Originally posted by RagingBoner
There is a difference. A fanboy is not likely to proclaim that the object of his affections has rivals or competition in any regard, nor is he likely to introduce evidence that leads to a conclusion against the supremacy of his chosen character. I've done both on more than one occasion, as Janus was kind enough to help point out.I'm honest enough with myself and those of us here to casually admit that Palpatine is one of my favorite characters and his status in that regard has certainly clouded my judgment on more than one occasion.
Do you really believe that yourself? 🙄
Exar Kun's advantage here is higher showings than Revenge of the Sith Sidious and Count Dooku; given that he alone among those three is undefeated in saber combat once he became a Sith and that besides the obvious boost his Sith amulet gives him, only he has shown the ability to be able to outright kill using the Force, as poor Odan-Ur found out.
Darth Bane for his part came from a more militant Ruusan age Sith army, and his swordmaster Kas'im taught him Juyo and Makashi, the styles used by the enemy. Darth Bane's enormous strength in the Force allows him to compete with and ultimately defeat Kas'im, who is arguably as good if not better than 0alpatine or Dooku.
Exar Kun and Bane are the likely winners.
EK
Exar Kun's advantage here is higher showings than Revenge of the Sith Sidious and Count Dooku;
Feats of strength alone aren't necessarily enough to declare the victor, though. Consider the feats of strength from Mace Windu and Yoda in the Clone Wars microseries and the fact that both Palpatine and Dooku were able to hold their own against both of them at various points in the Clone Wars and Revenge of the Sith.
EK
given that he alone among those three is undefeated in saber combat once he became a Sith
As Lucien pointed out, this is relevant only in that it is an indicator of his skill during his era, it doesn't mean he'll necessarily outstrip opponents of other eras.
EK
and that besides the obvious boost his Sith amulet gives him, only he has shown the ability to be able to outright kill using the Force, as poor Odan-Ur found out.
Kun's amulets make him truly formidable, but not invincible. The text of the comic says that the amulets boosted his powers a hundred thousand times. Why, then, was Kun defeated by the mass ranks of the Jedi? Surely one hundred thousand Kuns would be vastly more potent than the assembled ranks of the Jedi at that point.
EK
Darth Bane for his part came from a more militant Ruusan age Sith army, and his swordmaster Kas'im taught him Juyo and Makashi, the styles used by the enemy. Darth Bane's enormous strength in the Force allows him to compete with and ultimately defeat Kas'im, who is arguably as good if not better than 0alpatine or Dooku.Exar Kun and Bane are the likely winners.
Kas'im's technical skill likely outstrips Dooku and certainly Palpatine, who hasn't had opportunity to maintain his dueling expertise by the time of the prequels. That said, Palpatine is (according to the Complete Visual Dictionary, Complete Encyclopedia, and Dark Side Sourcebook) more powerful in the Force than Darth Bane. Such an advantage won't be present here, especially when Bane's without his orbalisks. Dooku himself is also regarded as one of the most powerful Jedi ever, in addition to being a duelist of legendary repute.
That said, Palpatine is (according to the Complete Visual Dictionary, Complete Encyclopedia, and Dark Side Sourcebook) more powerful in the Force than Darth Bane. Such an advantage won't be present here, especially when Bane's without his orbalisks.
If thats true then as past arguments have shown then the difference between the two power-wise is negligible. Not enough for him to warrent an over-powering advantage like Bane had with Kas'im.
That said Palpatine was able to duel evenly with Windu, and I trust his skills need not be referenced. His technical abilities are not small by any rate. Its always been my opinion that Palpatine and Bane are fairly evenly matched in terms of combat and abilities.*
Though with the amulets as team 2 now possess, they should win.
*waits for complimenting Sidious to bite me in the ass
N.
If thats true then as past arguments have shown then the difference between the two power-wise is negligible.
"The Sith Order, in hiding for a millennium, had awaited the birth of one who was powerful enough to return the Order to prominence. Darth Sidious was the fulfillment of that prophecy, capable of exacting the Sith’s revenge on the Jedi for having nearly eradicated the practitioners of the dark side of the Force." -- Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia, Volume III, page 150.
I'm not sure this is the case. If their relative strength in the Force was "negligible," then Bane should have been able to fulfill the requirements for this prophecy. Because he couldn't, the difference must be notable, if not massive.
N.
Not enough for him to warrent an over-powering advantage like Bane had with Kas'im.
Perhaps, perhaps not. But the difference is there.
N.
That said Palpatine was able to duel evenly with Windu, and I trust his skills need not be referenced. His technical abilities are not small by any rate. Its always been my opinion that Palpatine and Bane are fairly evenly matched in terms of combat and abilities.*Though with the amulets as team 2 now possess, they should win.
An argument could definitely be made for parity or superiority in Bane's favor, I'm sure, in terms of combat skills. But in terms of power? I don't believe so.
N.
*waits for complimenting Sidious to bite me in the ass
This objectivity is out of character for you, so I'll reward you by not ass-biting.
Though I am tempted by its kinkiness. 😄
Oh my. Our dear Sidious fanboy is trying to interprete quotes in favor of his wrinkled loverboy again...
Originally posted by RagingBoner
"The Sith Order, in hiding for a millennium, had awaited the birth of one who was powerful enough to return the Order to prominence. Darth Sidious was the fulfillment of that prophecy, capable of exacting the Sith’s revenge on the Jedi for having nearly eradicated the practitioners of the dark side of the Force." -- Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia, Volume III, page 150.I'm not sure this is the case. If their relative strength in the Force was "negligible," then Bane should have been able to fulfill the requirements for this prophecy. Because he couldn't, the difference must be notable, if not massive.
I wonder, if our dear Sidious fanboy has ever watched Revenge of the Sith. Apparently, he didn't. He also didn't read the arguments exchanged here over the past five years and - most arkwardly - he also didn't pay attention to his very own essay dealing with his wrinkled loverboy. "Why do you say something like that, Nai?", some people might ask now. The answer is pretty simple: Because, as you can see right above, our Sidious fanboy is once again attempting to interprete the word "powerful" as "powerful in the ways of the force".
Does the quote say that? No. And now, what kind of power does the quote referred to? It refers to the power that was needed "to return the [Sith] Order to prominence." Did I miss the scene in the movie, where Sidious exacted the Revenge of the Sith with his force powers? I could swear that he utilized an army of clones, the Seperatist forces and his political influence to do the job. Out of the thousands of Jedi falling victim to his machinations only four die because of his own, personal abilities.
So how does one conclude that this "powerful" is only refering to Sidious force abilities? I think that interpretation is rather far-fetched. And I'm pretty sure, that everybody not having shoved his head into the straight intestine of his favourite Sith Lord, is pretty capable of seeing this, too.
Perhaps, perhaps not. But the difference is there.
Yeah. The difference is there. Unfortunatelly, it comes in the guise of some millions of Clones, the office of the Head of State of a galaxy-spanning governing body and a military strong enough to control that realm. I don't see any of that helping Sidious in a duel, but perhabs I just missed the "and all resources available to them, including troops under their direct command" in the first posting.
An argument could definitely be made for parity or superiority in Bane's favor, I'm sure, in terms of combat skills. But in terms of power? I don't believe so.
Our Sidious fanboy is absolutely correct. If there just wasn't this unbreakable habit of his, to act as if "power" and "force abilities" were interchangeable terms, when describing his favorite character.
And I'm rather sure the muscle-packed giant, who has spent most of his life with hard physical work, has gathered some frontline experience in the Jedi VS Sith war and was trained by Kas'im has the edge in combat related skills on Sidious. The guy who spent most of his life forging plans in his office, who avoids direct confrontation and who has been trained by "a mystic obsessed with eternal life".
This objectivity is out of character for you, so I'll reward you by not ass-biting.
😂 "Objectivity." 😂
Originally posted by Borbarad
I wonder, if our dear Sidious fanboy has ever watched Revenge of the Sith. Apparently, he didn't. He also didn't read the arguments exchanged here over the past five years and - most arkwardly - he also didn't pay attention to his very own essay dealing with his wrinkled loverboy. "Why do you say something like that, Nai?", some people might ask now. The answer is pretty simple: Because, as you can see right above, our Sidious fanboy is once again attempting to interprete the word "powerful" as "powerful in the ways of the force".
The only way you can interpret that quote is power in the force. I can bet my life that you do not interpret it any different.
Originally posted by Borbarad
Does the quote say that? No. And now, what kind of power does the quote referred to? It refers to the power that was needed "to return the [Sith] Order to prominence." Did I miss the scene in the movie, where Sidious exacted the Revenge of the Sith with his force powers? I could swear that he utilized an army of clones, the Seperatist forces and his political influence to do the job. Out of the thousands of Jedi falling victim to his machinations only four die because of his own, personal abilities.
Yes, Sidious was born with an army of clones and political influence. I believe RB pointed that out already. But I am sure you knew what the quote was refering to. While you can argue that it has little to do with combat abilities, you can not argue that it refers to military or political influence.
Come correct.
Originally posted by Borbarad
So how does one conclude that this "powerful" is only refering to Sidious force abilities?
Because those were the only powers he was born with. Maybe?
Originally posted by Borbarad
Yeah. The difference is there. Unfortunatelly, it comes in the guise of some millions of Clones, the office of the Head of State of a galaxy-spanning governing body and a military strong enough to control that realm. I don't see any of that helping Sidious in a duel
But you see it as something he was born with?
Originally posted by Borbarad
And I'm rather sure the muscle-packed giant, who has spent most of his life with hard physical work, has gathered some frontline experience in the Jedi VS Sith war and was trained by Kas'im has the edge in combat related skills on Sidious. The guy who spent most of his life forging plans in his office, who avoids direct confrontation and who has been trained by [i]"a mystic obsessed with eternal life"
Yeah, Sidious held his own against Yoda through his intense study of mysticism.
Do you believe Floyd Mayweather is an exceptional boxer because of the guy who trained him?
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Yes, Sidious was born with an army of clones and political influence. I believe RB pointed that out already. But I am sure you knew what the quote was refering to. While you can argue that it has little to do with combat abilities, you can not argue that it refers to military or political influence.Come correct.
So you want to tell me that baby Sidious could have done the job and he archived what he did based on his force abilities. I wonder how much force powers he needed to murder his master in his sleep and make a career in politics and order the clones to execute Order 66... 🙄
Because those were the only powers he was born with. Maybe?But you see it as something he was born with?
Let's please go on with ignoring the context of the quote. It's a prophecy talking about the coming of the one to bring the Sith Order back to power. Were they expecting his birth? Really? Or rather expecting the one to fulfill it. Is this talking about baby Sidious or the one that fulfilled the prophecy (a grown up Sidious)?
Taking anything literal is certainly a great way of interpreting fictional literature. 👆
Yeah, Sidious held his own against Yoda through his intense study of mysticism.
No. He did that by fighting out of a position of advantage, having the greater weight that prevented him from being blown from the pod during his force struggle with Yoda and he got some support in the guise of Clone Troopers coming to his aid after Yoda had fallen, preventing the Jedi Master from continuing the fight.
Do you believe Floyd Mayweather is an exceptional boxer because of the guy who trained him?
Do you believe Obama is an exceptional duellist, because he's the "most powerful man in the world"?
Originally posted by RagingBoner
Feats of strength alone aren't necessarily enough to declare the victor, though. Consider the feats of strength from Mace Windu and Yoda in the Clone Wars microseries and the fact that both Palpatine and Dooku were able to hold their own against both of them at various points in the Clone Wars and Revenge of the Sith.
Because no common ground can be found between the Clone Wars era and Tales of the Jedi (keeping in mind that TotJ predates CW in real time by years), it's reasonable to assume that because Kun is the top of all Force users in his era by demonstration and reputation (including your very own earlier point that Kun is explicitly stated to be one of the most powerful and dangerous Sith of all time) he is likely on par with if not significantly better than PT-era Jedi and Sith.
But taking both that quote, his demonstrated Force prowess and the fact that he is basically unmastered by anyone once he becomes a Sith, I don't see how you could argue any PT-era Sith would be better. I can't see Sidious freezing an entire army, or killing Yoda with a wave of his hand, or resisting a Wall of Light from thousands of proficient Jedi. Hell, the ability was common doctrine back then. When is it used in the PT? Ever?
As Lucien pointed out, this is relevant only in that it is an indicator of his skill during his era, it doesn't mean he'll necessarily outstrip opponents of other eras.
He's a master swordsman explicitly. He toys with and destroys the only notorious fighter in the Jedi Order besides Ulic, and he is head and shoulders above Ulic in Force powers. He's not shown being defeated or stalemated by anyone other than Ulic, and Ulic is known for being among the best swordsmen of his era, period, having defeated Mandalore and Warb Null with very little effort.
Kun's amulets make him truly formidable, but not invincible. The text of the comic says that the amulets boosted his powers a hundred thousand times. Why, then, was Kun defeated by the mass ranks of the Jedi? Surely one hundred thousand Kuns would be vastly more potent than the assembled ranks of the Jedi at that point.
^ All of the Jedi Order, thousands of them, came together expressly for the purpose of putting a Wall of Light on Kun.
Wall of Light defined:
So basically, Odan-Urr failed to do it to Kun, and Odan-Urr was a veteran of the Jedi Order for 500+ years and a veteran of the Jedi purge of the ancient Sith following the battle with Naga Sadow, and the entire Jedi Order was unable to overcome Exar Kun. He was not sealed from the Force itself, but his lack of knowledge of the ritual and their interference led to him anchoring himself to Yavin IV instead of being allowed to run rampant through the cosmos.
I'd say that being able to resist Force blocking rituals from the entire Jedi Order is up there.
Kas'im's technical skill likely outstrips Dooku and certainly Palpatine, who hasn't had opportunity to maintain his dueling expertise by the time of the prequels. That said, Palpatine is (according to the Complete Visual Dictionary, Complete Encyclopedia, and Dark Side Sourcebook) more powerful in the Force than Darth Bane. Such an advantage won't be present here, especially when Bane's without his orbalisks. Dooku himself is also regarded as one of the most powerful Jedi ever, in addition to being a duelist of legendary repute.
Quotes on this? I don't remember Bane ever being exactly compared to Sidious before.
Originally posted by Borbarad
So you want to tell me that baby Sidious could have done the job and he archived what he did based on his force abilities. I wonder how much force powers he needed to murder his master in his sleep and make a career in politics and order the clones to execute Order 66... 🙄
So you want to tell me that Sidious could have achieved what he did without his force base abililities? Doubt it.
I am not arguing that the powers the quote is refering to will help him in combat situation, so I don't know why you would bring up the murder of his master. I am just telling you the quote wasn't refering to his military and political status.
Originally posted by Borbarad
Let's please go on with ignoring the context of the quote. It's a prophecy talking about the coming of the one to bring the Sith Order back to power. Were they expecting his birth? Really? Or rather expecting the one to fulfill it. Is this talking about baby Sidious or the one that fulfilled the prophecy (a grown up Sidious)?
So what you're saying is they were not talking about Sidious, but they were talking about the one that fulfilled it (which was Sidious). In that case the prophecy of the chosen one was not talking about Anakin, but the person who would restore balance to the force? Right?
If the quote refered to political status then that would have absolutely nothing to do with what he was born with. Why would they even mention anything about a birth? They wouldn't be waiting on the birth but rather the first sith to be elected as senator or chancellor, which could have been any sith. Kinda strange it took so many centuries for a sith to be elected into that high of a position. Wonder why Plaqueis sat around studying mysticism instead of getting himself elected as senator? Maybe he just did not crave power like most sith.
Originally posted by Borbarad
No. He did that by fighting out of a position of advantage, having the greater weight that prevented him from being blown from the pod during his force struggle with Yoda and he got some support in the guise of Clone Troopers coming to his aid after Yoda had fallen, preventing the Jedi Master from continuing the fight.
But you do know that Yoda also has the advantage of being experienced at fighting more foes Sidious' size than Sidious has fighting a foe Yoda's size. It seems like it would be kinda hard to fight someone Yoda's size who flips around you making him hard to hit.
While Sidious had his advantages, Yoda also had his.
Originally posted by Borbarad
Do you believe Obama is an exceptional duellist, because he's the "most powerful man in the world"?
No, but I also wouldn't claim that he was born "the most powerful man in the world" either.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
So you want to tell me that Sidious could have achieved what he did without his force base abililities? Doubt it.I am not arguing that the powers the quote is refering to will help him in combat situation, so I don't know why you would bring up the murder of his master. I am just telling you the quote wasn't refering to his military and political status.
And I am telling you that you're committing a reversed Historian's fallacy by presuming that the authors of the quote in question had the same knowledge than the people expecting the fulfillment of the quote in the past. In case you don't get it: Whoever believed in the prophecy did expect a child to be born with enough personal power to do the job. The job later was done but clearly not by means of personal power.
Trying to interprete the quote in order to just refer to force powers is ignoring the context, because you know that explicitly stated knowledge of its authors (Sidious being the one and fulfilling the prophecy the way he did) is not the same as the knowledge of the people expecting the being who would bring back the Sith Order to prominence.
So what you're saying is they were not talking about Sidious, but they were talking about the one that fulfilled it (which was Sidious). In that case the prophecy of the chosen one was not talking about Anakin, but the person who would restore balance to the force? Right?If the quote refered to political status then that would have absolutely nothing to do with what he was born with. Why would they even mention anything about a birth? They wouldn't be waiting on the birth but rather the first sith to be elected as senator or chancellor, which could have been any sith. Kinda strange it took so many centuries for a sith to be elected into that high of a position. Wonder why Plaqueis sat around studying mysticism instead of getting himself elected as senator? Maybe he just did not crave power like most sith.
See above.
The believers had no idea who was going to fulfill the prophecy and how. Much like the Jedi had no idea about how the Chosen One would bring balance to the force. Obviously they didn't expect the entire Jedi Order to be murdered with the help of the Chosen One, to have their force messiah murder the last Sith Lord to protect his son in the end. But that is what happened.
Do you get the different between expectations and implementation now?
No, but I also wouldn't claim that he was born "the most powerful man in the world" either.
Which the quote also does not do. See above.