Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Alright.Considering Zoom (whose CIS stops him from ragestomping virtually every character he fights) while it is a good feat, let's not blow it out of proportion. Case in point, if Zoom wanted to beat Diana, he would. Don't see how you can argue the point. I can't think of anytime Diana has actually fought at lightspeeds. Display lightspeed reflexes? Most definitely.
Her movement speed coupled with skill and reflexes make this tough for Bill, but if (really when) Diana gets tagged, it's going to hurt, and badly at that. Her bracers will protect against most of Bill's ranged attacks, but up close, her stats and skills aren't so far beyond Bill that she'll avoid every attack of his. Considering how they fight in character, I see the first few minutes of the fight being pretty even until Bill connects a blow, in which case Diana will be hurting pretty badly. Conversely, Diana's blows, while definitely powerful in her own right, will have less of an impact than vice versa. Diana can't afford to fight Bill head on and hope her speed/defenses enable her to evade or endure his attacks.
Concerning her tiara and lasso...the tiara will do some damage if it connects with Bill, though Stormbreaker is a pretty good defensive tool in its own right. The lasso can prove to be Bill's undoing, but you can say that about almost anyone getting caught in its grasp.
All in all, I give Bill 6-7/10. Her power output and versatility and his own defensive options give him an advantage against Diana, but she is by no means easily taken out by him.
The fight will go as follows:
Bill shoots a beam at WW, she deflects it back at him.
They get close and engage in h2h.
Bill swings, Diana blocks/dodges and then counters with a serious combo (using pressure points).
Bill is stunned. Diana then casually lassos him or continues to combo him ftw.
Superman is a much harder fight (because of his speed).
Jakethebank, that is the most illogical thing said in this thread. Why would the stronger, harder hitting more durable WW be hurt worse when struck by the weaker, not-as-hard-hitting less durable Bill? Even if she wasn't faster, she's still stronger. When you add her speed into her already superior strength, it makes her able to hit even that much harder. It's a wash. The difference in speed between her and him is about the same as a peak human and quicksilver. Like i said before, her blunt force durability is probably equal to cap marvel(but a normal guy with a sharp knife could stab her). His hammer, IF he lands a single blow with it, isn't too much for her to handle. BUT....he's not hitting her with it. His only chance is a lucky shot or some omniblast. Otherwise...-fart-. Get over it marvel fans, dc characters are usually on a diff level.
Originally posted by carver9
http://m673.photobucket.com/albumview/albums/galanphotos/brb_strike1.jpg.html?src=www&action=view¤t=brb_strike1.jpg
Click it long pig... it will help you.
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Originally posted by long pig
Jakethebank, that is the most illogical thing said in this thread. Why would the stronger, harder hitting more durable WW be hurt worse when struck by the weaker, not-as-hard-hitting less durable Bill? Even if she wasn't faster, she's still stronger. When you add her speed into her already superior strength, it makes her able to hit even that much harder. It's a wash. The difference in speed between her and him is about the same as a peak human and quicksilver. Like i said before, her blunt force durability is probably equal to cap marvel(but a normal guy with a sharp knife could stab her). His hammer, IF he lands a single blow with it, isn't too much for her to handle. BUT....he's not hitting her with it. His only chance is a lucky shot or some omniblast. Otherwise...-fart-. Get over it marvel fans, dc characters are usually on a diff level.
Based on what is she physically stronger than Bill? Based on what does she strike harder than Bill? Based on what is she more durable than Bill? I've read virtually all of WW from George Perez' reintroduction of the charrie post crisis to the current meh worthy JMS run; I can't think of any feats which clearly make her superior to Bill on any of those aspects. Speed, skill, and reflexes, most definitely, but strength, striking power, durability? I sincerely doubt it.
Do you really think Diana's fist does more damage than someone - let's assume he's her equal in strength (even though I believe he's superior) using a melee weapon such as Stormbreaker? If they were to trade blows, one right after the other, do you think Diana would come out looking less troubled? Speed as in how it pertains to combat reflexes and the like, sure. Flight speed, no.
Based on his feats, and the abilities of both characters here, yes, Bill is going to strike Diana and more than once. It has nothing to do with being DC or Marvel, which is a poor excuse at the end of the day to discredit another poster's argument by labeling them as pro-one company or another.
There's nothing Diana has done to suggest she fights Bill and walks away unscathed. To even argue the point is asinine.
Originally posted by carver9
Jake... going by feats... would you put Bill above Thor. Imo, his latest showings pretty much puts him on another level imo.
I wouldn't, Carv, and for a few reasons.
1.) Bill generally has more of a reason to cut loose and not hold back as he appears in more cosmic/space themed stories in which there's no plot device reason to curb his power. Thor, since his revival, has been stuck on Earth for the most part, and as such, is forced to hold back a great deal, something which has been stated and shown through out his entire history. But when Thor does go cosmic or larger than life, he still gets pretty epic. See Chaos War for example. And if Astonishing Thor is any indicator, we'll be seeing more of Thor in that light for a while.
2.) Thor's "classic" feats are still canon to him and as such, still count.
3.) Bill, at best, is portrayed as an equal to Thor and has only really been considered a superior when it comes to heat based environments.
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
I wouldn't, Carv, and for a few reasons.1.) Bill generally has more of a reason to cut loose and not hold back as he appears in more cosmic/space themed stories in which there's no plot device reason to curb his power. Thor, since his revival, has been stuck on Earth for the most part, and as such, is forced to hold back a great deal, something which has been stated and shown through out his entire history. But when Thor does go cosmic or larger than life, he still gets pretty epic. See Chaos War for example. And if Astonishing Thor is any indicator, we'll be seeing more of Thor in that light for a while.
2.) Thor's "classic" feats are still canon to him and as such, still count.
3.) Bill, at best, is portrayed as an equal to Thor and has only really been considered a superior when it comes to heat based environments.
His destructive power along with his strength just seems pretty much up there imo. He has crack open Galactus armor and survived 2 initial, pissed off attacks from Galactus (was only stunned). He destroyed 2 planets during one fight... he tanked 2 planets exploding on him... survived in the heart of a sun and acted as if he didn't feel it. Shrugged off the pull of a black hole... was inside the core of Stardust attack and was shrugging it off like it was nothing... then he defeated Omega, who was classified as a universal threat and he did it off of power alone. Then let's not forget about his recent "black sun" feat.
Bill is pretty high on the totem pole imo.
Thor classic feats tend to revolve more on hyperbolic statements vs actions imo compared to what Bill has done on panel.
Originally posted by carver9
His destructive power along with his strength just seems pretty much up there imo. He has crack open Galactus armor and survived 2 initial, pissed off attacks from Galactus (was only stunned). He destroyed 2 planets during one fight... he tanked 2 planets exploding on him... survived in the heart of a sun and acted as if he didn't feel it. Shrugged off the pull of a black hole... was inside the core of Stardust attack and was shrugging it off like it was nothing... then he defeated Omega, who was classified as a universal threat and he did it off of power alone. Then let's not forget about his recent "black sun" feat.Bill is pretty high on the totem pole imo.
Thor classic feats tend to revolve more on hyperbolic statements vs actions imo compared to what Bill has done on panel.
Yes, and those are great for Bill, but virtually everything you've described, Thor has replicated with his own feats or has done something equal in power/scale, so they don't really portray him being > Thor.
He is high on the totem pole, he's a high herald.
I can see how you can get that impression when Thor is monologuing, but the majority of his epic feats are pretty clear cut.
Didn't WW help carry the weight of the entire universe along with other heroes? Can't recall what exactly happened, though. When I said ' get over it marvel fans' I wasn't calling you a fanboy, in fact I was counting myself as part of them. All i meant by it is the rampant denial WE Marvel fans seem to be in when it comes to OUR high level characters and DC's. They are almost always in another league physically speaking. How common is it to hear 'I hate Superman because he's way too powerful.' followed by 'Superman gets owned....' when referring to some medium level herald. It wouldn't be that hard to find WW feats of strength that surpass even Thor, who is absoluty superior to bill physically. And arguing speed equality is just stupid and you know it. And yes, WW hitting Bill at near LS with her fists a hundred times a second would do far more damage than bill trying and failing to hit WW with his hammer. Without a doubt. It's just...you can't possibally believe what you're saying here.
Originally posted by long pig
Didn't WW help carry the weight of the entire universe along with other heroes? Can't recall what exactly happened, though. When I said ' get over it marvel fans' I wasn't calling you a fanboy, in fact I was counting myself as part of them. All i meant by it is the rampant denial WE Marvel fans seem to be in when it comes to OUR high level characters and DC's. They are almost always in another league physically speaking. How common is it to hear 'I hate Superman because he's way too powerful.' followed by 'Superman gets owned....' when referring to some medium level herald. It wouldn't be that hard to find WW feats of strength that surpass even Thor, who is absoluty superior to bill physically. And arguing speed equality is just stupid and you know it. And yes, WW hitting Bill at near LS with her fists a hundred times a second would do far more damage than bill trying and failing to hit WW with his hammer. Without a doubt. It's just...you can't possibally believe what you're saying here.
She's helped towed Earth and the moon before, both with help and as such it's next to impossible to determine how much she contributed outside of "a lot of weight". She's helped lifted the Spectre who was described as weighing "eternity", which again, is unquantifiable, albeit a good feat of strength. These feats in of themselves don't put her beyond Bill in terms of strength, not based on his own feats and who he has matched or stalemated in pure strength (ie. Thor).
And while there are certainly posters who do dislike Superman for being "uber" or because he's DC, it's not a majority, and for every diehard anti-DC poster you have, there's an equally overzealous DC supporter. Which is why bringing up company bias is really irrelevant because we all know there's enough to go around, Marvel or DC. As someone who reads comics from both companies, Superman included, it's really tiring to hear this "Oh, there's some kind of KMC anti-Superman/DC movement" style of argument (not accusing you of saying this, btw) and attempting to paint the overall vibe of the forums as some place that holds some irrational grudge against the character and company he represents, when in reality, it's a handful of posters. And in the same breath, conviently ignoring or refusing to point out the sheer ludicrous of people who believe Superman solos Galactus or that he'll operate and use his speeds at levels never shown in comics and to argue otherwise is "hating Superman/DC." Case in point, there's zealots and biased and self-righteous posters representing both companies and whomever their favorite characters are. Thor, Hulk, Surfer, Superman, Flash, Green Lanterns, etc. It's everywhere.
Which of WW's strength feats surpass Thor? And even if she did have them, it's certainly not the norm, not based on her character.
Based on what is Diana going to hit someone a hundred times a second, much less anywhere close to lightspeed? Has she ever displayed this kind of speed or tactic in a comic book? If so, please, show me or tell me the issue; I'd genuinely appreciate it if Diana has done this. Further more, you're assuming, I don't know, Bill stands there and lets such a thing happen to him, which is pretty much downplaying him. It's debatable than Diana even possesses planetary striking power based on her feats - we can make guesses, but prove it? - whereas Bill does. Diana will block several of his attacks, sure, but he's going to hit here, either though melee, a hammer toss (which can go FTL as well as home on an opponent), massive AoE style attacks, BFRing to a realm/environment of his choosing, etc.
I believe what I'm saying because I've actually read an extraordinary amount of Wonder Woman comics and I'm pretty sure I have a pretty damn good handle on the character, and the idea she walks all over Bill for a massive majority is pretty unfounded.
Bill has far too many options for Diana to overcome with her advantages for the majority here.
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
She's helped towed Earth and the moon before, both with help and as such it's next to impossible to determine how much she contributed outside of "a lot of weight". She's helped lifted the Spectre who was described as weighing "eternity", which again, is unquantifiable, albeit a good feat of strength. These feats in of themselves don't put her beyond Bill in terms of strength, not based on his own feats and who he has matched or stalemated in pure strength (ie. Thor).And while there are certainly posters who do dislike Superman for being "uber" or because he's DC, it's not a majority, and for every diehard anti-DC poster you have, there's an equally overzealous DC supporter. Which is why bringing up company bias is really irrelevant because we all know there's enough to go around, Marvel or DC. As someone who reads comics from both companies, Superman included, it's really tiring to hear this "Oh, there's some kind of KMC anti-Superman/DC movement" style of argument (not accusing you of saying this, btw) and attempting to paint the overall vibe of the forums as some place that holds some irrational grudge against the character and company he represents, when in reality, it's a handful of posters. And in the same breath, conviently ignoring or refusing to point out the sheer ludicrous of people who believe Superman solos Galactus or that he'll operate and use his speeds at levels never shown in comics and to argue otherwise is "hating Superman/DC." Case in point, there's zealots and biased and self-righteous posters representing both companies and whomever their favorite characters are. Thor, Hulk, Surfer, Superman, Flash, Green Lanterns, etc. It's everywhere.
Which of WW's strength feats surpass Thor? And even if she did have them, it's certainly not the norm, not based on her character.
Based on what is Diana going to hit someone a hundred times a second, much less anywhere close to lightspeed? Has she ever displayed this kind of speed or tactic in a comic book? If so, please, show me or tell me the issue; I'd genuinely appreciate it if Diana has done this. Further more, you're assuming, I don't know, Bill stands there and lets such a thing happen to him, which is pretty much downplaying him. It's debatable than Diana even possesses planetary striking power based on her feats - we can make guesses, but prove it? - whereas Bill does. Diana will block several of his attacks, sure, but he's going to hit here, either though melee, a hammer toss (which can go FTL as well as home on an opponent), massive AoE style attacks, BFRing to a realm/environment of his choosing, etc.
I believe what I'm saying because I've actually read an extraordinary amount of Wonder Woman comics and I'm pretty sure I have a pretty damn good handle on the character, and the idea she walks all over Bill for a massive majority is pretty unfounded.
Bill has far too many options for Diana to overcome with her advantages for the majority here.
I hate extaordinary/great debators... it makes my stomach hurt.
Good post by the way... very good post.
