Libya

Started by inimalist17 pages

Of the members of the Security Council other than the permanent five, only Germany and possibly India and Brazil can be described as actual or potential great powers. Several of today’s temporary U.N. Security Council members are hardly countries at all. Lebanon’s government controls only part of its territory. Gabon is a statelet with a mere 1.6 million people, smaller than many American cities.

In the vote to authorize war against Libya, the U.S., Britain and France were joined by Bosnia and Herzegovina, Colombia, Gabon, Lebanon, Nigeria, Portugal and South Africa. Abstaining from the vote were five countries: Brazil, Russia, India, China and Germany.

What do the five countries that registered their opposition to the Libyan war have in common? They make up most of the great powers of the early twenty-first century. A few years back, Goldman Sachs identified the so-called "BRIC’s" -- Brazil, Russia, India and China -- as the most important emerging countries in the world. The opponents of the Libyan war on the Security Council are the BRIC’s plus Germany, the most populous and richest country in Europe.

Including the United States, the Security Council nations that voted for the no-fly zone resolution have a combined population of a little more than 700 million people and a combined GDP, in terms of purchasing power parity, of roughly $20 trillion. The Security Council countries that showed their disapproval of the Libyan war by abstaining from the vote have a combined population of about 3 billion people and a GDP of around $21 trillion.

If the U.S. is factored out, the disproportion between the pro-war and anti-war camps on the Security Council is even more striking. The countries that abstained from the vote account for more than 40 percent of the human race. The countries that joined the U.S. in voting to authorize attacks on Libya, including Britain and France, have a combined population that adds up to a little more than 5 percent of the human race.

The truth is that the U.S. is joined in its war on Libya by only two second-rank great powers, Britain and France, which between them carved up North Africa and the Middle East a century ago, slaughtering and torturing many Arabs in the process. Every other major power on earth (with the exception of Japan, which is not on the Council and has been quiet) opposed the Anglo-French-American attack in North Africa, registering that opposition by abstentions rather than "no" votes in the Security Council.

The U.S., along with Britain and France, won the Security Council vote in the face of opposition from China, Russia, Germany, India and Brazil only by rounding up the votes of various minor countries, including Gabon and Lebanon and Colombia and Portugal. If the U.S. promised favors to these weak nations in return for pro-war votes, it would not be the first time in the history of American diplomacy. In any event, the claim that the international community supports the war cannot be sustained, in the face of the opposition of the BRIC’s plus Germany.

And what of the alleged moral authority provided by the Arab League? A week after calling on the UN to impose a no-fly zone on Libya, the Arab League reversed its position, once western bombs began to rain down on an Arab country. Explaining the reversal, Amr Mussa, the secretary general of the Arab League, said: "What has happened in Libya differs from the goal of imposing a no-fly zone and what we want is the protection of civilians and not bombing other civilians."

http://www.salon.com/news/politics/war_room/2011/03/21/lind_libya_war/index.html

here it is important to remember the Wikileaks cables that show American diplomats bribing weaker nations for support at the UN.

Asked what the coalition knows about the whereabouts of Gadhafi, Gen. Carter Ham said essentially, not much. Speaking by video conference from his headquarters in Germany, Ham told Pentagon reporters that the international coalition is focusing instead on knocking out Libya's ability to command and control its forces.

another escalation in the terms of the mandate of the UN resolution.

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2011/03/21/libya_more_coalition_airstrikes/index.html

YouTube video

-no clear definition of "success" in Libya?

-no timetable for mission end?

-should NATO take over officially?

YouTube video

I don't like Farrakhan, but I agree with him on this one.

Originally posted by inimalist
another escalation in the terms of the mandate of the UN resolution.

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2011/03/21/libya_more_coalition_airstrikes/index.html

I don't think it's really an escalation. The resolution was much broader than the establishment of the no-fly zone. It's just that the proposal started there.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
I don't think it's really an escalation. The resolution was much broader than the establishment of the no-fly zone. It's just that the proposal started there.

The resolution makes provisions from protecting civilians (which in itself has been interpreted much more broadly than even those who agreed to a no-fly zone invisioned). Destroying the command and control structure of the Libyan military is an extreme escalation of this, and only tangentally related to protecting civilians.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Interesting justification made someone on the xkcd forums. The Constitution states that treaties are as binding as the Constitution itself (they're count among the things that are the "supreme law of the land"😉. The US signed a treaty that made it part of the the UN Security Council . . .

found this, don't know how accurate it is, best I've seen, though Salon takes a "anti-war" stance on Libya:

http://www.salon.com/news/libya/index.html?story=/politics/war_room/2011/03/21/congress_war_powers_the_president

sorry for the post storm, I hope this stuff is relevant for those interested. needless to say, this is something that I see as important

I've added emphasis on this last one:

National Journal did the math on the financial costs of our Libyan adventure:

[quote]
With allies expected to shoulder some of the bill, the initial stages of taking out Libya’s air defenses could ultimately cost U.S.-led coalition forces between $400 million and $800 million, according to a report released by the Center for Strategic and Budgetary Assessments earlier this month.

Maintaining a coastal no-fly-zone after those first strikes would cost in the range of $30 million to $100 million per week – not pocket change by any means, but far less than the $100 million to $300 million estimated weekly cost for patrolling the skies above the entire 680,000-square-mile country.

Needless to say, military engagements -- especially those involving high-tech weapons like $1 million-a-pop Tomahawk cruise missiles -- become very expensive very quickly.

That fact makes it all the more striking that the Obama administration launched the bombing raids without consulting Congress. For comparison's sake, the Republican-led House has spent recent weeks arguing over such issues as the Corporation for Public Broadcasting ($422 million in annual federal funding) and Planned Parenthood (roughly $325 million in annual federal funding).[/quote]

consistency 🙂

America loses funding for public news and pregnancy support, Libyan people die, budget balanced!

http://www.salon.com/news/politics/war_room/2011/03/21/libya_cost/index.html

Originally posted by inimalist
The resolution makes provisions from protecting civilians (which in itself has been interpreted much more broadly than even those who agreed to a no-fly zone invisioned). Destroying the command and control structure of the Libyan military is an extreme escalation of this, and only tangentally related to protecting civilians.

My point is that the UN resolution was never about a no-fly zone. Some people said "hey let's make a no-fly zone" and the UN said "nah, lets go all in" and most of the world missed what they said.

I wouldn't call attacking C&C an escalation either, that's how you fight an army. The guys with the guns are much more dangerous when they know who to shoot.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
My point is that the UN resolution was never about a no-fly zone. Some people said "hey let's make a no-fly zone" and the UN said "nah, lets go all in" and most of the world missed what they said.

I wouldn't call attacking C&C an escalation either, that's how you fight an army. The guys with the guns are much more dangerous when they know who to shoot.

oh, cool, fair enough, I would agree with you entirely, the UN has mandated NATO forces as air support for the rebel army

however, in a "no fly zone" specifically, not in a UN mandated attack against the Libyan forces, the C&C structure, including things like Ghadaffi's royal palace, would not be on the target list, nor would advancing ground troops. EDIT: I'm even quoting the American Vice Admiral on this, who explicitly stated that the attack against Ghaddafi's ground forces was not an aspect of the no fly zone, but of a greater implementation of "civilian safety". Will he then bomb the advancing rebel troops?

Originally posted by inimalist
you don't think American oil policy is playing even the slightest role in why they are initiating military action against Libya but remaining quiet about the same type of state violence in Bahrain and Yemen?

If it was about oil then they'd simply let Ghadaffi win in the shortest time possible so they could get back to some stability and get their oil companies in and producing again.

I'm saying that the people who say it has nothing to do with protecting innocent civilians are simply wrong. You could argue that this itself has selfish connotations in that the US is only saving civilians to make itself look like it cares but frankly I think that's massively cynical (and I'm one of the most cynical people I know)

As for your second reply. I'll address it as a general whole rather than quoting and responding to separate parts.

We're both clearly speaking about this from a level of ignorance that the UN nation's leaders wont have in terms of the level of violence being perpetrated on the civilian populations of the counties you mention but I think it's a fair assessment to say that the level of violence in Libya by Ghadaffi on his people is clearly massively disproportionate to most of the other countries in the recent Arab uprisings.

Now don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to use that as some sort of excuse to ignore the violence being committed in the other countries...Far from it. There has to be a tipping point somewhere...Granted in an ideal situation it would be at a far lesser level than a tyrant using tanks and fighter jets on his own people but unfortunately we don't live in that world. I get as frustrated as you when despite horrific violence being perpetrated, our leaders still insist on using every diplomatic avenue to stop the violence despite it being unsuccessful.

A perfect example in recent years is Sudan. If it were up to me there would've been military intervention years ago to stop the horrific crimes being committed by the government. And I could say the same about loads of countries. But I still stand by the view that just because we can't act everywhere doesn't mean we shouldn't act anywhere.

What I don't agree with is that the US needed Ghadaffi out of the way or that military action was needed to bring Libya closer to the west in order to get that oil as that was happening regardless...Some would argue that's even worse...Condoning Ghadaffi's previous stance and actions towards the west (The Lockerbie bombing being an example as some sources would suggest...Whether you believe he had anything to do with it is another matter because the issue is that the western governments do) so long as he's a bit more moderate in order to get what we want from the country. I guess if every western country were to be as morally virtuous as to simply not deal with any morally dubious countries then they'd not only be hypocritical they'd also never do trade with any nation.

Finally, as much as Sym might want to call it a logical fallacy, it is worth noting that there is no way to ensure that this revolution ends in less bloodshed with our assistance as without. I agree, it will probably save people in Banghazi over the next couple of days, but what if, and of course if (though this would not be unheard of or even uncommon historically), the society breaks along different tribal and ethnic lines? Even if the violence ends, how involved in the new government are we going to be? are we deciding to build another nation? Like, the cliche in Iraq was "you break it, you bought it", by starting this bombing campaign here, the west has "bought" the Libyan revolution. As far as we are concerned, it better work out.

I guess if we were to plan for every eventuality then we'd never intervene anywhere but it also begs other moral questions.

Take Iraq for example...If we were to take away all the WMD questions and the entire situation was laid flat out to the western world's public to begin with what would be the reactions of most people to the question of whether or not it's OK to leave Saddam in power despite his massive genocide of Shi'ite people simply because there would be a vacuum which noone else could fill if he was removed and that could "POTENTIALLY" lead to more deaths rather than preventing genocide.

As an aside...It's good to not have a diametrically opposed debate with you for a change.

YouTube video

killed as they were retreating.... not that air strikes are the moral high ground in the first place, but ****...

jaden, I'm working on a worthwhile reply.

On youir last point, I tend to think we agree more than not, if only really diverge on like, who is more responsible for the continual violence in gaza or whether or not hamas is as bad as the taliban. I really don't think I've ever been diametrically opposed to you on anything, my memory is poor though...

EDIT: maybe all I'm saying is I've always seen the logic of your points, even if I disagree on technicalities

Originally posted by inimalist
YouTube video

killed as they were retreating.... not that air strikes are the moral high ground in the first place, but ****...

Hrm. I find myself more disturbed by my own reaction than what NATO did. It's more than just a feeling of pride. More of an undeserved feeling of personal power. Gadaffi rolled out the strongest arm of his military and we wiped it out like it was nothing.

I have to wonder what it was like for the people in Bengazi. Days of helplessness and then there are some flashes of light and your enemies are dead.

look, like for as much as I am against involvement, its hard to watch these and not be moved. I'll eat my hat if we pull it off of course.

But ya, that must feel like a gift from some higher power, what must have seemed like an invinceable army reduced to smoldering wreckage during the night...

so, how about those X-35s 😄

The way the guy describes it as "like a laser" speaks volumes to how they view the intervention and what it means to them. Both sides are essentially fighting a Cold War era fight, just one side has more tanks and artillery. All of a sudden 21st century airpower shows up.

It's almost like if at height of the Battle of Britain a bunch of F-86 Sabres showed up and swatted the Luftwaffe out of the air, imagine how the Brits would feel.

pretty sure britain would have been happy. And attacked them while they were retreating? Is that a bad thing? I mean, they were retreating back to the city where Ghadaffi keeps shooting protestors. does he really need more armed men in that city?

Originally posted by truejedi
pretty sure britain would have been happy. And attacked them while they were retreating? Is that a bad thing? I mean, they were retreating back to the city where Ghadaffi keeps shooting protestors. does he really need more armed men in that city?

Britain would've been happy???

It was French Rafale fighter/bombers that carried out these attacks. (Who'd have thought the French had it in them eh?)

Originally posted by jaden101
Britain would've been happy???

It was French Rafale fighter/bombers that carried out these attacks. (Who'd have thought the French had it in them eh?)

Heh. I thought the same when I was watching the news and they mentioned the "Coalition" which included France and I was sure I had misheard.

this pretty much sums it up:


The manipulative pro-war argument in Libya
By Glenn Greenwald

*

Advocating for the U.S.'s military action in Libya, The New Republic's John Judis lays out the argument which many of his fellow war advocates are making: that those who oppose the intervention are guilty of indifference to the plight of the rebels and to Gadaffi's tyranny:

So I ask myself, would these opponents of U.S. intervention (as part of U.N. Security Council approved action), have preferred:

(1) That gangs of mercenaries, financed by the country’s oil wealth, conduct a bloodbath against Muammar Qaddafi’s many opponents?

(2) That Qaddafi himself, wounded, enraged, embittered, and still in power, retain control of an important source of the world’s oil supply, particularly for Europe, and be able to spend the wealth he derives from it to sow discord in the region?

(3) And that the movement toward democratization in the Arab world -- which has spread from Tunisia to Bahrain, and now includes such unlikely locales as Syria -- be dealt an enormous setback through the survival of one of region's most notorious autocrats?

If you answer "Who cares?" to each of these, I have no counter-arguments to offer, but if you worry about two or three of these prospects, then I think you have to reconsider whether Barack Obama did the right thing in lending American support to this intervention.

Note how, in Judis' moral world, there are only two possibilities: one can either support the American military action in Libya or be guilty of a "who cares?" attitude toward Gadaffi's butchery. At least as far as this specific line of pro-war argumentation goes, this is just 2003 all over again. Back then, those opposed to the war in Iraq were deemed pro-Saddam: indifferent to the repression and brutalities suffered by the Iraqi people at his hands and willing to protect his power. Now, those opposed to U.S. involvement in the civil war in Libya are deemed indifferent to the repression and brutalities suffered by the Libyan people from Gadaffi and willing to protect his power. This rationale is as flawed logically as it is morally.

Why didn't this same moral calculus justify the attack on Iraq? Saddam Hussein really was a murderous, repressive monster: at least Gadaffi's equal when it came to psychotic blood-spilling. Those who favored regime change there made exactly the same arguments as Judis (and many others) make now for Libya: it's humane and noble to topple a brutal dictator; using force is the only way to protect parts of the population from slaughter (in Iraq, the Kurds and Shiites; in Libya, the rebels); it's not in America's interests to allow a deranged despot (or his deranged sons) to control a vital oil-rich nation; and removing the tyrant will aid the spread of freedom and democracy in the Middle East. Why does that reasoning justify war in Libya but not Iraq?

In Foreign Policy, Stephen Walt argues that "liberal interventionists" and neocons share most of the same premises about America's foreign policy and its role in the world, with the sole exception being that the former seek to act through international institutions to legitimize their military actions while the latter don't. Strongly bolstering Walt's view is this morning's pro-war New York Times Editorial, which ends this way:

Libya is a specific case: Muammar el-Qaddafi is erratic, widely reviled, armed with mustard gas and has a history of supporting terrorism. If he is allowed to crush the opposition, it would chill pro-democracy movements across the Arab world.

Wasn't all of that at least as true of Saddam Hussein? Wasn't that exactly the "humanitarian" case made to justify that invasion? And wasn't that exactly the basis for the accusation against Iraq war opponents that they were indifferent to Saddam's tyranny -- i.e., if you oppose the war to remove Saddam, it means you are ensuring that he and his sons will stay in power, which in turn means you are indifferent to his rape rooms and mass graves and are willing to stand by while the Iraqi people suffer under his despotism? How can the "indifference-to-suffering" accusation be fair when made against opponents of the Libya war but not when made against Iraq war opponents?

But my real question for Judis (and those who voice the same accusations against Libya intervention opponents) is this: do you support military intervention to protect protesters in Yemen, Bahrain, Saudi Arabia and other U.S. allies from suppression, or to stop the still-horrendous suffering in the Sudan, or to prevent the worsening humanitarian crisis in the Ivory Coast? Did you advocate military intervention to protect protesters in Iran and Egypt, or to stop the Israeli slaughter of hundreds of trapped innocent civilians in Gaza and Lebanon or its brutal and growing occupation of the West Bank?

If not, doesn't that necessarily mean -- using this same reasoning -- that you're indifferent to the suffering of all of those people, willing to stand idly by while innocents are slaughtered, to leave in place brutal tyrants who terrorize their own population or those in neighboring countries? Or, in those instances where you oppose military intervention despite widespread suffering, do you grant yourself the prerogative of weighing other factors: such as the finitude of resources, doubt about whether U.S. military action will hurt rather than help the situation, cynicism about the true motives of the U.S. government in intervening, how intervention will affect other priorities, the civilian deaths that will inevitably occur at our hands, the precedents that such intervention will set for future crises, and the moral justification of invading foreign countries? For those places where you know there is widespread violence and suffering yet do not advocate for U.S. military action to stop it, is it fair to assume that you are simply indifferent to the suffering you refuse to act to prevent, or do you recognize there might be other reasons why you oppose the intervention?

In the very same Editorial where it advocates for the Libya intervention on the grounds of stopping government violence and tyranny, The New York Times acknowledges about its pro-intervention view: "not in Bahrain or Yemen, even though we condemn the violence against protesters in both countries." Are those who merely "condemn" the violence by those two U.S. allies but who do not want to intervene to stop it guilty of indifference to the killings there? What rationale is there for intervening in Libya but not in those places? In a very well-argued column, The Washington Post's Eugene Robinson today provides the only plausible answer:

Anyone looking for principle and logic in the attack on Moammar Gaddafi's tyrannical regime will be disappointed. . . . Why is Libya so different? Basically, because the dictators of Yemen, Bahrain and Saudi Arabia -- also Jordan and the Persian Gulf sheikdoms, for that matter -- are friendly, cooperative and useful. Gaddafi is not. . . .

Gaddafi is crazy and evil; obviously, he wasn’t going to listen to our advice about democracy. The world would be fortunate to be rid of him. But war in Libya is justifiable only if we are going to hold compliant dictators to the same standard we set for defiant ones. If not, then please spare us all the homilies about universal rights and freedoms. We'll know this isn’t about justice, it's about power.

I understand -- and absolutely believe -- that many people who support the intervention in Libya are doing so for good and noble reasons: disgust at standing by and watching Gadaffi murder hundreds or thousands of rebels. I also believe that some people who supported the attack on Iraq did so out of disgust for Saddam Hussein and a desire to see him removed from power. It's commendable to oppose that type of despotism, and I understand -- and share -- the impulse.

But what I cannot understand at all is how people are willing to believe that the U.S. Government is deploying its military and fighting this war because, out of abundant humanitarianism, it simply cannot abide internal repression, tyranny and violence against one's own citizens. This is the same government that enthusiastically supports and props up regimes around the world that do exactly that, and that have done exactly that for decades.

By all accounts, one of the prime administration advocates for this war was Hillary Clinton; she's the same person who, just two years ago, said this about the torture-loving Egyptian dictator: "I really consider President and Mrs. Mubarak to be friends of my family." They're the same people overseeing multiple wars that routinely result in all sorts of atrocities. They are winking and nodding to their Yemeni, Bahrani and Saudi friends who are doing very similar things to what Gadaffi is doing, albeit (for now) on a smaller scale. They just all suddenly woke up one day and decided to wage war in an oil-rich Muslim nation because they just can't stand idly by and tolerate internal repression and violence against civilians? Please.

*continuing


For the reasons I identified the other day, there are major differences between the military actions in Iraq and Libya. But what is true of both -- as is true for most wars -- is that each will spawn suffering for some people even if they alleviate it for others. Dropping lots of American bombs on a country tends to kill a lot of innocent people. For that reason, indifference to suffering is often what war proponents -- not war opponents -- are guilty of. But whatever else is true, the notion that opposing a war is evidence of indifference to tyranny and suffering is equally simple-minded, propagandistic, manipulative and intellectually bankrupt in both the Iraq and Libya contexts. And, in particular, those who opposed or still oppose intervention in Bahrain, Yemen, Egypt, Iraq, the Sudan, against Israel, in the Ivory Coast -- and/or any other similar places where there is widespread human-caused suffering -- have no business advancing that argument.