much.

😖igh:

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/ThorvsWreckingCrew14.jpg
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/ThorvsWreckingCrew15.jpg
….Thou art but a petty annoyance!

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/JuggernautvsThor6.jpg
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/JuggernautvsThor7.jpg
Tis a blow which I can easily evade! My patience is at an end! No longer shall I suffer the indignities of thy taunting tongue or savage fists!

http://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af17/RageOfOlympus/Thor/ThorvsAbsorbingMan31.jpg
http://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af17/RageOfOlympus/Thor/ThorvsAbsorbingMan32.jpg
http://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af17/RageOfOlympus/Thor/ThorvsAbsorbingMan34.jpg
How can I fight 'Im? He's everywhere at once!!

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/DodgesThing.jpg
Huh? How’dja dodge that haymaker?

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/hulkthor1fight10.jpg
Huh??! Where did he go?

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/hulkthor1fight8.jpg
I must move with blinding speed. Though there may be some question about which of us is the stronger….There can be no doubt as to who has the greater speed!

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/ThorvsWarlockandSilverSurfer6.jpg
He moves like the lightning he commands, much quicker than I remembered.

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/Thorspeed1.jpg
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/Thorspeed2.jpg
His speed, his anger, are beyond comprehension. I cannot stop him! I cannot touch him!

Now, let’s look at the more typical speed feats which are superior to Logan’s:

Thor is a blur when he carves a giant trench in a mountainside mere moments before a city is consumed in lava.
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/SuperSpeed.jpg

Digs a trench around a very large crowd before anyone could escape. Notice how Quicksilver begins running before Thor starts creating the trench, and is trapped like everybody else.
http://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af17/RageOfOlympus/Thor/CreatesTrench1.jpg
http://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af17/RageOfOlympus/Thor/CreatesTrench2.jpg
http://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af17/RageOfOlympus/Thor/CreatesTrench3.jpg

Illustrates his impressive reaction time once more when he saves Barlow from the Cobalt Cannon's blast with a split seconds to spare.
http://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af17/RageOfOlympus/Thor/ReactsSplitSecond.jpg

Easily dodges and outraces a psychic based Phoenix blast at point blank range.
http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy73/R-O-G/Thor/ReactsPhoenixBlast1.jpg
http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy73/R-O-G/Thor/ReactsPhoenixBlast2.jpg

Easily dodges a possessed Mjolnir unexpectedly zooming in on his head.
http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy73/R-O-G/Thor/ReactsMjolnirDodge2.jpg
http://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af17/RageOfOlympus/Thor/ReactsMjolnirDodge.jpg

Shows impressive reflexes and speed when he tosses a possessed Mjolnir across a room and catches it a moment before it hits an innocent person.
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/CatchesMjolnir.jpg

In an amazing display of speed Thor manages to intercept Cobra's poison darts within a split-second before they hit Jane. The aforementioned darts were fired before Thor was even inside the room.
http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy73/R-O-G/Thor/ReactsCobra1.jpg
http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy73/R-O-G/Thor/ReactsCobra1.jpg

In the space of one and one fifth of a second, is able to fly down and strike the pavement creating a shockwave that diverts a truck.
http://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af17/RageOfOlympus/Thor/CreatesShockwave.jpg

Strikes an opponent in between microseconds.
http://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af17/RageOfOlympus/Thor/ReactsMicroSecond.jpg

Spins his entire body at twice the speed of light.
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/SpinsMjolnir2xlight.jpg

While groggy -from being fused with the ground- Thor is able to block a telepathic blast from the Phoenix. His arms are at his side even after the blast was fired.
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e139/RageOfTheGod/Thor/DefeatsRachelPhoenix2.jpg
Note: The fact that telepathy and the speed of thought have been stated to be as fast or even faster than light on different occasions -it is even noted as instantaneous here- would suggest that this is a showing of faster than light reflexes.

Thor engages in combat with Skuttlebutt, dodging and attacking while they were traveling at speeds far faster than light.
http://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af17/RageOfOlympus/Thor/FasterThanLight1.jpg
http://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af17/RageOfOlympus/Thor/FasterThanLight2.jpg
http://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af17/RageOfOlympus/Thor/FasterThanLight3.jpg
http://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af17/RageOfOlympus/Thor/FasterThanLight4.jpg

Now what have we learned today kids? Oh yes, Thor’s speed/combat effectiveness/whatever is much greater than Jinzin gives him credit.

Let me tell you why the new argument you’re so keen on using, fails. This majority thing that you’ve been mentioning. 95% of the time, the Thor that we do see is in no way, shape or form, a reflection of what Thor is capable of or his limitations. As silly as it sounds, Thor at his core enjoys battling, he enjoys a challenge. The strength, speed, power, and even versatility that you see most of the time? It’s nothing compared to what he can do when there’s real shit on the line or he gets pushed over the edge. Not even close.

Writers have actually given a reason why Thor is able to jump up in levels when his pushed over the edge or the stakes are extremely high. He like Superman etc. can go from getting their asses kicked despite seemingly using all of their resources, to kicking ass in the very same comic.

Writer’s have actually given us a reason why Thor fluctuates much of the time. He holds back. A lot This idea dates back to his very creation under Lee and Kirby. It would be reflexive at this point:

And since I know how much you value this stuff:

🙂

Hell, even Thor’s own description of his power can’t be trusted. His thought bubbles have been directly contradicted before describing the limitations of his power. So even if Thor did admit Logan was faster than him, the fact that he has time to bend down, grab his ankle and toss him which is a contradiction isn’t actually one. 😉 Just saying. To make matters worse, Thor was quite clearly holding back.

Originally posted by jinzin
We've seen these characters keep up with Spiderman in combat... Thor? Not so much.

Referencing Masterson? K. Sooner or later, I’m going to start using the tactic that you’ve adapted. Downplaying the opposing character. It will be extremely fun.

Originally posted by jinzin
Calling Thor peak human in combat speed isn't ignorance it's an assessment made on the majority of Thor's appearances.

facepalmx3

You never disappoint.

Originally posted by jinzin
Trying to pass Thor off as some superspeester in combat is beyond ludicrous and I'm not the only one who thinks so. But against YOUR version of Thor, it would be a non-fight, I'll give you that much.

😂 To say so much, and mean so little. It’s a reoccurring talent in Wolverine fans from what I can see.

Like I said:
You guys ignore or try to invalidate feats. You guys have to resort to this tactic because if you don’t, it’s really not a fight at all.

If posting Thor’s superior feats somehow make him a speedster in combat, then fine. You can Strawman all you want.

Originally posted by jinzin
I've actually suggested several alternatives all of which are in line with the comic, characters, and logic.
But you can feel free to ignore them as you already have.

I like that. I like that you can post non cannon shit with such confidence.

Originally posted by jinzin
Clearly? Because it was attested to by the narrative? Because Thor was nursing his back just like his ribs? Because when they decided to emphasize Thor's wounds it was the puncture holes in his back and not his rib scratche- oh wait!

Thor said “ARGHHH”. That is not a sign of pain or surprise.

facepalmx4

Haha, a contradiction within the comic (The second one by the way) doesn’t somehow change what happened. Logan clearly used his claws to stab Thor in the back. And as you may have not noticed, the emphasizes on the ribs is the anomaly. For some reason, that spot was more badly injured than others.

Originally posted by jinzin
Yeah, again there's nothing clear about it. At all. If Wolverine stabbed him then the following panels art depiction makes no sense.
You don't need to attempt to insult me because you can't think up a good argument. 😉

Why, because Thor wasn’t bleeding gushes of blood like you think he should? GTFO.

This panel utterly destroys the moronic notion that every other attack was only a graze so it has to be invalid.

You want another hug? I call them how I see them.

Originally posted by jinzin
For "some reason" exactly... you can't logically explain why his ribs would be more concerning than being stabbed in the back because it doesn't make sense.. yet you call me a moron for making a theory that makes sense OF the panels? Clearly you have some issues.

facepalmx5

Like I said, the ribs were the anomaly. Thor got slashed on the face, the chest, the ribs, and the back. The damage on the ribs was the one which was emphasized for no apparent reason.

Originally posted by jinzin
It doesn't "completely disprove" anything... it may be evidence in favor of your argument but in terms of proof it's only suggestive, nothing conclusive to call hard evidence there as your bewildered face would suggest.

😂

Midget Lover: Wolverine didn’t stab Thor.

Logic: Based on what?

Midget Lover: Because he landed and his claws were retracted.

Logic: Buuuuutttt in the previous two pages Logan was tossed then rocked and in both instances, his claws were retracted when he landed.

Midget Lover: Not conclusive. dur

In conclusion? Thor > Wolverine. His far beyond Wolverine in regards to strength, power, versatility, and durability. He also has the superior speed feats.

You may not like it, you may whine about it, ignore/spin/refuse to admit it, but that's the case.

So....GTFO.

Thor beats the crap out of Omega Red and Gorgon. Ground and pound, rinse and repeat if you think they're faster than him.

Lol, this monster won't end.

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
I believe the fundamental problem with the thread is intense feat skewing and member bias towards certain characters. How is it that every thread these characters get amped to fighting people way above where they are? Fighting Wonder Woman? Beating Thor? That's too much for me. You need logic as well.

While I do believe they could snag some wins, but unfortunately for many members here, feat skewing is a bad way to represent a character because some characters will have more feats, or some members will pick and choose feats they like for their character.

Batman hasn't done Spider-Man's best feats, and in comics, speed is a relative thing. Do you know if he was moving 10mph? 20 mph when he did those feats? No. Using such overdone feats like bullet and laser dodging (bs) presents a problem because every writer has a character do them.

Spider-man for one is superhumanly fast. Super powerful muscles for great bursts of speed, also faster and better reflexes and has been described in bios as Superhuman, stats as superhuman, and in comics as superhuman. I use all of everything instead of using just feats and skewing things for certain characters.

Same point was made about strenghth. Spider-Man has lifted well over 10 tons, closer to 100. Do I list him as class 100? No, because characterization comes into play and the suspension of disbelief has to be dropped. I think he may be in the 10-20 range and can hit that high (closer to 100) when push comes to shove, but some members (like yourself) will quickly say he is in the 10 ton range, but when it comes to Wolverine related characters they are in the multiton range and the 100 ton range, just because? No.

Spider-man is pretty much the embodiment of movement and grace of movement in comics, especially Marvel. Not running speed (like Flash) but movement, it is in his characterization to be extremely fast and move well, he does things all the time that Batman only does occasionally and with a lot less effort. So, that is presentation. Spider-Man isn't just as fast as a human, he's much faster.

Oh, and I don't believe in giving someone a win because "they are xxx", hence my problem with MK and Kratos fanboys, so I don't know where you pulled that one from.

Your logic is like saying since Spider-Man has taken a hit from the Hulk before, he is on the same relative durability level as Wolverine. It's absurd. This is a logical debate, if we're going to say "well this has happened like this, so it will happen like this under KMC rules"... well that won't work, and what is the point of having a debate in the first place?

None of those comparisons really ring true. Spider-man's class 100 feats are the outlier, they run in direct opposition to his standard operating levels, the way his strength is portrayed the vast majority of the times. Are Batman or Daredevil's speed feats the would place them in same ball park of speed as Spider-man the outlier? No. Are they even rare? No. Rarely an issue goes by where Daredevil or Captain America, or Nightwing or Batman or Iron Fist or Shang-Chi or Batgirl aren't seen replicated a feat of speed or agility common for Spider-man. It's not rare isolated occurrences, it is the middle of the road, average work day for street level characters. It's not like they are getting shot every week and then once every hundred issues they dance around machine gun fire from multiple targets. Who are you to decide where the line between superhuman and peak human should rationally be drawn? The speed of a peak human is completely theoretical, and line between superhuman is a completely arbitrary distinction. There is no such thing as peak human, no one in the history of the world has ever plateaued and could no longer improve, Marvel and DC decided what they believe is representative of peak human speed, and based on feats it is right with in spiting distance of Spider-man. Batman and Daredevil have their faces pressed up against the glass ceiling... and they are staring right into the eyes of Spider-man who is laying face down on the other end. Maybe that isn't how things "should be," but it's how things are portrayed... and how things are portrayed is how things are.

After a dozen examples of narrative along the lines of "I snapped my head back at the last minute, if I hadn't that blow would of have killed me!" and "I rolled with that attack at the last minute, if I had been a second slower, it would have killed me!" most people can extrapolate how streets survive being "hit" by bricks without it needing to be stated each and every time. After the 10th time you read something like that, subsequent writers largely assumes you've figured out it's a blanket statement that applies to all future examples without you saying "Oh well... I guess Captain America has class 100 durability now."

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
None of those comparisons really ring true. Spider-man's class 100 feats are the outlier, they run in direct opposition to his standard operating levels, the way his strength is portrayed the vast majority of the times. Are Batman or Daredevil's speed feats the would place them in same ball park of speed as Spider-man the outlier? No. Are they even rare? No. Rarely an issue goes by where Daredevil or Captain America, or Nightwing or Batman or Iron Fist or Shang-Chi or Batgirl aren't seen replicated a feat of speed or agility common for Spider-man. It's not rare isolated occurrences, it is the middle of the road, average work day for street level characters. It's not like they are getting shot every week and then once every hundred issues they dance around machine gun fire from multiple targets. Who are you to decide where the line between superhuman and peak human should rationally be drawn? The speed of a peak human is completely theoretical, and line between superhuman is a completely arbitrary distinction. There is no such thing as peak human, no one in the history of the world has ever plateaued and could no longer improve, Marvel and DC decided what they believe is representative of peak human speed, and based on feats it is right with in spiting distance of Spider-man. Batman and Daredevil have their faces pressed up against the glass ceiling... and they are staring right into the eyes of Spider-man who is laying face down on the other end. Maybe that isn't how things "should be," but it's how things are portrayed... and how things are portrayed is how things are.

After a dozen examples of narrative along the lines of "I snapped my head back at the last minute, if I hadn't that blow would of have killed me!" and "I rolled with that attack at the last minute, if I had been a second slower, it would have killed me!" most people can extrapolate how streets survive being "hit" by bricks without it needing to be stated each and every time. After the 10th time you read something like that, subsequent writers largely assumes you've figured out it's a blanket statement that applies to all future examples without you saying "Oh well... I guess Captain America has class 100 durability now."

Yea, but Spider-Man never uses *all* of his strength because he holds back, part of his character and all. You know, characterization.

They don't operate a peak levels at all times at least Spider-Man doesn't, but on KMC they do in battles, that is the difference.

Spider-Man dodges everything at the last minute, it's dramatic effect. Using one or two examples to go against a history is like Wolverine saying Spider-Man can snap his neck. Not valid. At their peak levels, Thor is in another ball game. Spider-Man's peak levels are beyond human, hell his normal levels are.

Either way Spider-Man soloes this thread. Wolverine got tossed. 😖hifty:

Oh Masterson, you could from being a total kick ass badass to a whiny incompetent b*tch at the drop of the hat.

When I was a kid, I use to think his powers were directly related to his confidence levels.

Don't make excuses cause your boy lost.

Street levelers and low metas are Thor kryptonite. 😛

My boy? Thor's my boy. Masterson.....well I really liked the character, but unlike Sif, you can't replace Thor in my heart just because you have a hammer and a winged helmet. The sl*t. ahuh

Power wise....I'm not really sure where to place Masterson. There was a fluctuation in literally the first issue where he took over the title.

Cash cows are Thor's kryptonite.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
My boy? Thor's my boy. Masterson.....well I really liked the character, but unlike Sif, you can't replace Thor in my heart just because you have a hammer and a winged helmet. The sl*t. ahuh

Power wise....I'm not really sure where to place Masterson. There was a fluctuation in literally the first issue where he took over the title.

Cash cows are Thor's kryptonite.

Well DC has Batman, they're every comics kryptonite. Unfortunately people read the comics and apply that here forgetting that the reason they do what they do is because they are cash cows.

Ssshhhh, you'll ruin the illusion some posters have created.

Anyways...I've lost interest in this thread. I think it'll be easier to just do a battle zone.

On the actual match, or on a specific point?

Batman and Daredevil have their faces pressed up against the glass ceiling... and they are staring right into the eyes of Spider-man who is laying face down on the other end. Maybe that isn't how things "should be," but it's how things are portrayed... and how things are portrayed is how things are.

I lol'd.

Makes it sound like they are trying to press lips with each other with a ceiling window between them. 😛

I skimmed that post, but at least he said they were on different levels. The kidder. 😛

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Well DC has Batman, they're every comics kryptonite. Unfortunately people read the comics and apply that here forgetting that the reason they do what they do is because they are cash cows.

Prove it. uhuh

Originally posted by CosmicComet
Prove it. uhuh
It's all over the thread.

And we all know Wolverine beats Kratos. 😛