Havoc vs Starfire

Yo.

sorry to say, but in comics it doesnt really matter too much when U get past a certain STR-lvl in regards to who can affect whom, especially when U have things like watching Cap America punch out cl20 class guys when his blows shouldnt be doing anything close to it.......and it just reminds me that STR-lvls only come into play in relation to who's writing the story & which makes for the more exciting picture. if Colossus or Thing punched Hulk, he *would* send him flying, and the same goes for yur DT/MM scenario as well.

as for the "refution scenario" U depicted above, all I can say is that Kory in general has (for the most part to me anyways) *always come off* as being stronger than Donna, so to see that happen doesnt/didnt say much.

so again, its just opinion that shes that strong, not something supported by hard fact or stated on-panel. which is fine, as long as its stated as such............

Tazer

Originally posted by long pig
So, Havock is way more powerful than ever thought? I seriously underestimated him. Same with Cap America. Now I know. I must change my vote

Originally posted by Konton
You think Ms. Marvel (typically depicted as a 70-80 class) has the strength to go h2h with classic Donna Troy?

I don't think an 80 class bruiser could lock arms with Wonder Woman. Not saying Starfire is strong enough to hurt her significantly, but I don't think anything less than a 100+ class could push her back/make her fight. You could argue that it's Starfire's skill and Wondy's holding back that made it something to look at, but Wonder was furious and, while Starfire was able to trounce Themyschera's warriors in h2h Pre-Crisis and outfight Donna 2/3 times in combat, Wonder Woman has displayed more combat finess and much more frequently.

How do you refute Donna being unable tor estrain her in the recent JLA run? Mon-El had to come in and assist, and even with the two of them (both easily 100 class) he still had to remark that she was much stronger than he anticipated.

A few years back Cyborg and Flash were both shown holding her back in a Titans trade cover. Flash is no brick, but Cyborg has been 100 class since his last official upgrade and he was struggling too. It's not "in the comic" but DC canon has referenced her as being fairly strong for a long while now.

Damn, I forgot about her locking it with WW. SF is def. class 100. Or slightly below that.

Originally posted by Tazer
Yo.

sorry to say, but in comics it doesnt really matter too much when U get past a certain STR-lvl in regards to who can affect whom, especially when U have things like watching Cap America punch out cl20 class guys when his blows shouldnt be doing anything close to it.......and it just reminds me that STR-lvls only come into play in relation to who's writing the story & which makes for the more exciting picture. if Colossus or Thing punched Hulk, he *would* send him flying, and the same goes for yur DT/MM scenario as well.

as for the "refution scenario" U depicted above, all I can say is that Kory in general has (for the most part to me anyways) *always come off* as being stronger than Donna, so to see that happen doesnt/didnt say much.

so again, its just opinion that shes that strong, not something supported by hard fact or stated on-panel. which is fine, as long as its stated as such............

Tazer

But if Donna has barely been below Diana for years... and Starfire has been stronger than Donna for years... then how is she not 100 class?

Yo.

I dont consider Donna to "have been barely below Diana for years", but if thats true then I suppose Mammoth (who has traded blows w/her over the years) is cl100 too then ,yes? would U have *anything* on-panel to support this?

Tazer

Donna has performed well in fist fights with Wondy, Etrigan, and evil Mary Marvel with little injury. She just recently pounded Superwoman a good one and has taken a direct hit from a nuke without flinching.

Donna is at least Supergirl level strength/durability wise.

Yo.

U could be cl50 and still affect a stronger person, as we see whenever Spidey fights Rhino, or when Rogue goes up against Juggs.

also, when has Donna taken a hit from a nuke w/o flinching? cuz I would say thats a REALLY high-end showing for somebody who got taken down by an arrow (in CfJ #6), and then theres *this* little gem:

http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/28/newteentitansv10221pp5.jpg

now granted, Donna been dead & back a few times, as well as having gotten some power upgrades since then..........but does the above really look like a person (persons really, cuz Kory s there too) who're just under cl100 in STR??

sorry, but I cannot agree w/that........... unless DS is cl100 as well. 😉

Tazer

Originally posted by YoungGunna
Ugh yes she is shes stronger than Donna Troy do some research

Give me a scan.

Originally posted by Tazer
Yo.

so I see, however nothing U've said here:

..........point to her being DEFINITIVELY a cl100 person. thats just yur interpretation (cuz she could be cl80 and still pull that off really.) and I give kudos to U for stating that as a *belief*, not as a fact, since there arent any.

yur belief isnt any more valid than mine, nor is it *supported* by DC canon, since theres nothing that Im aware of, in any book, that says "to survive this you must be........", but if U know of something wheres its stated directly then plz share. Im just going on my feelings on the subject here, same as U are.

Tazer

Thank you.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
Damn, I forgot about her locking it with WW. SF is def. class 100. Or slightly below that.

If you reread the issue you will see that Diana was holding back and when she was about to get serious, Dick stepped in.

I really like Kory but calling her a Class 100 is pushing it. At most she around Ms. Marvel level (close to 80 tons). Also, strength is not the thing that gonna win the fight for Kory here

Originally posted by HandOfFate
If you reread the issue you will see that Diana was holding back and when she was about to get serious, Dick stepped in.

I really like Kory but calling her a Class 100 is pushing it. At most she around Ms. Marvel level (close to 80 tons). Also, strength is not the thing that gonna win the fight for Kory here

that's why I said slightly below that. Still, Kory is pretty strong.

Originally posted by Prep-Man
that's why I said slightly below that. Still, Kory is pretty strong.

I totally agree, Kory is really strong but she ain't no Class 100. I can easily see Kory pushing 80 ton mark.....personally, I think they Ms. Marvel is Kory.

Yep, that's probably around her strength level, Ms Marvel.

Donna's nuke tanking feat is in the Wondergirl/Donna Troy respect thread.

You can't post feats of Deathstroke beating teams and say it's a good way to quantify durability or strength. You just f*cking can't. Is he faster than Flash? Is he stronger than Wondy? He's beaten both. It's a stupid argument.

Kory isn't 80 class. Let me try and reason with you.

There are several strength classes and there is a great difference between class 100 and class 100+.

100+ is inclusive of beings like Wonder Woman, Superman, MM, etc.

It doesn't mean they can lift 100 tons, it means that the amount of weight and force they can generate tops and exceeds the charts to the point of using numbers anymore being unreasonable. While these guys edge toward the higher end of the 100+ class, there are still characters in the 100+ class that don't come near to the heavyweights.

Starfire's encounter with Donna and Mon-el (a middle end 100+ and a higher tier 100+) should insinuate that she is, at the very least, a low end 100 tonner. An 80 class wouldn't even require one 100 class brick to hold her back, let alone another - even stronger - one. The logic wouldn't translate. Diana, for instance, held Supergirl by the neck at one point like she was nothing. Both are clearly in excess of the 100 ton benchmark, and yet the lower end 100+ couldn't even budge.

Ms. Marvel, although strong for her team, has never really registered any higher tier strength feats to suggest she is above the 70-ish range. Her durability has always been ahead of her strength anyhow. She didn't have the strength to take down Hulk's skrull, but she did have the durability to withstand his blows while BFR-ing him because it was her only option.

Yo.

I agree that posting DS defeating teams wouldnt be a good way to quantify durability or STR..........but in the page I posted he out-muscled Donna when matched on an even level (or rather, he chumped her USING STRENGTH). in an argument like this, it becomes a valid showing given that hes NOWHERE NEAR her lvl of STR.

as for that "nuke tanking" -clip, Im afraid thats not really accurate given: 1) she was a *good* distance away, 2) we see around her that other structures have withstood the blast as well, and 3) neither her nor Ray were singed at all; saying she took the brunt of the shockwave as U state in that 9th post of the "feat" was the more honest way to put it really, but thats (also) not something which says "cl100".

but I'll say this: I actually did some digging and DC apparently stands by the assertion that shes cl100 since they have her labeled as such on her wikia entry (altho it still doesnt show on-panel).

Tazer

Originally posted by Konton
Starfire's encounter with Donna and Mon-el (a middle end 100+ and a higher tier 100+) should insinuate that she is, at the very least, a low end 100 tonner. An 80 class wouldn't even require one 100 class brick to hold her back, let alone another - even stronger - one. The logic wouldn't translate. Diana, for instance, held Supergirl by the neck at one point like she was nothing. Both are clearly in excess of the 100 ton benchmark, and yet the lower end 100+ couldn't even budge.

Thing Vs. Hulk, proves that Class 80 to 90 tons can hang with 100+ tons. All we're dealing with here is an assumption by you. Unless you have actual pictures showing her using Class 100 strength, then she is not Class 100.

I'm actually not sure why your pushing it so much. There nothing wrong with her being in the 50 to 80 tons range. Not every DC hero need to lift a skyscraper.

Originally posted by Tazer
Yo.

but I'll say this: I actually did some digging and DC apparently stands by the assertion that shes cl100 since they have her labeled as such on her wikia entry (altho it still doesnt show on-panel).

Tazer

I wouldn't trust Wikia as far as I can see it. I personally need proof in the comics.

it'd always been my impression that she was low-level cl100--or close enough that the difference doesn't matter. not that i think it will be the definitive piece of this fight though.....

Yo.

Originally posted by HandOfFate
I wouldn't trust Wikia as far as I can see it. I personally need proof in the comics.

same here, Im just coming clean that the company which puts out the books DT appears in seem to consider her thus, not that its changed *my* opinion of her performance capability..........

just being honest & fair here is all.

Tazer

Originally posted by Tazer
Yo.

I agree that posting DS defeating teams wouldnt be a good way to quantify durability or STR..........but in the page I posted he out-muscled Donna when matched on an even level (or rather, he chumped her USING STRENGTH). in an argument like this, it becomes a valid showing given that hes NOWHERE NEAR her lvl of STR.

as for that "nuke tanking" -clip, Im afraid thats not really accurate given: 1) she was a *good* distance away, 2) we see around her that other structures have withstood the blast as well, and 3) neither her nor Ray were singed at all; saying she took the brunt of the shockwave as U state in that 9th post of the "feat" was the more honest way to put it really, but thats (also) not something which says "cl100".

but I'll say this: I actually did some digging and DC apparently stands by the assertion that shes cl100 since they have her labeled as such on her wikia entry (altho it still doesnt show on-panel).

Tazer

You realize that the fact that DS is outclassed in strength means him outmuscling her is PIS, right? DS team busting feats are PIS. Stop talking about them because they aren't acceptable evidence.

Donna recently smashed Superwoman's face in all bloody like. She's class 100 easy.

Also... I don't think reading wikipedia really equates to "doing some digging."

Originally posted by HandOfFate
Thing Vs. Hulk, proves that Class 80 to 90 tons can hang with 100+ tons. All we're dealing with here is an assumption by you. Unless you have actual pictures showing her using Class 100 strength, then she is not Class 100.

I'm actually not sure why your pushing it so much. There nothing wrong with her being in the 50 to 80 tons range. Not every DC hero need to lift a skyscraper.

I wouldn't trust Wikia as far as I can see it. I personally need proof in the comics.

Thing is class 100.

The feats I've mentioned are all in her respect thread. You're just ignoring them and agreeing with the guy throwing Deathstroke feats around like they have any weight in a logical argument. Just because a character hasn't lifted a skyscraper doesn't mean one isn't class 100 or even 100+. Lifting feats aren't all that common.

I'm not pushing it because I'm biased, I'm pushing it because I'm not wrong.

Sure, Havok is probably the better bet of the two if she doesn't blitz him. She's still 100 class.

Yo.

Originally posted by Konton
You realize that the fact that DS is outclassed in strength means him outmuscling her is PIS, right? DS team busting feats are PIS. Stop talking about them because they aren't acceptable evidence.

Donna recently smashed Superwoman's face in all bloody like. She's class 100 easy.

Also... I don't think reading wikipedia really equates to "doing some digging."

if it only happened once I would agree, however the fact that DS chumps ppl vastly more powerful than him on a regular basis should mean that perhaps its *not* all PIS, especially given that the feats where he tends to shine in are pretty limited.

so no, using that scene to debunk yur "feelings" on the matter shouldnt count as unacceptable evidence, especially since Ive been the only 1 of us to provide any actual evidence (ex: going by a technicallity, U havent shown ANYTHING ON PANEL which states Superwoman *or* DT are cl100; just cuz it looks that way doesnt make it fact. it has to be stated) towards an argument.

also, I said "wikia", not "wiki"; I actually tried to find her "Whos Who" entry, but wasnt successful.

Originally posted by Konton
Thing is class 100.

The feats I've mentioned are all in her respect thread. You're just ignoring them and agreeing with the guy throwing Deathstroke feats around like they have any weight in a logical argument. Just because a character hasn't lifted a skyscraper doesn't mean one isn't class 100 or even 100+. Lifting feats aren't all that common.

I'm not pushing it because I'm biased, I'm pushing it because I'm not wrong.

really? since when? wat issue stated that Thing was cl100?

I hardly think using 1 DS-feat counts as "throwing them around", but watever.........

also, U might BE right, but U have yet to actually PROVE it. saying "X fought Y" doesnt count as proof, since going by that argument Cap should be atleast cl30 sincehe beat the snot outta US Agent, and we KNOW hes atleast cl20 (results of those who have had the Power Broker -treatments was actually stated ON PANEL).........but we know this isnt true, right?

so again, wheres the proof comrade?

Tazer