Originally posted by truejedi
I don't care enough to argue. I don't intend on changing my mind based on existing evidence, and i don't see the point of stupidly rehashing it over and over and over again. to each their own though i suppose.
This at first appears like a decidedly rational outlook, but the problem is that arguing with others blatantly contradicts this. It shows you do care enough to fight about it. Maybe you've decided not to change your mind, but you should not seek to antagonize others to amuse yourself. If you feel it really is stupid, why post at all? It just seems to me like you want to apply double standards!
SM
Because no common ground can be found between the Clone Wars era and Tales of the Jedi (keeping in mind that TotJ predates CW in real time by years), it's reasonable to assume that because Kun is the top of all Force users in his era by demonstration and reputation (including your very own earlier point that Kun is explicitly stated to be one of the most powerful and dangerous Sith of all time) he is likely on par with if not significantly better than PT-era Jedi and Sith.
I have no doubt that and, in fact, have not denied the idea that Kun (especially with the amulet) would be on par with the giants of the prequel trilogy.
SM
But taking both that quote, his demonstrated Force prowess and the fact that he is basically unmastered by anyone once he becomes a Sith, I don't see how you could argue any PT-era Sith would be better. I can't see Sidious freezing an entire army, or killing Yoda with a wave of his hand, or resisting a Wall of Light from thousands of proficient Jedi. Hell, the ability was common doctrine back then. When is it used in the PT? Ever?
It depends on what you're talking about, Janus. If you're referring to natural Force strength, his powers were being greatly boosted by the energies of the Sith amulet, which do not "count" as part of his natural ability. In terms of his dueling record, the fact that he was victorious against all of his competition in his era doesn't necessarily make him better or worse than a duelist of any other era. For example, I don't see someone like Vodo lasting long against the likes of Yoda or Palpatine.
SM
He's a master swordsman explicitly. He toys with and destroys the only notorious fighter in the Jedi Order besides Ulic, and he is head and shoulders above Ulic in Force powers. He's not shown being defeated or stalemated by anyone other than Ulic, and Ulic is known for being among the best swordsmen of his era, period, having defeated Mandalore and Warb Null with very little effort.
No one denies his powers or abilities, but this doesn't translate to an automatic victory over the likes of Palpatine or Dooku.
SM
^ All of the Jedi Order, thousands of them, came together expressly for the purpose of putting a Wall of Light on Kun.Wall of Light defined:
So basically, Odan-Urr failed to do it to Kun, and Odan-Urr was a veteran of the Jedi Order for 500+ years and a veteran of the Jedi purge of the ancient Sith following the battle with Naga Sadow, and the entire Jedi Order was unable to overcome Exar Kun. He was not sealed from the Force itself, but his lack of knowledge of the ritual and their interference led to him anchoring himself to Yavin IV instead of being allowed to run rampant through the cosmos.
I'd say that being able to resist Force blocking rituals from the entire Jedi Order is up there.
The Essential Guide to the Force indicates that the ability used against Ulic Qel-Droma by Nomi Sunrider is different from the "wall of light" utilized by the Jedi Knights and, to be fair, the text doesn't exactly say that the two feats are identical.
SM
Quotes on this? I don't remember Bane ever being exactly compared to Sidious before.
I provided one from the Encyclopedia and the one from the Dictionary is essentially the same. I'll get you the one from the Dark Side Sourcebook.
Originally posted by Exal Kressh
This at first appears like a decidedly rational outlook, but the problem is that arguing with others blatantly contradicts this. It shows you do care enough to fight about it. Maybe you've decided not to change your mind, but you should not seek to antagonize others to amuse yourself. If you feel it really is stupid, why post at all? It just seems to me like you want to apply double standards!
depends on the subject m'love. Sidious vs. Ancient Sith has been done to death and back again.
Blax
I'm of the opinion that Sideous in his DE incarnation is more powerful than Exar Kun or Marka Ragnos. I can't comment on Bane because I haven't read past Path of Destruction, but aside from him and Nihlius I'd say Palpatine is probably the strongest, going by what we have definitely seen in the mythos. Ultimately, I would say Nihilius is the strongest force user in the mythos, then Luke, then Palpatine, then everyone else. Except Bane.
To sum up my end:
The Emperor was capable of Force drains on a planetary scale in a refined version of Nihilus's technique; he used the Force to not only transform Byss from a nascent world into one of the most powerful dark side sites in the galaxy, but he then used his powers to subjugate its twenty billion inhabitants; Palpatine used the Force to mentally cloud the minds of millions on Coruscant to diguise the burial of the Lusankya, a Super Star Destroyer; the Emperor's powers in the dark side were sufficient to smother the senses of ten thousand Jedi Knights; his Force lightning was sufficient to annihilate fifty stormtroopers, three Sith acolytes, and members of Luke Skywalker's Jedi order at various points; his dueling skills were sufficient enough to old his own against Yoda, Mace Windu, and slaughter three of the Order's most "celebrated swordsmen"; Starkiller, who is capable of incredible feats of unaided Force power, was "no match for the powers of Darth Sidious"; his powers were strong enough to cow and dominate Count Dooku, one of the Jedi order's most powerful students and an even greater Lord of the Sith; and he generated Force storms through "mere thought and inclination" that were sufficient enough to kill worlds (through the destruction of a planet's surface) and disintegrate vast fleets.
That he did all of this entirely without aid leads me to believe that he's the most powerful Sith ever through natural power and merit through dedicated training and study.
Originally posted by RagingBoner
To sum up my end:The Emperor was capable of Force drains on a planetary scale
Compared to Nihilus's one second.
Originally posted by RagingBonerin a refined version of Nihilus's technique
The other way around. Nihilus's technique was both different, and more refined than what Palpatine used.
Originally posted by RagingBonerhis dueling skills were sufficient enough to old his own against Yoda, Mace Windu, and slaughter three of the Order's most "celebrated swordsmen"; Starkiller, who is capable of incredible feats of unaided Force power, was "no match for the powers of Darth Sidious";
Starkiller is also a Gary Sue created by a bunch of retards who somehow got jobs at Lucasfilm.
Originally posted by RagingBonerhis powers were strong enough to cow and dominate Count Dooku, one of the Jedi order's most powerful students and an even greater Lord of the Sith
Originally posted by RagingBoner
; and he generated Force storms through "mere thought and inclination" that were sufficient enough to kill worlds (through the destruction of a planet's surface) and disintegrate vast fleets.
Name one planet that was destroyed in one Force Storm by Palpy.
All it does is tear up several miles of land and can't even be fully controlled.
Originally posted by RagingBoner
;
That he did all of this entirely without aid leads me to believe that he's the most powerful Sith ever through natural power and merit through dedicated training and study.
Nah.
Through feats, it's obvious that it's Nihilus.
Sid's can't exterminate every living thing on an entire planet in one second with an utterance.
Nihilus, can.
Nihilus also has vastly stronger TK and reserves of power at his disposal.
If you need proof of any of what I said, there is a thread below us which contains the answers you seek.
Read, and re-read, until it sinks in effectively.
RB
The Essential Guide to the Force indicates that the ability used against Ulic Qel-Droma by Nomi Sunrider is different from the "wall of light" utilized by the Jedi Knights and, to be fair, the text doesn't exactly say that the two feats are identical.
I checked the Essential Guide to the Force again and it appears that the Wall of Light is the same as Nomi's sever Force technique, but on a much larger scale. My bad, I retract that one.
Originally posted by RagingBoner
I checked the Essential Guide to the Force again and it appears that the Wall of Light is the same as Nomi's sever Force technique, but on a much larger scale. My bad, I retract that one.
You'll have to retract more than one. 😎
But glad to see my points go unopposed. 😉 A wise decision on your part.
But disappointing, considering you're supposed to be a great debator.
Perhaps you can do better? 😄
I'm much too tired to argue all night per my usual, but I did want to address a few things real quick:
Originally posted by RagingBoner
To sum up my end:The Emperor was capable of Force drains on a planetary scale in a refined version of Nihilus's technique;
This is incorrect. Sidious' ability is noted as being done in concert with his Sith disciples and taking place over an extremely long period of time. If Sidious was eating planets of Jedi and Miralukans like Nihilus in seconds, this might be considered important. Actually, it's DE Sidious, so who ****ing cares.
the Emperor's powers in the dark side were sufficient to smother the senses of ten thousand Jedi Knights;
... And Kun was able to avoid being destroyed by the combination of the entire Jedi Order focusing energy on him so severe, it actually destroyed most of the surface of the planet. Considering Kun didn't feel the need to "hide in plain sight" like Sidious, this feat seems impressive, but substantiates little in combat prowess. Keep in mind that Count Dooku avoided showing himself as a Sith until Genoshia when he was expected to reveal himself as the antagonist. Count Dooku would not be arguably better than Bane or Kun because of his ability to be deceptive or hide.
his Force lightning was sufficient to annihilate fifty stormtroopers, three Sith acolytes, and members of Luke Skywalker's Jedi order at various points;
Kun was able to wave his hand and kill centuries old Jedi Masters, freeze an entire army's worth of people perfectly and silently, and then fire blasts large enough to consume a large man. I mean, he single handedly took down the gigantic Sith wyrm and the entire Temple of Fire including most of its Massassi population with just his hatred concentrated through his amulet. Adding lightning or TK into the mix is just overkill.
his dueling skills were sufficient enough to old his own against Yoda, Mace Windu, and slaughter three of the Order's most "celebrated swordsmen";
Hyperbole. Those three Jedi Masters were of no consequence in the battle itself. Their "standing" among their peers is moot when they could not defend themselves from a straightforward attack. That's like arguing Jango Fett was the baddest non-Force user evah and Mace Windu is godly awesome in combat because he deflected a few shots and then ran up to simply strike his head off like some kind of demented tee-ball player. It does not add up.
Additionally, Kun was never defeated or in danger of defeat in saber combat ever once he became a Sith. Only Ulic could stalemate him, and Vodo, the primary dueling instructor of the Order for the last five centuries, was toyed with and ultimately destroyed.
Starkiller, who is capable of incredible feats of unaided Force power, was "no match for the powers of Darth Sidious";
I'm sure Exar Kun could stack up well against Starkiller. Probably do even better given his actual Sith Training and the amulets boosting his powers.
his powers were strong enough to cow and dominate Count Dooku, one of the Jedi order's most powerful students and an even greater Lord of the Sith;
Nai points out that Dooku had reasons to feat Sidious besides simple combat considerations. Dooku admittedly knew that Yoda could destroy Sidious if he tapped the Dark Side, and yet he feared Sidious' wrath. If this is truly indicative only of battle prowess and not of say, leverage or inclination to torture/kill, it begs to question why Dooku did not shit himself and cave to Yoda right on Vjun.
and he generated Force storms through "mere thought and inclination" that were sufficient enough to kill worlds (through the destruction of a planet's surface) and disintegrate vast fleets.
... But this is RotS Sidious, so that's moot.
That he did all of this entirely without aid leads me to believe that he's the most powerful Sith ever through natural power and merit through dedicated training and study.
Good for you. But being unaided only gives you props if people actually care about "who is most powerful unaided according to someone else's skewed viewpoint". Kun's boost through the amulet is measurably higher than anyone's since it's noted in the narration as hundreds of thousands of times his normal power. This doesn't immediately say that Kun was weak and of no consequence; it's explicitly stated that Kun is strong in the Force. Vodo says it, calling him his greatest student, and Ulic is immediately aware of Kun's immense Force powers just through casual contact. Amplifying that by hundreds of thousands means that the amount of power he's packing is simply well beyond whatever RotS Sidious is packing.
And to put the nail in the coffin finally, who gives a rat's ass if one is aided and the other is not? Power is power. If Sidious had an amulet, I'm positive you wouldn't ***** and moan, but because Kun's amulet gives him a clear and measurable advantage over your homeboy, you are stomping your feet and pitching a fit over it.
Let it go dude.
SM
Actually, it's DE Sidious, so who ****ing cares.
SM
But this is [b]RotS Sidious, so that's moot.[/b]
SM
RotS Sidious is packing.
Yeah, I was responding to that which I quoted, which was this:
Blax
I'm of the opinion that Sideous in his DE incarnation is more powerful than Exar Kun or Marka Ragnos. I can't comment on Bane because I haven't read past Path of Destruction, but aside from him and Nihlius I'd say Palpatine is probably the strongest, going by what we have definitely seen in the mythos. Ultimately, I would say Nihilius is the strongest force user in the mythos, then Luke, then Palpatine, then everyone else. Except Bane.
Which makes this all the more interesting:
SM
***** and moan,
SM
you are stomping your feet and pitching a fit over it.
😂
Maybe next time, you'd actually consider the context of my words, especially since "none of this is personal" for you. 😉
SM
This is incorrect. Sidious' ability is noted as being done in concert with his Sith disciples
Quote and source, please. The Dark Empire Sourcebook says that Palpatine planned for his Dark Side Adepts to do so, once they had replaced the Empire's current political system (i.e. the Moffs and Grand Moffs). Other sources, from the Essential Atlas to "Byss and the Deep Core" indicate that it was his power alone that subjugated the planet, transformed it into a dark side nexus, and fed from the citizenry.
SM
and taking place over an extremely long period of time. If Sidious was eating planets of Jedi and Miralukans like Nihilus in seconds, this might be considered important.
Given that the purpose of the draining was to further the Emperor's experiments, why would he consume them at once?
SM
... And Kun was able to avoid being destroyed by the combination of the entire Jedi Order focusing energy on him so severe, it actually destroyed most of the surface of the planet.
After he drained the energy of his Massassi warriors. And even then, his body was still destroyed and he was trapped in the Temple, which would be impressive if their technique was noted as obliterating spirits. This is no more impressive than Palpatine surviving the Death Star's reactor core -- which didn't require him to consume the lives of bystanders in order to conduct the ritual.
SM
Considering Kun didn't feel the need to "hide in plain sight" like Sidious, this feat seems impressive, but substantiates little in combat prowess.
RB
That he did all of this entirely without aid leads me to believe that he's the most powerful Sith ever through natural power and merit through dedicated training and study.
👆
SM
Kun was able to wave his hand and kill centuries old Jedi Masters,
I'm unimpressed until you can improve that the Jedi Master in question is worth something.
SM
freeze an entire army's worth of people perfectly and silently,
Through application of a Sith spell, which is a ritual, not a demonstration of natural power.
SM
and then fire blasts large enough to consume a large man. I mean, he single handedly took down the gigantic Sith wyrm and the entire Temple of Fire including most of its Massassi population with just his hatred concentrated through his amulet. Adding lightning or TK into the mix is just overkill.
RB
Through application of a Sithspellamulet, which is aritualobject that "radically" enhances the user's power (including telekinesis), not a demonstration of natural power.
RB
That he did all of this entirely without aid leads me to believe that he's the most powerful Sith ever through natural power and merit through dedicated training and study.
👆
SM
Hyperbole. Those three Jedi Masters were of no consequence in the battle itself. Their "standing" among their peers is moot when they could not defend themselves from a straightforward attack. That's like arguing Jango Fett was the baddest non-Force user evah and Mace Windu is godly awesome in combat because he deflected a few shots and then ran up to simply strike his head off like some kind of demented tee-ball player. It does not add up.
SM
and Vodo, the primary dueling instructor of the Order for the last five centuries, was toyed with and ultimately destroyed.
So when we have canon sources indicating that three Jedi Masters are celebrated swordmasters, we're tossing it out the window. But when Vodo, who is of both master the wooden stick and Unattested Combat Skill, enters the picture, I'm supposed to be impressed? I'd like you to explain the difference. Why are we disregarding statements of power and skill for three Jedi and inventing standing for another?
SM
Additionally, Kun was never defeated or in danger of defeat in saber combat ever once he became a Sith.
RB
As Lucien pointed out, this is relevant only in that it is an indicator of his skill during his era, it doesn't mean he'll necessarily outstrip opponents of other eras.
SM
I'm sure Exar Kun could stack up well against Starkiller. Probably do even better given his actual Sith Training and the amulets boosting his powers.
You may be right, but given Starkiller's demonstrations of "unaided" strength, that the Emperor was more powerful than him is an indication of great power.
SM
Nai points out that Dooku had reasons to feat Sidious besides simple combat considerations. Dooku admittedly knew that Yoda could destroy Sidious if he tapped the Dark Side, and yet he feared Sidious' wrath. If this is truly indicative only of battle prowess and not of say, leverage or inclination to torture/kill,
We have musings from the good Count from both Dark Rendezvous and the Revenge of the Sith novelization that indicate he was cognizant of a substantial power gap between him and his Master.
SM
it begs to question why Dooku did not shit himself and cave to Yoda right on Vjun.
You don't have to beg, I have the answer: Vjun was a dark side nexus and was reasonably confident that he could defeat Yoda on such a world. It's interesting that the good Count still hurled himself at Yoda after concluding that a dark!Yoda would defeat Palpatine, but Dooku never dared try that stunt with the Emperor.
SM
Good for you. But being unaided only gives you props if people actually care about "who is most powerful unaided".
RB
That he did all of this entirely without aid leads me to believe that he's the most powerful Sith ever through natural power and merit through dedicated training and study.
👆
RB
Kun's boost through the amulet is measurably higher than anyone's since it's noted in the narration as hundreds of thousands of times his normal power.
And yet "hundreds of thousands of Kuns" still failed to overpower "thousands" of Jedi Knights, per the text you provided. Could it be, then, that it was a phrase drenched in...
SM, with slight addendum by RB
Hyperbole?
Why, yes, I think so.
SM
This doesn't immediately say that Kun was weak and of no consequence;
RB
[Given that] no one's denying that he's powerful, Janus. (In fact, no one's denying he's extremely powerful),
SM, with addendum by RB
[Why are]you are stomping your feet and pitching a fit over it?
SM
it's explicitly stated that Kun is strong in the Force.
And Palpatine isn't?
SM
Vodo says it, calling him his greatest student, and Ulic is immediately aware of Kun's immense Force powers just through casual contact.
Starkiller was aware of Palpatine's "incredible power" by seeing him the first time.
SM
Amplifying that by hundreds of thousands means that the amount of power he's packing is simply well beyond whatever RotS Sidious is packing.
RB
And yet "hundreds of thousands of Kuns" still failed to overpower "thousands" of Jedi Knights, per the text you provided. Could it be, then, that it was a phrase drenched in...[quote]SM, with slight addendum by RB
Hyperbole?
Why, yes, I think so.[/quote]
SM
And to put the nail in the coffin finally, who gives a rat's ass if one is aided and the other is not? Power is power.
No, it's not. Borrowed power is borrowed power and, when determining who is the most powerful, it doesn't count anymore than Tarkin being the most powerful man in the mythos because he can blow up planets at whim.
SM
If Sidious had an amulet, I'm positive you wouldn't ***** and moan,
I would, because such power is not his in terms of natural ability. Does it make Kun an even more formidable combatant than before? Yes. But does it translate to natural strength in the Force? No. It's an obvious and easily understood distinction.