Originally posted by RagingBoner
Simply a theory with which I am toying.
Rather than toying with it, Gideon should have put some thought into it. Not that one should expect any kind of logical reasoning coming from a person that is, as he admitted himself, driven by bias.
We know that Windu's mastery of Vaapad largely mitigates the combat advantages afforded by the dark side of the Force. Initially outmatched by Darth Sidious's speed and agility, Windu goes on the defensive until such a time that Vaapad enables him to siphon and reflect the Sith Lord's speed. Vaapad also enables Windu to even more directly siphon and reflect Palpatine's Force lightning by way of a conduit (in this case, his lightsaber).
And, to nobodies surprise, since we're dealing with the analysis of fiction by a biased individual here, RB's interpretation is wrong. Let me quote of Mace Windu himself:
"To use Vaapad, a Jedi must give himself over to the thrill of battle, enjoying the fight and the satisfaction of winning. A Jedi must also accept and embrace the fury of his opponent. This transforms the Jedi into half of a superconducting loop,the other half being the power of darkness, which passes in and out of the Jedi without touching him." - Mace Windu, The Essential Guide through the Force, p. 113
Rather than taking away power from somewhere or the opponent (obviously, Windu wasn't combating dark side users only), it makes use of the Jedi's own inner darkness, from with the strength is drawn. That's the foundation of a dark siders combat ability and the "boost" in that, Anakin does apparently benefit from when utilizing the Dark Side. The point is: It's independant of the opponent that Mace fights and likewise not affecting the opponent. It just makes the Vaapad user stronger, drawing strength from his inner darkness.
Vjun is a dark side nexus that affords the Count powers beyond his normal scope. But even with this extra advantage, he is unable to overpower Yoda, who is simultaneously distracted by Dooku's cunning tactics (hurling Whirry out the window) and restraining himself ("Wish to hurt you, I do not!"😉.
First off, Gideon ignores that we don't have an idea to what extend Vjun boosted Dooku's power, with any speculation on it being that: speculation, based on unsupported assumptions. Nice premise for a "logical" argument. 🙄
The next thing, Gideon kindly assumes, is that a wish is equal to implementation. Just because Yoda didn't wish to hurt his former student, doesn't mean that he was restraining himself in the actual combat. Or are we going to assume that Obi-Wan was holding back against Anakin, too, because he clearly didn't want to kill him and had even stronger feelings for him than Yoda for Dooku? I don't think that works.
In contrast, Darth Sidious was able to fight an "unrestrained" Yoda to a relative standstill despite not being on a dark side nexus.
And now Gideon is back at comparing apples to oranges. Unlike Sidious, who had reinforcements for him on the way, Dooku knew that Kenobi and Skywalker were coming to aid Yoda. As a consequence, he wasn't able to stay and prolong the fight into a standstill the Sidious way. This is a reenacment of the situation we had at the end of AotC. Dooku fleds because Yoda is about to receive aid. In fact, he could easily have killed the Jedi Master, while the green fellow was attempting to save Anakin and Obi-Wan.
Therefore, we can assume that Vjun!Dooku is weaker in the dark side than his Master. The same Master who was bested in a lightsaber duel by Windu.
Wow. Two illogical conclusions in two sentences. Must be a new record, even for Gideon. First: Since we don't know how Sidious would fare on Vjun, we can't make a comparison between him and Dooku. Technically, at least Dooku made it out of the duel without getting disarmed and he managed to wound Yoda.
The second thing is that, that Sidious didn't "stalemate" Yoda in a lightsaber duel, but had to turn it into a force contest and, even then, just was lucky in the end, that Yoda fell and he didn't plus he had additional forces arriving (why Dooku had additional opponents arriving). Comparing those two situations does not compute.
As a master of Vaapad and, therefore a "high end master of multiple forms," Windu is likely the Count's equal in terms of technical aptitude on neutral ground. But the passage indicates, on Vjun, that Dooku's swordplay was noticeably quicker, more efficient, and more ruthless -- making him more dangerous than what he'd be on a Force-neutral world. Which is to say that Vjun!Dooku was probably "faster, more efficient, and more ruthless" than regular!Windu.
Does Gideon missunderstand quotes on purpose or is he really incapable of reading? Does "perhabs Dooku's equal" really sound, as if there is the possibility, that Mace is actually better than Dooku, especially bringing other Jedi in that context and, speaking about context, take the other comparisons between Mace and Dooku into consideration (directly and indirectly).
We know that Dooku did beat Mace before. We don't know, if it happened the other way around, and while I wouldn't like to turn that into an argument ex silentio ("He didn't beat Dooku because no source does mention it."😉, the lack of a reference for them having been equals can be understand so, that they weren't. Which is kind of confirmed by Yoda's statement regarding Dooku being given by the very same source:
"The best of all would be the strongest student, yes? Wisest? Most learned in the ways of the Force? Best of all, Dooku would be! Our greatest student!" - Yoda, Dark Rendevouz.
While this is the personal opinion of Yoda, which is questionable, we're dealing with the judgement of the orders grandmaster here, who doesn't even take another Jedi into consideration. He simple puts Dooku above any other student of the temple in the force mastery department and the same book introduces precisely one other Jedi who might be on par with Dooku in terms of blade work on equal ground.
The powerful advantages afforded by the dark side on Vjun are demonstrably less potent than the advantages afforded by Darth Sidious's natural strength in the dark side.
Again this conclusion has come up with is devoid of any logic. Sidious didn't "defeat" Yoda, he also didn't "stalemate" Yoda. He lost the lightsaber duel, he lost the force contest and the green muppet just didn't keep it coming, because some clones were on their way and he had to make it out alive. Gideon attempts to hold the fact that Dooku escaped from Yoda against the Count, while Sidious, being in the same situation, also tried to escape ("Why leave, if so powerful you are?"😉 but just failed to do the job and was forced to fight. Who knows how Dooku would have done in such a situation? I don't.
Because Windu was eventually able to mitigate those, it is entirely possible that the metaphysical properties of Vaapad and mastery of the shatterpoint charism would give Windu the win in a strict duel with Vjun!Dooku.
Mace had all of this before, when he was beaten by Dooku. Mace gained more confidence in his control over Vaapad since then. Dooku gained the Dark Side as an additional boost in combat, and has added a nice array of Dark Side powers to his "stuff to use against Jedi while fencing" card. Does anybody honestly think that looks as if Windu increased more in skill and ability than Dooku did? Sounds like an odd idea.
Originally posted by RagingBoner
On a planet steeped in the dark side of the Force. With a distracted and restrained Yoda. What's your point? Even on Vjun, Dooku's still terrified of Sidious.
Using the fear of a character to "prove" his inferiority to the character he fears is another one of Gideon's completely logical points. Since "fear" is clear controlled by ratio, rather than being a feral instinct that has precisely nothing to do with rational thought. 🙄
I bet when a child is afraid of the dark, this also "proves" that their are monsters everywhere in the darkness, waiting to attack the child. 👆
Originally posted by Eminence
😐I didn't even notice the title.
Holy shit.
I don't think anyone but Janus noticed, and I thought he was screwing around.
I was a little concerned no one heeded me. Am I on ignore?
Hello?
And then it hits me: the ritual has gone wrong. I am anchored to SWVF! My powerful soul cannot run rampant through the cosmos!
But Faunus can hear me. That means I have to possess him and/or turn him to the Dark Side.
Spoiler:
Assuming control.
Originally posted by Borbarad
Using the fear of a character to "prove" his inferiority to the character he fears is another one of Gideon's completely logical points. Since "fear" is clear controlled by ratio, rather than being a feral instinct that has precisely nothing to do with rational thought. 🙄I bet when a child is afraid of the dark, this also "proves" that their are monsters everywhere in the darkness, waiting to attack the child. 👆
Yes, let's compare Dooku to a child. I mean Dooku, like a child, can also be convinced that Santa is real. Sidious convinced Dooku that there was a hideous monster underneath his robes, and that he would unleash it upon Dooku if Dooku ever planned on betraying him.
So, from that point on, Dooku was terrified,
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Yes, let's compare Dooku to a child. I mean Dooku, like a child, can also be convinced that Santa is real. Sidious convinced Dooku that there was a hideous monster underneath his robes, and that he would unleash it upon Dooku if Dooku ever planned on betraying him.So, from that point on, Dooku was terrified,
That sounds like something that happened to me.
Except I got to see what was under the robe.
I-it wasn't a monster.....
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Yes, let's compare Dooku to a child. I mean Dooku, like a child, can also be convinced that Santa is real. Sidious convinced Dooku that there was a hideous monster underneath his robes, and that he would unleash it upon Dooku if Dooku ever planned on betraying him.So, from that point on, Dooku was terrified,
Running out of arguments again and attempting to use sarcasm on me? Lolz.
A not to small number of adults does fear God, despite the fact that they don't even know whether he exists or not. So the concept of probably unjustified fear is not uncommon among adults exactly. I'd say that an incarnation of evil like Sidious himself, a master in the art of manipulation and master of some unnatural powers wouldn't find it impossible to inspire fear, even in an individual like Dooku.
BUT
It's simple illogical to conclude from there, that, because of fearing his master, Dooku must indeed be far less powerful (in the ways of the force and lightsaber combat) than Sidious. He isn't exactly afraid of Yoda - even though he appears to be afraid of the vision of a Dark Side Yoda - when we know that Yoda was capable of, at the very least, stalemating Sidious (or beat him in both lightsaber skill and force mastery).
So, according to logic, Dooku hasn't any reason to fear his master more than he has to fear Yoda, as far as power is concerned. Perhabs less. Yet, he apparently can't imagine to take it up with Sidious where he is almost eager to duke it out with Yoda. So, his fear is irrational and therefore can't be used as argument for the supposed superiority of Sidious over his apprentice.
S66
Yes, let's compare Dooku to a child. I mean Dooku, like a child, can also be convinced that Santa is real. Sidious convinced Dooku that there was a hideous monster underneath his robes, and that he would unleash it upon Dooku if Dooku ever planned on betraying him.So, from that point on, Dooku was terrified,
👆
Originally posted by RagingBoner
On a planet steeped in the dark side of the Force. With a distracted and restrained Yoda. What's your point? Even on Vjun, Dooku's still terrified of Sidious.
Point was theres no evidence Vjun Dooku is weaker than regular Sidious. I was addressing your theory that Sidious did better against Yoda than even Vjun Dooku.
And yeah we know Dooku fears Sidious. He's got no confidence to challenge him by himself. Not even with Ventress. He wants someone more powerful at his side.
Being on Vjun isn't gna make a difference to that considering if Sidious came down to Vjun his powers would also benefit from Vjun's darkness.