DCU gets remade - all books are #1s, Geoff Johns and Jim Lee on Justice League, more

Started by srankmissingnin367 pages

Originally posted by garybloke
proof that wolverine fans generally have iq's under 85 is the fact that they confuse convoluted garbage for depth and complexity. wolverine is neither deep nor complex, he's the result of writers throwing as many gimmicks into the character as possible to appeal to as many people as possible. this really is a fact, wolverine is essentially the barbie doll of comic characters, where you can find a different type of wolverine for each story line. he's a fun character, but anyone who tries to find deep meaning in the character or relateable qualities should stop reading wolverine and look to someone like tony stark, who's one of the few deep and complex marvel characters, a group that wolverine is not in.

on top of that, if you look at the overall quality of wolverine works, a horrendous animated series, a horrendous movie, horrendous video games, even wolverine action figures are of a mediocre quality, and most importantly the comics, even now wolverine series such as the best there is are horrendous, it proves that wolverine is a character that is not known for quality. hes known for cheap cash ins. for every good wolverine comic there are 10 bad one's. and this is coming from someone who has read almost every wolverine comic. even

the character really has nothing to offer except to the idiots that believe an abundance of booze, cussing and violence can make up for a decent storyline. of course you'll hear some bonky rationalization from wolverine fanboys but that's all it is, an attempt to twist the obvious shortcomings into something redeemable, but unlike wolverine fans the general populous has an iq over 90 and would most likely not fall for the crap disguised as an argument,.

this really is a fact, for anyone looking at wolverine for quality, your looking in the wrong place. there is a reason why wolverine has never won a single eisner award for any of his works.

I recommend you actually read an issue with Wolverine in it (as it's clear that is something you have never done), and if you can manage that (I have my doubts) then try branching outside of comic books into wide world of literature to see what character development and a deep and nuanced characters actual look like. I honestly doubt you will have much success with a medium that doesn't use pictures as a visual aid, but you should give it a try anyway. Perhaps a book on tape is the solution to your reading problem? Maybe head down to your local liberal on a day a volunteer is reading aloud to children? I'm sure there is several options to consider, but whatever you decide, familiarizing yourself with literature will surely go a long way to help you appreciate what a real fully formed character reads like.

It's not difficult to see why we disagree on this subject, considering that I actually read comic books and am familiar with the characters, where as you stumble around the panels like an invalid trying to glean as much as you can from the pretty pictures, with little to no ability to comprehend the narration or interpret the finer points of the plot. That leaves us with opinions from two different perspectives. First we have mine: The well thought out and carefully deduced opinion of someone well versed and knowledgeable on the subject. And then we have your opinion: The incoherent ramblings of a idiot who doesn't know where the Cap Locks key is and can barely string a coherent sentence together.

I'm sure the nuances and complexities of a character like Wolverine are hard to grasp, and extremely frustrating for someone like yourself, who is only familiar with the one dimensional cardboard cutouts DC tries to pass off as characters, and undoubtedly spent the better part of a decade struggling to get a passing grade in Work Place level English, scribbling illiterate poetic analyses of Tu-PAC songs, but that hardly changes the facts. Wolverine is the most complex and nuanced superhero.

The assertion that Wolverine's character or personality changes arbitrarily on the whim of the writer to mesh with any given story (or that writers are continually piling on various traits in order to appeal to a wider audience) is complete and utter bullshit. The reality is Wolverine hasn't drastically changed since Claremont defined the character, and any changes he has gone through have happened organically as the character evolved. Several times he has been exposed to revelations that confirmed his suspicions and worse fears about the men he was before he lost his memory which pushed him further down a given path.... but always on a path he was already on. His character has never arbitrarily changed - nor have his personality or motivations - to suit a plot outside of a few horrible and well documented examples (that every superhero has). Wolverine's personally, the inherent themes he embodies, the warring ideologies that drive and motivate the character, were all well defined soon after Claremont introduced the character... looooooooooong before his powers or skill set were elaborated on. Anyone who complains about perceived inconsistencies of the character, "How can Wolverine be a samurai and a raging berserker? Make up your mind!," has failed to grasp the fundamental nature of what defines Wolverine's personality. He is a violent savage who strives for nobility. That's the character. That's what makes him different that every other paint by the number superhero stock character like Batman or Superman. The innate duality is essential to the character. It's what makes him tick. It's the very reason Wolverine is the most nuanced and dynamic character in superhero comics. Wolverine isn't a good person, he tries to be, and he fails specifically... but that's what makes him an intriguing character study. Wolverine's portrayal has always been constant about these inconsistent because the are fundamental to defining him as a character, every single thing about Wolverine confirms to an internal logic that governs the character. You can pretend that Wolverine is simply a static, one dimensional "Badass" stock character like Midnighter who growls and snitks people, that that just illustrates your lack of knowledge and familiarity with the character and empathizes the fact that you lack the qualifications to credibly weigh in on this subject.

The Best There Is sucked... but it was still better than Finch's atrocious The Dark Knight. Two of the Batman films are worse than Origins. Much worse. Outside of movie tie-ins Marvel's entire action figure line is LEAGUES better than DCs, and Wolverine has some of the best sculpts. Anyone who actually bothered to watch Wolverine and The X-Men and didn't write it off from the title knows it was an awesome cartoon... better than The Batman or Brave and the Bold. X-Men Origins Wolverine Uncaged Edition is considered to be one the better comic book video games the last couple gens, in spite of the fact that it is a movie tie in which have short turn around dev time and a horrible track record. Wolverine is a notorious Eisner snub, not that awards matter much, I mean... just look at some of the great actor's who have never won an Oscar... and then think about some of the "actors" (using that term very loosely) that have.

If anyone disagrees with my assessment that Wolverine is the most complex, nuanced and dynamic character in superhero comics, then they simply haven't give the matter adequate thought. I recommend you familiarize yourself with Wolverine canon, and then write a detailed Character Study. 😎

im surprised anyone has any faith in wolverine after the abomination known as the best there is #1, even comic alliance called it the worst comic in the past decade.

srankmissingnin. if you like wolverine that's fine, but it doesn't change the fact that he's not a very good character. your entire post is nothing but a lot of rationalization.

"oh i like wolverine"

it's ok to be a wolverine fan, but that just tells the rest of us that you have bad taste and enjoy characters that not only are gimmicky in nature, but have starred in some of the worst stories in the history of comicdon. you're just one of those fans who are extremely easy to please. some of us have standards and want a good story line, and rarely get one with wolverine, like gary said, it's no wonder none of wolverine's works have won any eisner awards, because most of them are mediocre, cheap cash ins.

Originally posted by Justforaminute
srankmissingnin. if you like wolverine that's fine, but it doesn't change the fact that he's not a very good character. your entire post is nothing but a lot of rationalization.

"oh i like wolverine"

it's ok to be a wolverine fan, but that just tells the rest of us that you have bad taste and enjoy characters that not only are gimmicky in nature, but have starred in some of the worst stories in the history of comicdon. you're just one of those fans who are extremely easy to please. some of us have standards and want a good story line, and rarely get one with wolverine, like gary said, it's no wonder none of wolverine's works have won any eisner awards, because most of them are mediocre, cheap cash ins.

It's not an unquantifiable, or subjective assessment. Wolverine might not be your favorite superhero, but he is still a better character than whatever lame DC stock character you have boner for. Looking at the criteria that define what constitutes a dynamic, nuanced, and complex character, Wolverine is objectively the best character in superhero comics. No rational needed, just an analysis of facts and denial will only you get so far my dear Wang.

FYI, since you seemed to have forgotten and have taken to agreeing with yourself, you are Gary... and Wang... and dozens of different troll screens. This is KMC not United States of Tera.

lol someone's a little insecure. that's what you get for spreading your wolverine wanking and hero worship to a completely unrelated thread, cold hard facts to counter your rationale and make you doubt that wolverine is anywhere near as great as you think he is, because i'll tell you right now, he isn't.

and honestly man it's a bit mind boggling, you said yourself you like quality but i bet you own xmen origins wolverine on dvd, i bet you own wolverine's crappy game, i bet you own wolverine and the xmen's entire season, and i bet you own tons of crappy wolverine comics [because make no mistake, crap makes up 90% of his comics] including that abomination the best there is.

so how could you claim to like quality and be a wolverine fan at the same time when the character is the complete opposite of quality? that's an oxymoron if ive ever heard one.

i understand that people can have opinions on what they like but considering that wolverine's stories barely have any accolades in comparison to other characters, what you say is an opinion and only an opinion, and it tells me that you find crap appealing, what i say is an actual fact that can be backed up.

Originally posted by Justforaminute
lol someone's a little insecure. that's what you get for spreading your wolverine wanking and hero worship to a completely unrelated thread, cold hard facts to counter your rationale and make you doubt that wolverine is anywhere near as great as you think he is, because i'll tell you right now, he isn't.

lol

Buddy, you are the one who brought up Wolverine in the first place... did you forget? I was just responding to your stupid post... because apparently I have nothing better to do than feed trolls and give imbeciles acknowledgement. If you don't want me to talk about Wolverine in an unrelated thread... don't provoke me by bring him up in the first place?

Originally posted by Justforaminute
and honestly man it's a bit mind boggling, you said yourself you like quality but i bet you own xmen origins wolverine on dvd, i bet you own wolverine's crappy game, i bet you own wolverine and the xmen's entire season, and i bet you own tons of crappy wolverine comics [because make no mistake, crap makes up 90% of his comics] including that abomination the best there is.

so how could you claim to like quality and be a wolverine fan at the same time when the character is the complete opposite of quality? that's an oxymoron if ive ever heard one.

i understand that people can have opinions on what they like but considering that wolverine's stories barely have any accolades in comparison to other characters, what you say is an opinion and only an opinion, and it tells me that you find crap appealing, what i say is an actual fact that can be backed up.

I own everything, I'm a completion. I have Morrison's terrible Batman run. I have David Finch's Dark Knight. I have Allstar Batman and Robin, I have Kevin Smith's terrible work and Neal Adam's Odyssey. Hell, I have Batman Forever and Batman and Robin on Blu Ray. I have the good books and the bad books, if I didn't I would have an incomplete picture of the characters we are talking about and I would look like an idiot with a foot in my mouth typing uninformed posts much like you Wang. 60 percent of Wolverine comics are average, 10 percent are terrible, and 30 are great. It's the same for every character who isn't named Daredevil, who has had pretty much exclusively good books for the last two decades... and even Daredevil had Shadow Land which was atrocious.

Wolverine's book gets plenty of accolades, he's main coming of several critically acclaimed runs going into Aaron's magnum opus, and Wolverine and The X-Men the widely considered the best X-Men title on the shelf right now, that isn't X-Force... and Wolverine is staring in both of them.

think im about about done with this one. last post for the night

in the end you can't back up anything you say, you have nothing to suggest wolverine is the best character outside of "wolverine is teh awesome" which pretty much summarizes your post, then rationalizing and oxymorons of quality when the very concept of wolverine is devoid of any.

there's a reason why several others including 2 moderators were baffled by the stupidity in your post, if that's the case then there's something seriously wrong with your stance.

i'll tell u what, when wolverine actually wins a fair amount of eisners, hell when he wins one eisner, when his films, games animated series and comics in general aren't panned universally then, then you can talk about quality and wolverine without being the laughing stock of the thread.

and as far as wolverine being such a complex character as you put it, as i said before a character with numerous gimmicks isn't complex or deep, it's messy, confusing and just lazy. regardless of how much you like the character, it really is a fact that marvel targets him toward younger, naive readers who will pay for anything that involves swearing violence and boozing, wolverine is the epitome of cheap cash ins, both as a character and his works. there is no depth to the character, and the only thing remotely close to complexity involving anything with wolverine is the fact that his moronic fanbase can't figure out that his only purpose is to produce as many cheap cash ins as possible. maybe if i made a portrait out of glitter then wolverine's fanbase could understand, but they might get too distracted with the pretty colors.

i know it will never happen, but i really wish they would just kill this character off, it would be good for the comic industry, like locking a heroin addict up for his own good.

Back on topic...

Sweet preview of JL 5. Can't wait.

Aquaman's gonna be good too. Stranded in the desert? Yes please.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Back on topic...

Open Message from Wang to All
Wang proclaims to the denizens of KMC;

Wang has been unfair to many of you, you are not retarded.

Wang quotes John Lennon, "living is easy with eyes closed".

Wang believes you enjoy discussing comics and that is a good thing. Wang regrets you are not allowed to have heated debates and everything has to be like a children's tea party.

Wang apologizes for mocking the afflicted, Quanchi, Carver 9 and abusing the retarded Guy222, the Ninjak, outing the bullshitters sin I AM and Guy222 and laughing at the power crazed mods and members -pr-, Badabing, Don Corleone. Wang also apologizes to the sheep and quotes John Lennon again, well paraphrases anyway so no quotation marks, we are run by the insane for insane goals.

Wang believes in Anonymous and that we all have a duty to FIGHT THE POWER!!!101

and Wang loves all of you just like Jesus. In fact Wang hopes you will take his words to heart and Wang can be your personal Jesus.

-Wang

Aquaman AND JL tomorrow. Can't wait.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Aquaman AND JL tomorrow. Can't wait.
I've already read them...advanced copies. I'll PM you the endings. biscuits

And why do people debate obvious socks? dur

Originally posted by Badabing
I've already read them...advanced copies. I'll PM you the endings. biscuits

And why do people debate obvious socks? dur

If you read them already, i'd expect scans sent my way, bastich.

Justice League #4 --

Spoiler:
Darkseid is beastly. First, he one shotted the whole Justice League at the end of last issue with what seemed to be a casual flexing energy attack. Then, his omega beams went straight through Superman, no-sold Hal Jordan casually, then completly destroyed his defenses, breaking his arm, and then walking away.

Bruce unmasking just like that in front of Hal was OOC. Next issue should be interesting.

JL was so...mediocre, for lack of a better word. Felt like I was reading a Bendis comic. Disliked the introduction of Darkseid, I had hoped that they would for more of a Kirby portrayal, it feels like Thanos is invading DC.

JL was just... Odd, imo.

Aquaman was all right...

Yeah, Darkseid was portrayed as pretty powerful without utilizing much effort, but the issue in question was weird. Batman's heart-to-heart with Green Lantern felt OOC to me as well especially if Batman's history (or the spirit of his history) is the same as pre-Flashpoint. This definitely feels Bendis-like, especially with the dialogue, which is weird because Johns' knows how to write team book and good stories, period. I feel like this is basically as Green Lantern and Batman book and not enough time is spent developing or showcasing the other members of the League.

Worse than that is the fact that this arc will wrap up next issue. Way too much crap to cram in a single issue in order for a decent resolution, even if they opt for a double page or giant size format.

I cannot say anything good about the dialogue -I'm not reading JL-, but good team books actually spend developping certain characters during a particular arc and let them rest while they see the others and a whole picture. Trying to juggle every character every issue is actually suicidal and a plot killer.

Aquaman was strange, but I am glad that they showed that he's not completely useless out of water. Even with all the injuries he had, he was still able to survive in the desert for god knows how long, so I was happy enough with it, and it was a nice set up for the next issue(s) I felt.

Liked JL. It was nice to see Darkseid portrayed at 'godlike' power levels after all this time.

New Guardians was also pretty good. I'm curious to see what this "Invictus" can do...