Gun Kata Blade versus Selene the bullet curver

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
WTF difference does it make if the bullet curves on the way to it's target? If Selene is standing at point A and fires on Blade, who is at point B, the bullet still starts and ends exactly where it would if she had fired it in a straight line (traditional trajectory.)
.

Because it's about knowing where the bullet's coming from and staying out of its way...If you statistically know that a bullet travels in a straight line then you know that if you are to the left or right of that straight line then you can guarantee you'll be out of it's trajectory....If it can come at you from any angle in a full 360 rotation around you as well as from above then how can you predict its path and guarantee that when you move you wont simply be moving somewhere else along the bullet's trajectory?

Once again...a trajectory isn't where a bullet ends up...It's the path it takes to get there...GK is about knowing that path which you simply can't do if the bullet can come from any angle from the shooters position.

Regardless....what exactly is the point of this thread anyway? Why not just have the characters fight with the skills they actually possess in their respective films

Originally posted by jaden101
Because it's about knowing where the bullet's coming from and staying out of its way

...If you statistically know that a bullet travels in a straight line then you know that if you are to the left or right of that straight line then you can guarantee you'll be out of it's trajectory....If it can come at you from any angle in a full 360 rotation around you as well as from above then how can you predict its path and guarantee that when you move you wont simply be moving somewhere else along the bullet's trajectory?

Once again...a trajectory isn't where a bullet ends up...It's the path it takes to get there...GK is about knowing that path which you simply can't do if the bullet can come from any angle from the shooters position.

Regardless....what exactly is the point of this thread anyway? Why not just have the characters fight with the skills they actually possess in their respective films

So the bullet curves on the way to Blade. So? It STARTS and ENDS exactly where it would if Selene had fired it in a straight line. Again, by curving the bullet, the flight time is increased. Longer flight time= More time for Blade to Gun kata out of it's way.

Originally posted by jaden101
Because it's about knowing where the bullet's coming from and staying out of its way...If you statistically know that a bullet travels in a straight line then you know that if you are to the left or right of that straight line then you can guarantee you'll be out of it's trajectory....If it can come at you from any angle in a full 360 rotation around you as well as from above then how can you predict its path and guarantee that when you move you wont simply be moving somewhere else along the bullet's trajectory?

Once again...a trajectory isn't where a bullet ends up...It's the path it takes to get there...GK is about knowing that path which you simply can't do if the bullet can come from any angle from the shooters position.

Like I said, those points were addressed, already: it's rather useless to curve the bullet against someone that can use Gun Kata really well like Preston. The curved trajectory of the bullet barely makes any difference when it comes to dodging it.

Originally posted by jaden101
Regardless....what exactly is the point of this thread anyway? Why not just have the characters fight with the skills they actually possess in their respective films

100% Cosigned. I don't like these types of matchups.

Because Blade vs Selene was already done.

Like I said, those points were addressed, already: it's rather useless to curve the bullet against someone that can use Gun Kata really well like Preston. The curved trajectory of the bullet barely makes any difference when it comes to dodging it.

He doesn't dodge bullets...He simply knows what direction they would travel and stays out of the way of those trajectories.

Shall we go through exactly what it says in the film?

Through analysis of thousands of recorded gun fights the cleric has determined that the geometric distribution of antagonists in any gun battle is a statistically predictable element. The Gun Kata treats the gun as a total weapon. Each fluid position representing a maximum kill zone inflicting maximum damage on the maximum number of opponents while keeping the defender clear of STATISTICALLY TRADITIONAL TRAJECTORIES OF RETURN FIRE.

Given that curved shots are utterly out of the realm of anything that gun kata has been employed against then how can they be predictable?...Curved shots aren't statistically traditional trajectories thus rendering gun kata useless against them.

Not only this but how would a extremely fast moving vampire fit the description of statistically predictable antagonist?

Exactly. The bullet is coming point A (Selene's gun) and will be arriving at point B (Blade's face.) What difference does it make if the bullet curves between point A and B? The starting and ending point remain the same. Hell, the bullet could do figure eights and the starting and ending point would be the same.

You're completely and utterly ignoring what gun kata addresses. It has NOTHING to do with where the bullet starts and finishes...GK relies completely on knowing the path it takes between those points and staying out of that path...You can't do that with certainty when you don't know which direction the bullet is coming from.

Put it this way...If I were to shoot at a target (presume that i'm a perfect "traditional" shot) and you were to stand near the target and not get hit you would know to stand to either side of the target because if you stood between me and the target you would be within its trajectory...if you stood behind the target there would be the danger that it could pass through the target and hit you as you would still be on the same trajectory.

Now...If I could stand directly in front of that target at the same distance but I could make the bullet hit it from any angle how would you know where to stand to stay out of the way of the bullet and not get hit?...How could you know for certain what the trajectory of that bullet would be?...You would employ your knowledge of trajectories as per your gun kata training and stand to either side of the target but what use is that when I can make the bullet come from either side of the target...you'd still be in the bullet's trajectory so your knowledge of where to stand to not get hit becomes completely useless

Originally posted by jaden101

You're completely and utterly ignoring what gun kata addresses. It has NOTHING to do with where the bullet starts and finishes...GK relies completely on knowing the path it takes between those points and staying out of that path...You can't do that with certainty when you don't know which direction the bullet is coming from.

Put it this way...If I were to shoot at a target (presume that i'm a perfect "traditional" shot) and you were to stand near the target and not get hit you would know to stand to either side of the target because if you stood between me and the target you would be within its trajectory...if you stood behind the target there would be the danger that it could pass through the target and hit you as you would still be on the same trajectory.

Now...If I could stand directly in front of that target at the same distance but I could make the bullet hit it from any angle how would you know where to stand to stay out of the way of the bullet and not get hit?...How could you know for certain what the trajectory of that bullet would be?...You would employ your knowledge of trajectories as per your gun kata training and stand to either side of the target but what use is that when I can make the bullet come from either side of the target...you'd still be in the bullet's trajectory so your knowledge of where to stand to not get hit becomes completely useless

Have a bullet curver and a Gun Kata master stand side by side and fire simultaneously at a target 20 feet away. The curver curves his bullet, the Gun Kata gunman fires his bullet in a straight line. Which bullet hits the target first? The bullet fired from the Gun Kata user. Why? Because it travels in a straight line.

Now, if Preston can dodge bullets fired in a straight line (from 20 automatic assault rifles at one FTW), then dodging curved bullets, which take longer getting to him, from two guns, will be that much easier. Add on that Blade is much faster, and yeah. Blade wins this.

Its good to see that the members of this sub-forum are as stupid as ever. Kudos!

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
I know this. I am ignoring nothing. Preston trains in Gun Kata based on bullets traveling from point A (his opponent) to point B (where they are aiming.) These bullets travel in a straight line. A straight line is the shortest distance between two points.

Have a bullet curver and a Gun Kata master stand side by side and fire simultaneously at a target 20 feet away. The curver curves his bullet, the Gun Kata gunman fires his bullet in a straight line. Which bullet hits the target first? The bullet fired from the Gun Kata user. Why? Because it travels in a straight line.

Now, if Preston can dodge bullets fired in a straight line (from 20 automatic assault rifles at one FTW), then dodging curved bullets, which take longer getting to him, from two guns, will be that much easier. Add on that Blade is much faster, and yeah. Blade wins this.

Well if completely ignoring what is stated during the gun kata training scene in Equilibrium makes you feel better then be my guest. But you're still wrong...If you don't understand why you're wrong by now then there's no point in trying to explain it any further.

It doesn't matter if Blade's vampiric speed and agility aids in his Gunkata ability to shoot a bullet from point A to B at the fastest possible time.

Selene in an early scene in Underworld evolution sped through trees at burst speed. And while doing it is curving bullets into his body.

Blade may be shooting perfect straight bullet lines but he's aiming at air all the while receiving bullets.

I hate this thread already.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Its good to see that the members of this sub-forum are as stupid as ever. Kudos!

We've told you before we wont spit roast you no matter how many times you ask.

I wasn't talking about you. You're 100% right.

Originally posted by jaden101
Well if completely ignoring what is stated during the gun kata training scene in Equilibrium makes you feel better then be my guest. But you're still wrong...If you don't understand why you're wrong by now then there's no point in trying to explain it any further.

You're saying that all he had to work with was the bullet flying in a straight line? You are taking the definition of Gun Kata WAY too literally.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equilibrium_%28film%29#Gun_Kata

Gun Kata
Main article: Gun fu

Gun Kata is a fictional gun-fighting martial art discipline that is a significant part of the film. It is based upon the premise that, given the positions of the participants in a gun battle, the trajectories of fire are statistically predictable. By pure memorization of the positions, one can fire at the most likely location of an enemy without aiming at him in the traditional sense of pointing a gun at a specific target. By the same token, the trajectories of incoming fire are also statistically predictable, so by assuming the appropriate stance, one can keep one's body clear of the most likely way of enemy bullets.

The Gun Kata shown in Equilibrium is a hybrid mix of Kurt Wimmer's own style of Gun Kata (which he invented in his backyard)[2] and the martial arts style of the choreographer. They disagreed on the appropriate form of Gun Kata, with Kurt Wimmer advocating a smoother, flowing style and the choreographer supporting a more rigid style. Much of the Gun Kata seen in the film is based on the choreographer's style.[3] Kurt Wimmer's Gun Kata is dispersed sparsely throughout the movie, most notably in the introductory scene with the silhouetted man, played by Wimmer himself, practicing with dual pistols.

the trajectories of incoming fire are also statistically predictable, so by assuming the appropriate stance, one can keep one's body clear of the most likely way of enemy bullets.

Now, pay close attention to that last part. You're right, Preston avoids being hit by guessing the flight path/time of incoming fire. He also avoids being hit by knowing where his opponent is shooting from, when they shoot. This enables him to guess when and where the bullet will strike.

So Blade and Selene are mixing it up, trading fire, she is curving her bullets and he is using Gun Kata. What difference does it make if her bullets are curving? All that really matters is where she is when she fires so that Blade can guess when and where the bullet will hit.

Now.....Having said that, I must state again that Selene's biggest weapon here is her speed and her adrenaline boost. If she uses them properly, she wins this 9/10. If she relies on bullet curving more than she relies on her speed, she loses 9/10.

Selene can shoot sideways, in a completely different direction from Blade and still curve it around to hit him. How the hell can Gun Kata predict the trajectory of that?

Because Blade can gun kata away from it. The ending point of the bullet will be the same as if she fired it in a straight line. If anything, by curving the bullet it gives Blade more time to use gun kata.

Straight line>>>>curved line.

ugh3

The ending point will not be the same. Instead of going from point A to point B, the bullet will go straight to point C. Blade, who has dodged point B, still gets hit at point C.

And by pointing her gun in another direction Blade will not know where point B even is, so he won't be able to dodge it anyway.

Originally posted by Nephthys
ugh3

The ending point will not be the same. Instead of going from point A to point B, the bullet will go straight to point C. Blade, who has dodged point B, still gets hit at point C.

Point A: Selene and her gun.

Point B: The curving flight path of the bullet.

Point C: Blade's afro.

The bullet still is fired and arrives at it's target as if it were fired in a straight line. What happens inbetween is irrelevant.

When a bullet curver fires their weapon, they have in mind where they want the bullet to hit. If they want the bullet to curve and hit their opponent in the right eye, the bullet hits exactly where they want it too. Thing is, if their opponent is fast enough to avoid being hit by 30 machien gun toting highly trained killers, odds of being hit by one person wielding two guns is highly unlikely.

Now, pay close attention to that last part. You're right, Preston avoids being hit by guessing the flight path/time of incoming fire. He also avoids being hit by knowing where his opponent is shooting from, when they shoot. This enables him to guess when and where the bullet will strike.

It's blatently stated in the film that it's nothing to do with guessing where the opponent is or where the trajectory of the bullet is. Each body position is based on the statistics learned from previous gun fights...The way multiple opponents are distributed in a room is a statistically predictable element. From that knowledge they then add on the layer of bullet trajectories from those same gun fights and then the body positions are devised to stay out of those predictable trajectories.

Once again...There is absolutely nothing predictable about a trajectory that can go from anything from a straight line to a full 360 degree rotation. By the very fact that Gun Kata as it is in Equilibrium will never have encountered a gun fight with curved bullets or opponents with superhuman speed then how can those possibly fit in to Gun Kata's basic principles of using statistics to know where your opponents are and using knowledge of straight line bullet trajectories?

And why are you having me read an article about gun-fu as a basic movie martial art when I've already quoted the exact words from the training scene regarding Gun Kata

The bit you've highlighted is exactly my point...STATISTICALLY PREDICTABLE...But this is entirely based on the gun fights based in the Equilibrium universe which has never had curved bullet trajectories...So how can those statistics incorporate something which hasn't been encountered in that universe?

The bullet still is fired and arrives at it's target as if it were fired in a straight line. What happens inbetween is irrelevant.

You can keep repeating this point all you want but it's completely wrong and I've proven that by using the training scene to give the definition of gun kata using TRAJECTORIES (or as you would put it...what happens in between) and the dictionary definition of trajectories.

You're wrong...It's that simple...I don't see why it's so difficult to understand what a bullet trajectory is and how it's relevant given what is stated blatently on screen.

Originally posted by jaden101
It's blatently stated in the film that it's nothing to do with guessing where the opponent is or where the trajectory of the bullet is. Each body position is based on the statistics learned from previous gun fights...The way multiple opponents are distributed in a room is a statistically predictable element. From that knowledge they then add on the layer of bullet trajectories from those same gun fights and then the body positions are devised to stay out of those predictable trajectories.

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His opponents (30ish of them)all firing on him with automatic rifles. He knew when and where they would fire. He knew where and when the bullets would strike. If the bullets had curved, the outcome would have remained the same.

Once again...There is absolutely nothing predictable about a trajectory that can go from anything from a straight line to a full 360 degree rotation. By the very fact that Gun Kata as it is in Equilibrium will never have encountered a gun fight with curved bullets or opponents with superhuman speed then how can those possibly fit in to Gun Kata's basic principles of using statistics to know where your opponents are and using knowledge of straight line bullet trajectories?

And why are you having me read an article about gun-fu as a basic movie martial art when I've already quoted the exact words from the training scene regarding Gun Kata

The bit you've highlighted is exactly my point...STATISTICALLY PREDICTABLE...But this is entirely based on the gun fights based in the Equilibrium universe which has never had curved bullet trajectories...So how can those statistics incorporate something which hasn't been encountered in that universe?

What's predictable with Gun Kata (predictable= Guessing)is where and when a bullet will strike.

By guessing the flight trajectories. You can't predict where a bullets going to end up if the barrel isn't even aimed at you.