^ My sentiments echo this. I certainly won't argue that Fisto and co. were exact equals with Obi-Wan or Anakin, but I have a hard time believing they're not on the same level. I mean, Mark A. Ragnos doesn't have anything approaching the feats to be considered the strongest Sith ever, but I think an examination of all the evidence would lend credence to the idea that he's top tier.
Originally posted by truejedi
well, specifically i meant Yoda and Mace were on a tier with Sidious, and Anakin and Kenobi were on a tier with each other ... and then there was everyone else.
Yea, that mirrors my perception. Those two tiers, followed by Kit Fisto/Shaak Ti/Plo Koon/etc. in a "super awesome masters" tier.
Originally posted by truejedi
because Kenobi scared him so badly... : )anyway, believe what you will i suppose. I am more of the opinion that Yoda/Mace/Anakin/Kenobi were on a firmly different tier.
^ To be quite honest, Kit Fisto is doing very well against Grievous here. It's oddly contradictory to The Cestus Deception, which details clearly that he uses Shii-Cho and not dual blades, but his adaptation and coolness in the battle is considerable. Obi-Wan's mastery of Soresu really puts him above most Jedi in the series coupled with his considerable experience though, and while Kit Fisto was arguably just ahead of AotC Obi-Wan, RotS Obi-Wan is a far greater animal. I can't see the likes of Kit Fisto holding his own against Anakin for a grueling ten minutes or so.
Originally posted by Stealth Moose
Kit Fisto vs Grievous^ To be quite honest, Kit Fisto is doing very well against Grievous here. It's oddly contradictory to The Cestus Deception, which details clearly that he uses Shii-Cho and not dual blades, but his adaptation and coolness in the battle is considerable. Obi-Wan's mastery of Soresu really puts him above most Jedi in the series coupled with his considerable experience though, and while Kit Fisto was arguably just ahead of AotC Obi-Wan, RotS Obi-Wan is a far greater animal. I can't see the likes of Kit Fisto holding his own against Anakin for a grueling ten minutes or so.
The show is T-canon, btw. A new classification that's between G-canon and C-canon.
It's how you pretend that Visas is a credible source in assessing Nihilus's power while discounting that Vader is a credible source in assessing Sidious's power.
Or act like your interpretation of what happened onscreen is the only possible interpretation while at the same time expecting us to assume a high level of ability for comic book characters that are never shown to move so much as a muscle.
Or how I will defend Luke's "Blackhole at the center of the galaxy couldn't move him" feat as literal while saying that Revan's "Heart of the Force" is poetic.
We all do it, but we never admit it. (heck you will probably deny the two example above while agreeing that I have incriminated myself... that's just how this place works.)
It's how you pretend that Visas is a credible source in assessing Nihilus's power while discounting that Vader is a credible source in assessing Sidious's power.
Apples and Oranges. Visas is talking solely about what she's seen about Nihilus. Vader is blanket stating 'hes the best ever', when he absolutely can't be the judge of that, not having seen most Sith.
Or how I will defend Luke's "Blackhole at the center of the galaxy couldn't move him" feat as literal while saying that Revan's "Heart of the Force" is poetic.
We all discussed this line. In the end it was agreed that it was too deliberate and posed as too much of fact to be taken as hyperbole. Even Gideon agreed in the end if I remember.
Originally posted by truejedi
It's how you pretend that Visas is a credible source in assessing Nihilus's power while discounting that Vader is a credible source in assessing Sidious's power.Or act like your interpretation of what happened onscreen is the only possible interpretation while at the same time expecting us to assume a high level of ability for comic book characters that are never shown to move so much as a muscle.
Or how I will defend Luke's "Blackhole at the center of the galaxy couldn't move him" feat as literal while saying that Revan's "Heart of the Force" is poetic.
We all do it, but we never admit it. (heck you will probably deny the two example above while agreeing that I have incriminated myself... that's just how this place works.)
If you say that you are biased, but then do nothing about it, that doesn't make you less wrong. Admitting a mistake and then continuing to do it is not an effective rhetorical or rational strategy.
Personally, I am convinced that Visas is an effective source, and I would suspect that Vader has a good understanding of Sidious's power, as well. What quote was it that you are talking about, exactly?
(I have been operating in good faith. The fact that your actions have been exclusively facetious over the past few months doesn't mean that everyone's were.)
N.
Apples and Oranges. Visas is talking solely about what she's seen about Nihilus. Vader is blanket stating 'hes the best ever', when he absolutely can't be the judge of that, not having seen most Sith.
No, it's not apples and oranges. Visas is speculating based on what she's seen from Nihilus and flat out admits to such. Vader, a Sith Lord and Jedi Knight whose Force-related career dwarfs that of Visas, makes an equally speculative comment. If hers is an informed opinion, why wouldn't his be?
N.
We all discussed this line. In the end it was agreed that it was too deliberate and posed as too much of fact to be taken as hyperbole. Even Gideon agreed in the end if I remember.
The only reason that I do not support the line about Luke being the black hole is because I am unaware of any corroboration that would indicate Luke is capable of such unimaginable power. I interpret the sentence to simply mean that Raynar Thul was unable to muster sufficient power to remove him -- which is still an impressive feat. Likewise, I interpret the line from Dooku about Palpatine being a "black hole of the Force" to simply mean that he was extremely powerful in the dark side.
Z.
Personally, I am convinced that Visas is an effective source, and I would suspect that Vader has a good understanding of Sidious's power, as well. What quote was it that you are talking about, exactly?
That Palpatine was the most powerful Sith who ever existed.
Originally posted by RagingBoner
No, it's not apples and oranges. Visas is speculating based on what she's seen from Nihilus and flat out admits to such. Vader, a Sith Lord and Jedi Knight whose Force-related career dwarfs that of Visas, makes an equally speculative comment. If hers is an informed opinion, why wouldn't his be?
Which is why I'm not saying taht Visas should be taken as flat out fact, no questions asked, but rather that we need to logically look at what she's saying to collaborate or tear down her words. Vader on teh other hand has absolutely no fvcking way that he could possibly know what the fvck he's talking about. Sidious is the mostest powerful huh? He's only ever met 2-3 other sith ever! He simply can't make that judgement. He's in no position to. He doesn't even begin to have a point of reference. His opinion isn't informed. At all. His thoughts on the matter are complete bullshit end of story.
The only reason that I do not support the line about Luke being the black hole is because I am unaware of any corroboration that would indicate Luke is capable of such unimaginable power. I interpret the sentence to simply mean that Raynar Thul was unable to muster sufficient power to remove him -- which is still an impressive feat. Likewise, I interpret the line from Dooku about Palpatine being a "black hole of the Force" to simply mean that he was extremely powerful in the dark side.
So...... do you think the quote is literal or not?
Originally posted by RagingBoner
No, it's not apples and oranges. Visas is speculating based on what she's seen from Nihilus and flat out admits to such. Vader, a Sith Lord and Jedi Knight whose Force-related career dwarfs that of Visas, makes an equally speculative comment. If hers is an informed opinion, why wouldn't his be?
Going out on a limb, I think the crucial difference is that Visas's remarks are limited only to things about which she is intimately acquainted. She knows what N. is capable of, and she alerts the player to his abilities which she has seen firsthand.
Vader is not a noted scholar, let alone scholar. He does not have personal knowledge of the Ancient Sith or really any other Sith at all, except for Dooku. His perspective on Sidious's abilities is admissible, but comparative statements that involve people he's never met are less authoritative.