Darth Power
Point was theres no evidence Vjun Dooku is weaker than regular Sidious. I was addressing your theory that Sidious did better against Yoda than even Vjun Dooku.
Which you failed to do. Palpatine was facing a Yoda who was absolutely focused and intent on killing him. Vjun!Dooku can't say the same.
Originally posted by Nephthys
I don't know Borb. Yoda isn't likely to torture you if you fail. Now Sidious, I can see that happening. Sidious seems the one I'd be more fearful of pissing off personally.
So rather than fearing the power of Sidious, Dooku feared being tortured...?
Originally posted by RagingBoner
Which you failed to do. Palpatine was facing a Yoda who was absolutely focused and intent on killing him. Vjun!Dooku can't say the same.
Ah. The good old repetition of defeated points ad nauseam. It never gets old. 👆
Darth Power
Its all about "You Failed", and "Im Right" with you guys..
Not really, not anymore, which is why I'm a bit more judicious about committing time and energy to these sort of debates.
Your contention was that Yoda did better against Sidious than Vjun!Dooku, of which there is no evidence. As to the evidence that Vjun!Dooku is weaker than regular!Sidious, we can conclude that this is the case from the fact that, even while on Vjun, Dooku found himself incapable of "question[ing] the power of Darth Sidious. The dark secrets at his command." In addition, the Count's thoughts indicate that he's still terrified of his Master despite Vjun's empowerment, even when his Master isn't present. Unlike some, I don't consider the good Count to be akin to a child, easily frightened or intimidated. To me, someone of Dooku's age, experience, and power would fear very few individuals and, if he was afraid of them, it would have to be for a damn good reason.
Lucas already gave us why: "From then on, he [Anakin] wasn't as strong as the Emperor -- he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku." Dooku's weaker than Palpatine, which is why he's the apprentice, which is why despite commanding an army of battle droids numbering in the quintillions and harboring treacherous thoughts about Sidious, he's too afraid to take him on.
If you want to believe otherwise, be my guest. I don't particularly care at this point, this has been argued to death by pro-Dooku and pro-Sidious factions for years.
Originally posted by RagingBoner
Not really, not anymore, which is why I'm a bit more judicious about committing time and energy to these sort of debates.
What Gideon wanted to say is, that he doesn't invest time in coming up with any coherent arguments, but instead repost the previously defeated stuff again and again, until you finally give up. If you decide not to give up, and keep pointing out his lack of reason and logic, he will react by putting you on his ignore list and go on with the next individual crossing the hallowed path he walks on.
Your contention was that Yoda did better against Sidious than Vjun!Dooku, of which there is no evidence.
What Gideon wants to tell you is this: While he will presume, that Yoda let his emotions affect his abilities, despite being known for not letting it happen, Dooku (dark sider driven by emotion) is apparently immune towards similar feelings, despite the fact that his former Master has almost redeemed him from the Dark Side just before. This is, what Gideon usually calls "reasonable logic".
As to the evidence that Vjun!Dooku is weaker than regular!Sidious, we can conclude that this is the case from the fact that, even while on Vjun, Dooku found himself incapable of "question[ing] the power of Darth Sidious. The dark secrets at his command." In addition, the Count's thoughts indicate that he's still terrified of his Master despite Vjun's empowerment, even when his Master isn't present. Unlike some, I don't consider the good Count to be akin to a child, easily frightened or intimidated. To me, someone of Dooku's age, experience, and power would fear very few individuals and, if he was afraid of them, it would have to be for a damn good reason.
Apparently, Gideon will continue to ignore the irrationality of fear, and instead presume that this is born out of rational considerations, rather than some stuff beyond Dooku's understanding, especially when an individual is afraid of a manipulative character like Sidious. Drawing biased conclusions out of nowhere is an art in which Gideon excels. Besides lying, missinterpreting and forging evidence in favor of his beloved Darth Sidious.
Lucas already gave us why: "From then on, he [Anakin] wasn't as strong as the Emperor -- he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku." Dooku's weaker than Palpatine, which is why he's the apprentice, which is why despite commanding an army of battle droids numbering in the quintillions and harboring treacherous thoughts about Sidious, he's too afraid to take him on.
Gideon, of course, ignores, that the quote don't exactly excludes the possibility of Dooku defeating Sidious if he should ever have tried to do so. Windu did, and I'm rather certain he isn't as "powerful" in the force as Sidious. Likewise Darth Maul, in a momentaneous surge of anger, almost managed to kill his master. All of that is context, that Gideon has always ignored and will keep ignoring, because it isn't beneficial for his personal opinion.
But let us follow Gideons ridiculous "logic" for a few moments. Applying it as Gideon did above, we can easily conclude that Sidious is (far) less powerful than Yoda, because he tried to escape from the Jedi Master before the beginning of their lightsaber duel in Revenge of the Sith showing FEAR. This, of course, is the point where Gideons "logic" would be turned against his own favorite character and hence can not be applicable any longer. As you see, Gideon is neither biased nor does he apply double-standards in his arguments. 👆
If you want to believe otherwise, be my guest. I don't particularly care at this point, this has been argued to death by pro-Dooku and pro-Sidious factions for years.
What Gideon wants to tell you is, that despite having written a 12 page essay on his favorite character, and having debated this issue ever since the release of Revenge of the Sith, he hasn't convinced all people here of his opinion, especially not the ones whos opinion he really cares about. And of course, he also doesn't care about the particular topic - hence why he has participated in this debate once again just here.
And now, being confronted with the fact that he will again not win it, he turns tail and runs, because "not caring". "Honesty" is another of this principles Gideon adheres to. Hence why we had him admitting his bias for Sidious in the past. So, really. When a topic even remotely touches the persona of Palpatine, you can simply ignore anything he says.
Originally posted by RagingBoner
Not really, not anymore, which is why I'm a bit more judicious about committing time and energy to these sort of debates.Your contention was that Yoda did better against Sidious than Vjun!Dooku, of which there is no evidence. As to the evidence that Vjun!Dooku is weaker than regular!Sidious, we can conclude that this is the case from the fact that, even while on Vjun, Dooku found himself incapable of "question[ing] the power of Darth Sidious. The dark secrets at his command." In addition, the Count's thoughts indicate that he's still terrified of his Master despite Vjun's empowerment, even when his Master isn't present. Unlike some, I don't consider the good Count to be akin to a child, easily frightened or intimidated. To me, someone of Dooku's age, experience, and power would fear very few individuals and, if he was afraid of them, it would have to be for a damn good reason.
Lucas already gave us why: "From then on, he [Anakin] wasn't as strong as the Emperor -- he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku." Dooku's weaker than Palpatine, which is why he's the apprentice, which is why despite commanding an army of battle droids numbering in the quintillions and harboring treacherous thoughts about Sidious, he's too afraid to take him on.
If you want to believe otherwise, be my guest. I don't particularly care at this point, this has been argued to death by pro-Dooku and pro-Sidious factions for years.
To add to this, I was reminded of a ForceCast interview with Dave Filoni, which can be found here.
At around the 24:35 mark, the interviewer speaks to the portrayal of the good Count and asks Filoni whether or not his betrayal of Ventress was out of loyalty to or fear of Sidious. Filoni answers at the 25:25 mark that it was definitely fear, "because he [Dooku] is not ready to take on Sidious by himself."
Whatever that's worth.
Originally posted by RagingBoner
Filoni answers at the 25:25 mark that it was definitely fear, "because he [Dooku] is not ready to take on Sidious by himself."Whatever that's worth.
Well thats made clear in the episode. He's also not confident to take on Sidious with Ventress. He wants someone more powerful. Dooku's words suggest he would be confident with Darth Maul on his side.