Originally posted by -Pr-
Gail Simone said Diana wasn't as strong as Superman... People lost their minds... Not that it matters...Kal did say it was "toe-to-toe" though.
Far enough.
Some writers portray them being equals, others imply or give Supes a slight edge.
The fact of the matter is that Captain Marvel is more of a peer to strength to Superman than Wonder Woman is, and I really don't see how that can be disputed.
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Far enough.Some writers portray them being equals, others imply or give Supes a slight edge.
The fact of the matter is that Captain Marvel is more of a peer to strength to Superman than Wonder Woman is, and I really don't see how that can be disputed.
Oh, that's true imo.
Diana has other abilities which make her a tough opponent for Kal, like her speed, skill and the like. In terms of pure strength, though, if people are going to make the "Captain Marvel = Superman" argument, then by extension it would mean that Captain Marvel > Wonder Woman, at least strength wise.
Originally posted by Comics Queen
What people already know? You didn't show anything. You didn't show CM doing half the Dmg to Superman that WW has. You didn't show CM making lasting injury to Superman as WW has. What have you shown? Old scans from jurgens era Superman?
Most people who know anything about Superman, Captain Marvel, Black Adam, and Wonder Woman or DC in general.
I showed plenty. You haven't shown anything close to Diana stalemating Superman in anything close to a direct strength comparison. I have.
I showed Superman admitting how Captain Marvel is his equal and is too evenly matched with him more times than once.
I showed scans from multiple writers.
What's the problem here?
Originally posted by -Pr-
Oh, that's true imo.Diana has other abilities which make her a tough opponent for Kal, like her speed, skill and the like. In terms of pure strength, though, if people are going to make the "Captain Marvel = Superman" argument, then by extension it would mean that Captain Marvel > Wonder Woman, at least strength wise.
👆
Yeah, no one's saying that Diana isn't tough. Her own physical stats, skills, and gear combined make her formidable to Superman, and she's a bad match up for Marvel and Adam because of the lasso. But physically, she's not as strong as Marvel or Superman. Not by feats or statements alike.
Originally posted by JakeTheBankWhat feats? WW has done better against Superman than CM has.
👆Yeah, no one's saying that Diana isn't tough. Her own physical stats, skills, and gear combined make her formidable to Superman, and she's a bad match up for Marvel and Adam because of the lasso. But physically, she's not as strong as Marvel or Superman. Not by feats or statements alike.
Originally posted by Comics Queen
Gail Simone is the editor of DC or Wonder Woman's longest and best writer?
Perez said as much. As did Byrne. As do virtually all writers when it comes to Superman compared to Wonder Woman. All people infinitely more informed than you or I.
DC shows us that Wonder Woman isn't as strong as Superman and isn't as close of a peer to him physically as Captain Marvel or Black Adam is.
She out fights Superman, using her superior skill and fighting ability to make up for her strength disadvantage. Case in point, do you believe that Diana would far as well, better, or worse than either Marvel or Black Adam in a slug-fest, trading blow for blow with Superman?
Originally posted by Comics Queen
Gail Simone is the editor of DC or Wonder Woman's longest and best writer?
She's neither (she wrote most of the current Wonder Woman series); I just used her as an example.
It did amaze me the reaction she got, though. Kind of sad in a way.
I honestly don't recall Superman ever stating that Diana was as strong as he is. He respects her and thinks very highly of her, but in terms of pure strength, he has her beaten. And DC still likes to claim that he and Marvel are equals (which I agree with, at least at base levels).
It's a roundabout way of looking at it, sure, but no less accurate imo.
Originally posted by -Pr-Marvel has no strength feats to speak of and he, has stalemated WW. I do believe Superman to be Superior to WW and Marvel in strength. But not by a huge margin. Marvel keeps up because he is magically durable and WW keeps up because she is swifter and hits harder due to skill.
She's neither (she wrote most of the current Wonder Woman series); I just used her as an example.It did amaze me the reaction she got, though. Kind of sad in a way.
I honestly don't recall Superman ever stating that Diana was as strong as he is. He respects her and thinks very highly of her, but in terms of pure strength, he has her beaten. And DC still likes to claim that he and Marvel are equals (which I agree with, at least at base levels).
It's a roundabout way of looking at it, sure, but no less accurate imo.
Originally posted by JakeTheBankI believe strength has nothing to do with a slug fest. It has more to do with who is more durable. Thanos is stronger than the Juggernaut. Can he win in a slug fest? No. Black Adam and Captain Marvel are more durable than most any herald level beings due to their magic enchantments.
Perez said as much. As did Byrne. As do virtually all writers when it comes to Superman compared to Wonder Woman. All people infinitely more informed than you or I.DC shows us that Wonder Woman isn't as strong as Superman and isn't as close of a peer to him physically as Captain Marvel or Black Adam is.
She out fights Superman, using her superior skill and fighting ability to make up for her strength disadvantage. Case in point, do you believe that Diana would far as well, better, or worse than either Marvel or Black Adam in a slug-fest, trading blow for blow with Superman?
Originally posted by Comics Queen
I believe strength has nothing to do with a slug fest. It has more to do with who is more durable. Thanos is stronger than the Juggernaut. Can he win in a slug fest? No. Black Adam and Captain Marvel are more durable than most any herald level beings due to their magic enchantments.
what
It has to do with strength as much as it has to do with durability. Thanos and Juggernaut doesn't make sense at all as they're not even comparable to the characters of WW, CM, BA, or Superman.
Their durability is focused around magical defenses and the manipulation of their bodies by outside sources. A magical blast from Felix Faust would hurt Superman, whereas Captain Marvel walks right through it, for example. Unless you think Captain Marvel and Black Adam are significantly more durable when it comes to blunt force trauma than Superman, which I've not seen as the case.
Originally posted by Comics Queen
Marvel has no strength feats to speak of and he, has stalemated WW. I do believe Superman to be Superior to WW and Marvel in strength. But not by a huge margin. Marvel keeps up because he is magically durable and WW keeps up because she is swifter and hits harder due to skill.
Him fighting Superman and Superman's own words don't count as strength feats?
Hits harder?
Originally posted by -Pr-Wonder Woman hits harder than Captain Marvel. He has never done the kind of DMG to Superman while Standing still that she can. On the ground, Wonder Woman is superior to them all. While Superman beats them all in the air. Superman's own words say that Wonder Woman is earth's next line of defense after himself. Not CM.
Him fighting Superman and Superman's own words don't count as strength feats?Hits harder?
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
whatIt has to do with strength as much as it has to do with durability. Thanos and Juggernaut doesn't make sense at all as they're not even comparable to the characters of WW, CM, BA, or Superman.
Their durability is focused around magical defenses and the manipulation of their bodies by outside sources. A magical blast from Felix Faust would hurt Superman, whereas Captain Marvel walks right through it, for example. Unless you think Captain Marvel and Black Adam are significantly more durable when it comes to blunt force trauma than Superman, which I've not seen as the case.
Originally posted by Comics Queen
Strength has nothing to do with a slug fest unless all applicants have the same durablity. Even then, healing factor, will to fight, all play a part. Besides, Wonder Woman would hit BA or CM 3 times as many times as they hit her and with more force. Speed equals force upon impact.
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So you really think Black Adam and Captain Marvel have lesser striking force than Diana? Even though Captain Marvel's bloodied Superman numerous times without magically amped strikes? Even though Captain Marvel has bloodied Black Adam numerous times who possesses greater magical defenses than Superman, and therefore, shouldn't be as prone to "magic damage"?
Originally posted by JakeTheBankHow many times has Black Adam or Captain Marvel done any near the kind of DMG to an amped Superman that Diana has?
😬So you really think Black Adam and Captain Marvel have lesser striking force than Diana? Even though Captain Marvel's bloodied Superman numerous times without magically amped strikes? Even though Captain Marvel has bloodied Black Adam numerous times who possesses greater magical defenses than Superman, and therefore, shouldn't be as prone to "magic damage"?
Originally posted by Comics Queen
Wonder Woman hits harder than Captain Marvel. He has never done the kind of DMG to Superman while Standing still that she can. On the ground, Wonder Woman is superior to them all. While Superman beats them all in the air. Superman's own words say that Wonder Woman is earth's next line of defense after himself. Not CM.
Diana uses magical weapons. When she's done real damage to him, it's been done through intelligence, skill or catching him out; not raw strength.
Next line of defence =/= the next strongest.
Originally posted by Comics Queen
How many times has Black Adam or Captain Marvel done any near the kind of DMG to an amped Superman that Diana has?
how many times has she fought an amped Superman?
Originally posted by Comics Queen
How many times has Black Adam or Captain Marvel done any near the kind of DMG to an amped Superman that Diana has?
Can you even begin to quantify that amp? Aside from he got some sun so he's x more powerful? Her damaging Superman is the result of her skill exploitation and the fact that Superman at the time wasn't in his right mind. If we want to go that route, Captain Marvel - while injured - held his own against a JLA roster which included Diana, The Flash, J'onn, and Guy Gardner in hell. Captain Marvel, while holding back, held his own and damaged Superman while he was possessed by Eclipso...twice. Captain Marvel takes on a guy who's magical resistance is just as good as his and far more ruthless and bloodies him and routinely stalemates him.
You're essentially ignoring all the history that points to Diana being less strong than Superman by a fair amount and all the history that points to Marvel being as strong as Superman or only slightly weaker at best. Writers have said she's not as strong as Superman nor is she that close to him strength wise that Marvel is. That's just fact, whether you like it or not. Captain Marvel's strength exceeds that of Diana's, Diana's skill and fighting ability exceeds that of Captain Marvel's.
That's canon and backed up by years worth's of on panel feats, statements from people involved in the instances, writers, and the informed comic book fan.
Originally posted by JakeTheBankFirst off, you are of the contention that I think CM and Superman are equals. I do not. Lets get that str8. And CM's Strength cannot outstrip Diana's when he gets his from Herculese and she is stronger than Herc. She has best Herc in combat. You have NOT proven that CM is stronger than Diana. You saying so does not make it so. Not when I've shown Diana to do longer lasting DMG to Superman than CM and she even hits Superman further along than CM does. One more thing. Since when does Superman's bio Aura and invulnerablity change just because he think's he's fighting Doomsday instead of Wonder Woman? If anything, him thinking he is fighting Doomsday helps my case. We know how strong DD is. If WW were as weak as you think she is, Superman would have immediately noticed the difference.
Can you even begin to quantify that amp? Aside from he got some sun so he's x more powerful? Her damaging Superman is the result of her skill exploitation and the fact that Superman at the time wasn't in his right mind. If we want to go that route, Captain Marvel - while injured - held his own against a JLA roster which included Diana, The Flash, J'onn, and Guy Gardner in hell. Captain Marvel, while holding back, held his own and damaged Superman while he was possessed by Eclipso...twice. Captain Marvel takes on a guy who's magical resistance is just as good as his and far more ruthless and bloodies him and routinely stalemates him.You're essentially ignoring all the history that points to Diana being less strong than Superman by a fair amount and all the history that points to Marvel being as strong as Superman or only slightly weaker at best. Writers have said she's not as strong as Superman nor is she that close to him strength wise that Marvel is. That's just fact, whether you like it or not. Captain Marvel's strength exceeds that of Diana's, Diana's skill and fighting ability exceeds that of Captain Marvel's.
That's canon and backed up by years worth's of on panel feats, statements from people involved in the instances, writers, and the informed comic book fan.
Originally posted by -Pr-Her fist are magical weapons? When he was holding himself in pain and kneeled over from her assault, that was from magical weapons? Skill isn't going to over come Superman's massive bio aura and invulnerablity. Strength has to do it. Or do you think Batman's skill, which is greater than Diana's could make superman hurt? Wonder Woman fought an amped Superman twice to my recollection.
Diana uses magical weapons. When she's done real damage to him, it's been done through intelligence, skill or catching him out; not raw strength.Next line of defence =/= the next strongest.
how many times has she fought an amped Superman?