Originally posted by TacDavey
Mmm. Perhaps "evidence" was technically the wrong word. There are logical reasons to believe then.I don't think I am.
It was you who claimed to be certain there was no God, not I. It is you who must back up your claims.
Irrelevant. You can't take "evils" from separate religions and then condemn all of them for them. That's just ignorance.
Furthermore, if someone thinks they are doing God's will when they perform an evil, it is the PERSONS fault for misinterpreting it, not the religions.
Mmmm... I wouldn't say there are many argument AGAINST the existence of God, more like there are arguments against the arguments for God.
And at any rate, the claim that there is zero evidence supporting the existence of God is quite simply incorrect. It's a very highly debated topic today.
You will also find that Logic is the wrong word too.
Ok, you may not think you are. Thats fine.
I know: and Im not doing that..... There are evils in all religions.
Religion is people-made, and when people have acted on its commandments, they are carrying out it's evil.
The reverse-nuremberg-defense does not apply here.
Yes: Its so highly debated because its amazing that religion gets so much given to it, yet it or God has not one shred of proof.
If you think you have some, then bring it to the table, man.
Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
YouTube video
That's a bunch of generalizing bullshit. He's putting extreme Christians and other religious fanatics against atheistic people, as well as suggesting that religious people are beyond reason.
He's also making a mockery of faith at all, while only specifying the bigger religions. He's working under the premise that atheists are more open-minded, but won't mention the open-minded religious people, and religions for that matter. You fail to see this, because you're so ridiculously easily influenced by a good speaker in favor of atheism, or against religion.
He's pulling all atheists over one edge, and all religious over another. It's a very narrow-minded behavior, and he's able to become so popular because of easily influenced people like you, who has already made up their mind of steel that religion can not be true.
"Oh, he's making some valid points", yeah, but he's also making a shitload of invalid points, but most don't see that, because they obsess over the valid ones.
One example: He mention Hitler not being an atheist. This is absolutely IRRELEVANT. It does not in any way contribute to the case he's making. In fact, the words following him saying this, speaks of a whole different matter. He mentioned it for the sake of mentioning it, and people will immediately think "Oh, Hitler was religious. That explains it", when it doesn't at all. It's utterly beside the point and it drive people to a fallacious conclusion.
Originally posted by dadudemonIMO, this is the only way out (so to speak). What the 'eye of flesh' and 'eye of reason' can not discern, the 'eye of spirit' can. As I had phrased it a few pages back (albeit with a mystical spin) --
This entire scenario assumes I have an enternal essence/spirit. The God I believe in accounts for that, easily: my spirit will recognize the other as an imposter OR it will know that it is not the one true God.
Originally posted by Mindship-- however, this does require the assumption of a transcendent spirit, which is problematic in its own right from an empirical science POV.
...when one does reach the highest levels of meditative consciousness, God's presence is overwhelmingly self-evident...
Originally posted by Mindship
IMO, this is the only way out (so to speak). What the 'eye of flesh' and 'eye of reason' can not discern, the 'eye of spirit' can. As I had phrased it a few pages back (albeit with a mystical spin) ---- however, this does require the assumption of a transcendent spirit, which is problematic in its own right from an empirical science POV.
Again though, making you believe the "eye of the spirit" is revealing to you the truth is surely within the realms of possibility of a sufficiently powerful being. Which is not proof.
More religion causing violence and death:
http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Video-Afghanistan-Five-People-Killed-In-Kandahar-Protests-Over-Burning-Of-Koran/Article/201104115964331?lpos=World_News_Carousel_Region_4&lid=ARTICLE_15964331_Video%2C_Afghanistan%3A_Five_People_Killed_In_Kandahar_Protests_Over_Burning_Of_Koran
BTW Harris is right and its not generalising bullshit.
Prove otherwise.
Also, SM64, picking on his mentioning of the Hitler argument shows us all how you have not one bit of familiarity with Sam Harris, what he was about or what his book was.
He rightly said that "Letter to a christian nation" (The book that he was touring on) is a book publishing and addressing the public's biggest questions in reaction to his 1st book.
The hitler thing was cited frequently by the religious.
He mentions that as a result.
Originally posted by Bardock42That is a good point. And given that we are (apparently) allowed to assume a 'sufficiently powerful being' (or, SPB), does this whole thought experiment become (as dadudemon put it) philosophically useless? "This cage -- by sheer force of definition -- is inescapable." /thread.
Again though, making you believe the "eye of the spirit" is revealing to you the truth is surely within the realms of possibility of a sufficiently powerful being. Which is not proof.
Prior, I was assuming an SPB which could affect us only on a sensory/mental level (since the discussion revolved around empirical evidence). Our spiritual functioning was safe (for now, I'll assume it exists, since -- so it seems to me --we can assume whatever we need to bolster our positions). But, if we assume the SPB really is sufficiently powerful, that it can affect us on every level, well heck, then we get...the Prince of Lies?
Originally posted by Mindship
That is a good point. And given that we are (apparently) allowed to assume a 'sufficiently powerful being' (or, SPB), does this whole thought experiment become (as dadudemon put it) philosophically useless? "This cage -- by sheer force of definition -- is inescapable." /thread.Prior, I was assuming an SPB which could affect us only on a sensory/mental level (since the discussion revolved around empirical evidence). Our spiritual functioning was safe (for now, I'll assume it exists, since -- so it seems to me --we can assume whatever we need to bolster our positions). But, if we assume the SPB really is sufficiently powerful, that it can affect us on every level, well heck, then we get...the Prince of Lies?
To be fair, that spiritual level you are talking about is completely hypothetical anyways, both you and dadudemon first have to introduce this unproven level. I do not believe in that, and regardless it is definitely not part of scientific evidence, which I still assume is the basis of the question dadudemon posed to me: 'Can you think of a scenario in which "God" can prove himself to you'.
Originally posted by Bardock42Is not your sufficiently powerful being completely hypothetical? At least we have a psychological tool and instructional methodology which exposes this hypothetical transcendent level for anyone to see; whereas (currently) with our astronomical tools we find nothing: we have zilch to indicate any intelligent ET life at all, let alone a super-ET. What are the limits for assumption in this thought experiment?
To be fair, that spiritual level you are talking about is completely hypothetical
Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
You will also find that Logic is the wrong word too.
It would certainly be incorrect to apply it to your posts.
Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Ok, you may not think you are. Thats fine.
Especially when it's justified.
Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
I know: and Im not doing that..... There are evils in all religions.
Then how am I suppose to take anything you say seriously? You make claims, but you refuse to back them up when I ask you to. You dodge my questions and then ask me for proof after you provide none. You haven't even provided an ARGUMENT.
Simply saying something and passing it off as true is not Logical, nor rational. Back up your claims, or we're done here.
Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Religion is people-made, and when people have acted on its commandments, they are carrying out it's evil.
The reverse-nuremberg-defense does not apply here.
This does not refute any part of my last post. Religion being "man made" is debatable, and completely irrelevant. My point still stands. You cannot take the sins of separate religions and apply them to all religions.
And again, just because SOME people who claim to be part of religion do evils, that is not the religions fault. It's the peoples fault. It's basic logic, if a religion says don't murder people, and someone murders someone, they are obviously not following that religion are they? Even if they claim they are. They aren't.
So tell me. What specific evil does Christianity demand of it's followers? I'm not talking about things people have done in THE NAME of Christianity, I'm talking about evils that Christianity requires someone to do.
Originally posted by Sadako of Girth
Yes: Its so highly debated because its amazing that religion gets so much given to it, yet it or God has not one shred of proof.
If you think you have some, then bring it to the table, man.
Again, this remark only shows that you
1.) have done no real research on the subject
or
2.) are simply denying the opposition so you can "win" a debate.
The Kalam Cosmological argument is the first thing to come to mind. I assume, since you make the claim that there is no evidence of any kind, you have heard of this argument and have refuted it? Kindly point out to me the problem with the argument then.
Originally posted by TacDavey
1)It would certainly be incorrect to apply it to your posts.2)Especially when it's justified.
3)Then how am I suppose to take anything you say seriously? You make claims, but you refuse to back them up when I ask you to. You dodge my questions and then ask me for proof after you provide none. You haven't even provided an ARGUMENT.
4)Simply saying something and passing it off as true is not Logical, nor rational. Back up your claims, or we're done here.
5)This does not refute any part of my last post. Religion being "man made" is debatable, and completely irrelevant. My point still stands. You cannot take the sins of separate religions and apply them to all religions.
And again, just because SOME people who claim to be part of religion do evils, that is not the religions fault. It's the peoples fault. It's basic logic, if a religion says don't murder people, and someone murders someone, they are obviously not following that religion are they? Even if they claim they are. They aren't.
So tell me. What specific evil does Christianity demand of it's followers? I'm not talking about things people have done in THE NAME of Christianity, I'm talking about evils that Christianity requires someone to do.
Again, this remark only shows that you
a.) have done no real research on the subject
or
b.) are simply denying the opposition so you can "win" a debate.
The Kalam Cosmological argument is the first thing to come to mind. I assume, since you make the claim that there is no evidence of any kind, you have heard of this argument and have refuted it? Kindly point out to me the problem with the argument then.
1)Not really: I can show my reasons for thinking stuff and the logic behind them, as I have done.
2) That you could have said "It would certainly be incorrect to apply it to your posts." is of particular irony, given your answer just now.
For you've justified nothing.
3) Which claims? I'd only be too happy to repost that which you have missed. Ive backed myself up all through the thread.
4) Same to you sir. The onus on the posters is to prove god.
Do it or you are indeed done here.
5) If religion is man made, is debatable, then debate it. 🙂
Where is your evidence to the contrary?
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Exodus 22:18 in 19 English translations of the Bible:
Various Biblical translations render this verse as:
American Standard Version "Thou shalt not suffer a sorceress to live."
The Answer: Put to death any woman who does evil magic.
Amplified Bible: You shall not allow a woman to live who practices sorcery.
Good News Version: Put to death any woman who practices magic.
James Moffatt Translation: You shall not allow any sorceress to live.
Jerusalem Bible: You shall not allow a sorceress to live.
King James Version: Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.
Living Bible: A sorceress shall be put to death.
Modern Language Bible: Allow no sorceress to live.
New American Bible: You shall not let a sorceress live.
New American Standard Bible: You shall not let a sorceress live.
New Century Version: Put to death any woman who does evil magic.
New International Version: Do not allow a sorceress to live.
New Living Translation: A sorceress must not be allowed to live.
New Revised Standard Version: You shall not permit a female sorcerer to live.
New World Translation: You must not preserve a sorceress alive.
The Promise: Contemporary English Version: Death is the punishment for witchcraft.
Revised Standard Version: You shall not permit a sorceress to live.
Revised English Bible: You must not allow a witch to live.
In the original Hebrew manuscript, the author used the word m'khashepah to describe the person who should be killed. The word means a woman who uses spoken spells to harm others - e.g. causing their death or loss of property. Clearly "evil sorceress" or "woman who does evil magic" would be the most accurate phrases in today's English usage for this verse.
The Good News Bible uses the term "magic." This is also a poor selection because that term has been used to refer to:
stage magic, sleight of hand, magic tricks.
ceremonial magic used to harm other persons.
ceremonial magic used to heal other persons.
The King James Version and Revised English Bible use the term "witch." In North America, the term normally refers to Wiccans -- the followers of the Wiccan religion. According to the Scofield Reference Bible this verse from the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament) was written in the year 1491 BCE. This is some 650 years before the origin of the Celtic people circa 850 BCE from whom some elements of Wicca were taken. So Exodus 22:18 can hardly be referring to Wiccans.
Murder decreed by commandment.
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Murder in the Bible
The act of murder is rampant in the Bible. In much of the Bible, especially the Old Testament, there are laws that command that people be killed for absurd reasons such as working on the Sabbath, being gay, cursing your parents, or not being a virgin on your wedding night. In addition to these crazy and immoral laws, there are plenty of examples of God's irrationality by his direct killing of many people for reasons that defy any rational explanation such as killing children who make fun of bald people, and the killing of a man who tried to keep the ark of God from falling during transport. There are also countless examples of mass murders commanded by God, including the murder of women, infants, and children.
The following passages are a very small percentage of the total passages approving of murder in the Bible. They are divided here into three parts: 1) Capital Punishment Crimes, 2) God's Murders for Stupid Reasons, 3) Murdering Children, and 4) Miscellaneous Murders. This list is long, but it barely scratches the surface of all the murders approved of in the Bible.
1) Capital Punishment Crimes:
Kill People Who Don't Listen to Priests
Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)
Kill Witches
You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)
Kill Homosexuals
"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)
Kill Fortunetellers
A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)
Death for Hitting Dad
Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)
Death for Cursing Parents
1) If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20 NAB)
2) All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)
Death for Adultery
If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)
Death for Fornication
A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)
Death to Followers of Other Religions
Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)
Kill Nonbelievers
They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)
Kill False Prophets
If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)
Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God
Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)
Kill Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night
But if this charge is true (that she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB)
Kill Followers of Other Religions.
1) If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)
2) Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden. When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death. (Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT)
Death for Blasphemy
One day a man who had an Israelite mother and an Egyptian father got into a fight with one of the Israelite men. During the fight, this son of an Israelite woman blasphemed the LORD's name. So the man was brought to Moses for judgment. His mother's name was Shelomith. She was the daughter of Dibri of the tribe of Dan. They put the man in custody until the LORD's will in the matter should become clear. Then the LORD said to Moses, "Take the blasphemer outside the camp, and tell all those who heard him to lay their hands on his head. Then let the entire community stone him to death. Say to the people of Israel: Those who blaspheme God will suffer the consequences of their guilt and be punished. Anyone who blasphemes the LORD's name must be stoned to death by the whole community of Israel. Any Israelite or foreigner among you who blasphemes the LORD's name will surely die. (Leviticus 24:10-16 NLT)
Kill False Prophets
1) Suppose there are prophets among you, or those who have dreams about the future, and they promise you signs or miracles, and the predicted signs or miracles take place. If the prophets then say, 'Come, let us worship the gods of foreign nations,' do not listen to them. The LORD your God is testing you to see if you love him with all your heart and soul. Serve only the LORD your God and fear him alone. Obey his commands, listen to his voice, and cling to him. The false prophets or dreamers who try to lead you astray must be put to death, for they encourage rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of slavery in the land of Egypt. Since they try to keep you from following the LORD your God, you must execute them to remove the evil from among you. (Deuteronomy 13:1-5 NLT)
2) But any prophet who claims to give a message from another god or who falsely claims to speak for me must die.' You may wonder, 'How will we know whether the prophecy is from the LORD or not?' If the prophet predicts something in the LORD's name and it does not happen, the LORD did not give the message. That prophet has spoken on his own and need not be feared. (Deuteronomy 18:20-22 NLT)
Infidels and Gays Should Die
So God let them go ahead and do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other's bodies. Instead of believing what they knew was the truth about God, they deliberately chose to believe lies. So they worshiped the things God made but not the Creator himself, who is to be praised forever. Amen. That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. And the men, instead of having normal sexual relationships with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men and, as a result, suffered within themselves the penalty they so richly deserved. When they refused to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their evil minds and let them do things that should never be done. Their lives became full of every kind of wickedness, sin, greed, hate, envy, murder, fighting, deception, malicious behavior, and gossip. They are backstabbers, haters of God, insolent, proud, and boastful. They are forever inventing new ways of sinning and are disobedient to their parents. They refuse to understand, break their promises, and are heartless and unforgiving. They are fully aware of God's death penalty for those who do these things, yet they go right ahead and do them anyway. And, worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too. (Romans 1:24-32 NLT)
Kill Anyone who Approaches the Tabernacle
For the LORD had said to Moses, 'Exempt the tribe of Levi from the census; do not include them when you count the rest of the Israelites. You must put the Levites in charge of the Tabernacle of the Covenant, along with its furnishings and equipment. They must carry the Tabernacle and its equipment as you travel, and they must care for it and camp around it. Whenever the Tabernacle is moved, the Levites will take it down and set it up again. Anyone else who goes too near the Tabernacle will be executed.' (Numbers 1:48-51 NLT)
Kill People for Working on the Sabbath
The LORD then gave these further instructions to Moses: 'Tell the people of Israel to keep my Sabbath day, for the Sabbath is a sign of the covenant between me and you forever. It helps you to remember that I am the LORD, who makes you holy. Yes, keep the Sabbath day, for it is holy. Anyone who desecrates it must die; anyone who works on that day will be cut off from the community. Work six days only, but the seventh day must be a day of total rest. I repeat: Because the LORD considers it a holy day, anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death.' (Exodus 31:12-15 NLT)
2) God's Murders for Stupid Reasons:
Kill Brats
From there Elisha went up to Bethel. While he was on his way, some small boys came out of the city and jeered at him. "Go up baldhead," they shouted, "go up baldhead!" The prophet turned and saw them, and he cursed them in the name of the Lord. Then two shebears came out of the woods and tore forty two of the children to pieces. (2 Kings 2:23-24 NAB)
God Kills the Curious
And he smote of the men of Beth-shemesh, because they had looked into the ark of Jehovah, he smote of the people seventy men, `and' fifty thousand men; and the people mourned, because Jehovah had smitten the people with a great slaughter. And the men of Beth-shemesh said, Who is able to stand before Jehovah, this holy God? and to whom shall he go up from us? (1Samuel 6:19-20 ASV)
Killed by a Lion
Meanwhile, the LORD instructed one of the group of prophets to say to another man, "Strike me!" But the man refused to strike the prophet. Then the prophet told him, "Because you have not obeyed the voice of the LORD, a lion will kill you as soon as you leave me." And sure enough, when he had gone, a lion attacked and killed him. (1 Kings 20:35-36 NLT)
Killing the Good Samaritan
The ark of God was placed on a new cart and taken away from the house of Abinadab on the hill. Uzzah and Ahio, sons of Abinadab guided the cart, with Ahio walking before it, while David and all the Israelites made merry before the Lord with all their strength, with singing and with citharas, harps, tambourines, sistrums, and cymbals.
When they came to the threshing floor of Nodan, Uzzah reached out his hand to the ark of God to steady it, for the oxen were making it tip. But the Lord was angry with Uzzah; God struck him on that spot, and he died there before God. (2 Samuel 6:3-7 NAB)
3) Murdering Children
Kill Sons of Sinners
Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants. (Isaiah 14:21 NAB)
God Will Kill Children
The glory of Israel will fly away like a bird, for your children will die at birth or perish in the womb or never even be conceived. Even if your children do survive to grow up, I will take them from you. It will be a terrible day when I turn away and leave you alone. I have watched Israel become as beautiful and pleasant as Tyre. But now Israel will bring out her children to be slaughtered." O LORD, what should I request for your people? I will ask for wombs that don't give birth and breasts that give no milk. The LORD says, "All their wickedness began at Gilgal; there I began to hate them. I will drive them from my land because of their evil actions. I will love them no more because all their leaders are rebels. The people of Israel are stricken. Their roots are dried up; they will bear no more fruit. And if they give birth, I will slaughter their beloved children." (Hosea 9:11-16 NLT)
Kill Men, Women, and Children
"Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple." So they began by killing the seventy leaders. "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!" So they went throughout the city and did as they were told." (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)
God Kills all the First Born of Egypt
And at midnight the LORD killed all the firstborn sons in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn son of the captive in the dungeon. Even the firstborn of their livestock were killed. Pharaoh and his officials and all the people of Egypt woke up during the night, and loud wailing was heard throughout the land of Egypt. There was not a single house where someone had not died. (Exodus 12:29-30 NLT)
Kill Old Men and Young Women
"You are my battle-ax and sword," says the LORD. "With you I will shatter nations and destroy many kingdoms. With you I will shatter armies, destroying the horse and rider, the chariot and charioteer. With you I will shatter men and women, old people and children, young men and maidens. With you I will shatter shepherds and flocks, farmers and oxen, captains and rulers. "As you watch, I will repay Babylon and the people of Babylonia for all the wrong they have done to my people in Jerusalem," says the LORD. "Look, O mighty mountain, destroyer of the earth! I am your enemy," says the LORD. "I will raise my fist against you, to roll you down from the heights. When I am finished, you will be nothing but a heap of rubble. You will be desolate forever. Even your stones will never again be used for building. You will be completely wiped out," says the LORD. (Jeremiah 51:20-26)
(Note that after God promises the Israelites a victory against Babylon, the Israelites actually get their butts kicked by them in the next chapter. So much for an all-knowing and all-powerful God.)
God Will Kill the Children of Sinners
If even then you remain hostile toward me and refuse to obey, I will inflict you with seven more disasters for your sins. I will release wild animals that will kill your children and destroy your cattle, so your numbers will dwindle and your roads will be deserted. (Leviticus 26:21-22 NLT)
More Rape and Baby Killing
Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children. (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)
4) Miscellaneous Murders
More of Samson's Murders
(The Lord saves Sampson from standing trial for 30 murders and arson by allowing him to kill 1000 more men.) When he reached Lehi, and the Philistines came shouting to meet him, the spirit of the Lord came upon him: the ropes around his arms become as flax that is consumed by fire and the bonds melted away from his hands. Near him was the fresh jawbone of an ass; he reached out, grasped it, and with it killed a thousand men. (Judges 15:14-15 NAB)
Peter Kills Two People
There was also a man named Ananias who, with his wife, Sapphira, sold some property. He brought part of the money to the apostles, but he claimed it was the full amount. His wife had agreed to this deception. Then Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart? You lied to the Holy Spirit, and you kept some of the money for yourself. The property was yours to sell or not sell, as you wished. And after selling it, the money was yours to give away. How could you do a thing like this? You weren't lying to us but to God." As soon as Ananias heard these words, he fell to the floor and died. Everyone who heard about it was terrified. Then some young men wrapped him in a sheet and took him out and buried him. About three hours later his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. Peter asked her, "Was this the price you and your husband received for your land?" "Yes," she replied, "that was the price." And Peter said, "How could the two of you even think of doing a thing like this – conspiring together to test the Spirit of the Lord? Just outside that door are the young men who buried your husband, and they will carry you out, too." Instantly, she fell to the floor and died. When the young men came in and saw that she was dead, they carried her out and buried her beside her husband. Great fear gripped the entire church and all others who heard what had happened. (Acts 5:1-11 NLT)
Mass Murder
This is what the Lord of hosts has to say: 'I will punish what Amalek did to Israel when he barred his way as he was coming up from Egypt. Go, now, attack Amalek, and deal with him and all that he has under the ban. Do not spare him, but kill men and women, children and infants, oxen and sheep, camels and asses.' (1 Samuel 15:2-3 NAB)
You Have to Kill
Cursed be he who does the Lords work remissly, cursed he who holds back his sword from blood. (Jeremiah 48:10 NAB)
The Danites Kill the Next Town
But the territory of the Danites was too small for them; so the Danites marched up and attacked Leshem, which they captured and put to the sword. Once they had taken possession of Lesham, they renamed the settlement after their ancestor Dan. (Joshua 19:47 NAB)
God Kills Some More
Then the LORD said to me, "Even if Moses and Samuel stood before me pleading for these people, I wouldn't help them. Away with them! Get them out of my sight! And if they say to you, 'But where can we go?' tell them, 'This is what the LORD says: Those who are destined for death, to death; those who are destined for war, to war; those who are destined for famine, to famine; those who are destined for captivity, to captivity.' "I will send four kinds of destroyers against them," says the LORD. "I will send the sword to kill, the dogs to drag away, the vultures to devour, and the wild animals to finish up what is left. Because of the wicked things Manasseh son of Hezekiah, king of Judah, did in Jerusalem, I will make my people an object of horror to all the kingdoms of the earth." (Jeremiah 15:1-4 NLT)
God Promises More Killing
I will make Mount Seir utterly desolate, killing off all who try to escape and any who return. I will fill your mountains with the dead. Your hills, your valleys, and your streams will be filled with people slaughtered by the sword. I will make you desolate forever. Your cities will never be rebuilt. Then you will know that I am the LORD. (Ezekiel 35:7-9 NLT)
I could go on...
Now, Tacdavey, QPQ:
Prove god created the universe.
Bring your proof, that you keep banging on about.
Originally posted by Mindship
Is not your sufficiently powerful being completely hypothetical? At least we have a psychological tool and instructional methodology which exposes this hypothetical transcendent level for anyone to see; whereas (currently) with our astronomical tools we find nothing: we have zilch to indicate any intelligent ET life at all, let alone a super-ET. What are the limits for assumption in this thought experiment?
Well, to a degree it is hypothetical, yes, however no more than the infinitely powerful being, less so really. Someone brought up Occam's Razor before, that's basically what I am illustrating. Anything that God (whose traits are still very loosely defined, as dadudemon has not yet explained it, however this "God" seems to have one main it created the universe and us) can show us is not prove to us of his existence but the minimum "sufficiently powerful being" able to do that, or if that happens to be easier (which i think it might be), the minimum "sufficiently powerful being" able to make you believe that.
To explain myself more, the question was posed to me as "can't you think of a way God can prove himself to you", which i can't, not in my current limited state. For me to even be able to grasp what he could perhaps do he would have to change my perception completely, which defeats the purpose of proving it to "me".
I do not believe in a spiritual eye, and I definitely do not currently have access to such a sense, so from my current POV, it will always be much likelier that I have been brainwashed to believe it.
Though, again, dadudemon said it is easy for him to think of 8 different ways, for God to prove himself to us, I would be very interested what he considers to be these ways and if they always include the "but only if he gives you much superior senses than you have now), the first one "show me he created the universe" is obviously lacking as it is basically just a repetition of the initial challenge that he prove himself to be the creator.
Originally posted by Bardock42I was going in this direction:
Well, to a degree it is hypothetical, yes, however no more than the infinitely powerful being, less so really. Someone brought up Occam's Razor before, that's basically what I am illustrating.
In simplest terms, I was seeing this as:
Here it is, but what is it? - vs - We know what it is, but where is it?
However, I understand what you're saying, and I agree that Occam's Razor operates more in your favor here than mine (ie, introducing a transcendent level is multiplying entities). Anytime I take the transcendent side, I know I'm fighting an uphill battle.
Originally posted by Bardock42Actually, I agree with this sentiment (not just about you, but anyone) and would've commented on it earlier, but then, dadudemon threw in his assumption of spirit, and I couldn't resist going with that.
To explain myself more, the question was posed to me as "can't you think of a way God can prove himself to you", which i can't, not in my current limited state.
Originally posted by Bardock42The whole point of meditation is, in effect, to change one's perception. But then, is one open to accepting the direct experience of what occurs as amenable to scientific method, even if the experience is nonempirical? This brings up what is meant by proof. But in deference to this thread, I will limit it to empirical.
For me to even be able to grasp what he could perhaps do he would have to change my perception completely, which defeats the purpose of proving it to "me".
Originally posted by Bardock42Understood. I guess this sort of answers the question I just posed above.
I do not believe in a spiritual eye, and I definitely do not currently have access to such a sense, so from my current POV, it will always be much likelier that I have been brainwashed to believe it.
Originally posted by Bardock42Actually, I'd be curious, too. Though if he is relying on a transcendent perception, as I had mentioned earlier (and you're pointing out now with me) that is problematic in its own right.
Though, again, dadudemon said it is easy for him to think of 8 different ways, for God to prove himself to us, I would be very interested what he considers to be these ways and if they always include the "but only if he gives you much superior senses than you have now), the first one "show me he created the universe" is obviously lacking as it is basically just a repetition of the initial challenge that he prove himself to be the creator.