Originally posted by The Pict
facepalm I'm reading that Batman #1 has Damien Wayne as Robin with no Grayson or Tim Drake.....this is pretty shocking. Just wiping away years of history. Years of following certain characters now means nothing.
They are not wiping years of history away from the Batman universe. At least this is what everyone is saying in the interviews. For instance, Barbra Gordan still got shot and was Oracle. At least read the story before making that claim.
Originally posted by The Pict
facepalm I'm reading that Batman #1 has Damien Wayne as Robin with no Grayson or Tim Drake.....this is pretty shocking. Just wiping away years of history. Years of following certain characters now means nothing.
That kind of hit me too. I was reading last week's Batman, thinking "what am I doing this for?"
Originally posted by Prep-Man
They are not wiping years of history away from the Batman universe. At least this is what everyone is saying in the interviews. For instance, Barbra Gordan still got shot and was Oracle. At least read the story before making that claim.
Cursory elements. Are you denying the widespread changes to characters? Obviously they'll keep some things the same, but it's still rewriting and replacing what came before. Wiping out what I've invested time and money into isn't my idea of fresh. Good stories are, which can be done without this nonsense.
And maybe Batman stays roughly the same (although it doesn't...it pretty clearly ignores the recent evolutions of especially Dick). What about the ones that are specifically rehauled from the ground up, as many explicitly are? It's a swift nut-kick to those that have followed them. Imagine a lifelong Teen Titans fan staring at the completely different book about to be released...do they start over with brand new characters, waving goodbye to the old? Probably, for some. Others will feel disillusioned. As always, many readers will stay or go based on the merits of the writing and art...but then, if that's the case, why reboot?
Originally posted by Prep-Man
At least read the story before making that claim.
Originally posted by Digi
Many titles will have strong characterizations and good stories. That I don't dispute. That's just not enough for me anymore. I don't have the time, money, or desire to cross my fingers that DC will build new legacies in the coming decades.Speaking in angry absolutes is usually a mistake, so I'm not swearing off DC forever. But I won't be picking up titles regularly, and something dramatic will have to happen to convince me otherwise.
Originally posted by Digi
That kind of hit me too. I was reading last week's Batman, thinking "what am I doing this for?"Cursory elements. Are you denying the widespread changes to characters? Obviously they'll keep some things the same, but it's still rewriting and replacing what came before. Wiping out what I've invested time and money into isn't my idea of fresh. Good stories are, which can be done without this nonsense.
And maybe Batman stays roughly the same (although it doesn't...it pretty clearly ignores the recent evolutions of especially Dick). What about the ones that are specifically rehauled from the ground up, as many explicitly are? It's a swift nut-kick to those that have followed them. Imagine a lifelong Teen Titans fan staring at the completely different book about to be released...do they start over with brand new characters, waving goodbye to the old? Probably, for some. Others will feel disillusioned. As always, many readers will stay or go based on the merits of the writing and art...but then, if that's the case, why reboot?
Well, let's look at the full list. And my opinions on the titles.
Action Comics (Superman will change, but sounds that it will have both an All-Star Superman/Golden Age feel, which I like)
Writer: Grant Morrison
Artist: Rags Morales
Superman (Same)
Writer/Breakdowns: George Perez
Finishes: Jess Merino
Superboy (Lobdell stated most of the history with Superboy will be unchanged)
Writer: Scott Lobdell
Artist: RB Silva
Supergirl (Same with Supergirl, although her costume has changed.)
Writers: Michael Green and Mark Johnson
Artist: Mahmud A. Asrar
Detective Comics
Writer/Artist: Tony Daniel
Batman (Most of Batman's history will be unchanged, even Morrison will be completing his Batman Inc. in 2012)
Writer: Scott Snyder
Artist: Greg Capullo
Batman and Robin (Same)
Writer: Peter J. TOmasi
Artists: Patrick Gleason and Mark Gray
Batman: The Dark Knight (Same)
Writer/Artist: David Finch
Batgirl (Barbara is Batgirl, but he history is still intact. )
Writer: Gail Simone
Artists: Ardian Syaf and Vicente Cifuentes
Batwoman (History unchanged)
Writers: JH Williams III and W Haden Blackman
Artist: JH Williams III
Catwoman (Winick has said her history is still intact.)
Writer: Judd Winick
Artist: Guillem March
Red Hood and the Outlaws (not much word, except the lineup is changing.)
Writer: Scott Lobdell
Artist: Kenneth Rocafort
Batwing (New Character)
Writer: Judd Winick
Artist: Ben Oliver
Nightwing (Higgins has said Nightwing will not change)
Writer: Kyle Higgins
Artist: Eddie Barrows
Birds of Prey (Very little info, but the lineup has changed)
Writer: Duane Swierczynski
Artist: Jesus Saiz
Green Lantern (Everything from Sinestro Corps to Blackest Night is still in continuity)
Writer: Geoff Johns
Artists: Doug Mahnke and Christian Alamy
Green Lantern Corps (Same, everything is in continuity)
Writer: Peter J Tomasi
Artists: Fernando Pasarin and Scott Hanna
Green Lanterns: New Guardians (Same)
Writer: Tony Bedard
Artists: Tyler Kirkham and Batt
Red Lanterns (Same)
Writer: Peter Milligan
Artists: Ed Benes and Rob Hunter
Justice League (Standard lineup, however, the JLA is now the first super-hero team.
Writer: Geoff Johns
Artist: Jim Lee
Justice League International (Not much to go on)
Writer: Dan Jurgens
Artist: Aaron Lopresti
Wonder Woman (Not much info)
Writer: Brian Azzarello
Artist: Cliff Chiang
Aquaman (Johns has said that most of Aquaman's history is still intact.)
Writer: Geoff Johns
Artist: Ivan Reis
Flash (Same with Barry, although there is little tweaks like how his costume comes out of the ring)
Writer: Francis Manapul and Brian Buccellato
Teen Titans ( Not much info, but Lobdell has said the characters will change very little. The costumes have the biggest change, however.)
Writer: Scott Lobdell
Artists: Brett Booth and Norm Rapmund
Legion Lost (All legion continuity intact.)
Writer: Fabian Nicieza
Artist: Pete Woods
Legion of Super-Heroes (Same)
Writer: Paul Levitz
Artist: Francis Portela
Artist: Francis Manapul
Blue Beetle (Haven't read many interviews, but some things will change, and most of it will be in continuity.)
Writer: Tony Bedard
Artist: Ig Guara and Ruy Rose
The Savage Hawkman (Daniel said he will change his origin into a less convoluted one. Which I like.
Writer: Tony Daniel
Artist: Philip Tan
Static Shock (Continuity still intact.)
Writers: John Rozum and Scott McDaniel
Artist: Scott McDaniel
O.M.A.C. (New Character, but will take a lot from the Kirby character)
Writers: Dan Didio and Keith Giffen
Artist: Scott Kolins
The Fury of Firestorm (Most of the continuity still intact, but will add to the mythos of Firestorm)
Writers: Gail Simone
Artist: Ethan Van Sciver (just covers) and Yildiray Cinar
DC Universe Presents
Writer: Paul Jenkins
Artist: Bernard Chang
Green Arrow (Big change from the rest. In terms of how the character will operate and feel)
Writer: JT Krul
Artist: Dan Jurgens
Mister Terrific (Not much info, but most of the stuff will be intact. Even Karen Starr will be in it)
Writer: Eric Wallace
Artist: Roger Robinson
Captain Atom (Different look, but same character)
Writer: JT Krul
Artist: Freddie Williams II
All-Star Western (Same old, same old)
Writer: Justin Gray
Artist: Jimmy Palmiotti
(will feature Darwyn Cooke’s “Vigilante” at some point)
Hawk and Dove (Same characters, not much change)
Writer: Sterling Gates
Artist: Rob Liefeld
Grifter
Writer: Nathan Edmundson
Artist: CAFU
The Men Of War (Sgt. Rock won't be in it, however his son (i believe) will be in it.)
Writer: Ivan Brandon
Artist: Tom Derenick.
Stormwatch (Been retconned that Wildstorm has always existed in the DCU)
Writer: Paul Cornell
Artist: Miguel Sepulveda.
Deathstroke (Much of his continuity will be intact)
Writer: Kyle Higgins
Artists: Joe Bennett and Art Thibert.
Suicide Squad (Different feel and looks for the characters.)
Writer: Adam Glass
Artist: Marco Rudy
Blackhawks (New organization)
Writer: Mike Costa
Artist: Ken Lashley
Justice League Dark (Not much change)
Writer: Peter Milligan
Artist: Mikel Janin
Animal Man (Same)
Writer: Jeff Lemire
Artists: Travel Foreman and Dan Green
Swamp Thing (Same)
Writer: Scott Snyder
Artist: Yannick Paquette
Demon Knights (Unknown)
Writer: Paul Cornell
Artists: Diogenes Neves and Oclair Albert
Frankenstein, Agent of SHADE (Much of Franky's stuff will still be there)
Writer: Jeff Lemire
Artist: Alberto Ponticelli
Resurrection Man (Same)
Writers: Dan Abnett and Andy Lanning
Artist: Fernando Dagnino
Voodoo
Writer: Ron Marz
Artist: Sami Basri
I, Vampire (same)
Writer: Josh Fialkov
Artist: Andrea Sorrentino
So, all in all a SOFT reboot as they call it. Most of the continuity is staying. The BIG changes so far are JSA (Which they will use in the near future), and a lot of new costumes.
As for the whole continuity thing, Astro summed it up pretty well and would say it a LOT better than I would. Here is his quote:
It's not continuity; it's consistency. As long as the characters are fundamentally the same, I don't need all the very specific events in a long chain of events to have happened. The reboot doesn't bother me for precisely that reason; the best version of Hal Jordan was "New Frontier", and that showing is not any poorer for not taking into direct continuity the great work that was done by Marv Wolfman and John Broome and Steve Englehart, much less the sub par work done by a host of writers. It works because Darwyn Cooke's conception of the character was consistent with the core ideals of what that character represents.Frankly, I wouldn't mind seeing less reliance on continuity in the future, and a drive for new ideas with every new creative team changes. Grant Morrison's Batman run is emblematic of just what I'm talking about; he's establishing his own continuity, really, and yeah he's throwing in all these different past elements, but he's mostly just building his own mythology and creating his own characters. The run itself is intricate and self referential, but it's also a very self contained piece, with all elements properly introduced before they gain prominence. It's a nice contrast to, say, X Men Legacy which is all about past continuity, almost totally impenetrable to the average fan.
Basically, every time someone takes over, say, Superman I'd like to see them try to create their own big run, their own characters. Superman is still Superman -- filtered through the lens of the writer -- and some supporting cast members stay the same, but the writer is free to reference and or alter little details as he sees fit, for the good of the arc.
So far, the DC characters are FUNDAMENTALLY the same. There are changes, but DC/Marvel are always in a constant state of change/reboot. It's not the first and certainly won't be the last.
Tom Breevort calls the dc the charlie sheen of winning and takes a few potshots at the dcu reboot.
[Reader question:] Unless you guys are going to announce something amazing within the next few moths, DC epicly won this year. Though, I always buy anything involving Spider-Man, so you will get more business there.
[Tom Brevoort:] Yes, they’ve epicly won their way down to being 25% of the market. if they keep winning at this rate, they’ll be out of business before long. They’re the Charlie Sheens of comics, winning their way to extinction.
Quote:
–Marvel Senior Vice President of Publishing Tom Brevoort on the Distinguished Competition, via his Formspring account. So that would make Marvel…Ashton Kutcher?
Okay, so that was a pretty solid smack from Brevoort Marvel’s crosstown (or round-the-block, as the case may be) rivals. But in other Formspring responses he’s a bit less catty and more comprehensive in his diagnosis of DC’s perceived problems. In one response, he advises DC to “stop trying to become what they think Marvel is” and play to their company’s and characters’ unique strengths, because “their interpretation of how our universe operates and how we plan out storylines and deal with our creative talent is so off-the-mark it’s laughable sometimes….[they should stop] trying to be a bad Marvel clone–because they’re not even getting bad Marvel right.”
In another response, he discusses DC’s recent $2.99 pricing initiative: “they got virtually no uptick on their sales, but cut a quarter of their profit margin away.” Brevoort argues that the audience for (his example) Booster Gold will buy Booster Gold comics regardless of cost, but cutting that cost won’t make a new audience for Booster Gold materialize either out of the non-comics-reading populace or from fans of other properties.
But to hear Brevoort tell it, he’s still pulling for the other publisher. “I want them to thrive and prosper,” he tells one questioner, positing a world where Marvel routinely beats a “a vibrant, healthy, competitive DC” as his ideal. This, he says, is why he thought “their reboot was a necessary step and a smart move overall”…but he adds the caveat that “I don’t think they’ve gone about putting it together in the smartest way possible.” Clearly, some of his initial support for/defense of/optimism about the DC relaunch has dimmed. Hence, perhaps, the talk of tiger blood…
There were suppose to be 500 protestors, but only like 15 showed up. LOL! Fail.
http://www.newsarama.com/comics/sdcc2011-dcnu-protest-110723.html
I don't think anyone who really likes or loves comics wants to see DC fail outright as Marvel and the industry as a whole needs them. I want DC back to the way it was, tbh. There's not enough about this reboot which has me excited to follow, at least not by paying for these issues. And it feels like a waste to continue collecting books that won't matter in a few weeks time, anyway (at least to me).
I hope the influx of new readers and the diehard loyalists are enough to sustain the company's new direction, I really do.
Back to the way it was? Like some books being good, some being bad, some being average? I can tell you it will always be like this.
If you're talking about your JSA characters, I sympathize with you (kinda), because many of those characters were really good, but it's not like DC came out with mind blowing stories. Ok, Marc's was pretty good, but it's not like these characters will be gone forever.
If it's Superman, I think the legal issues had a hand in this.
BTW, by having a closed mind on things, is one of the reasons small books don't make it past issue 20/30's. Fans complain about their book being cancelled, but it's ultimately the fans fault for not picking up the book or giving it a fair chance. Stop bitching about things and try something new. Change will happen whether you like it or not. It's a business and if a title isn't selling, the logical thing to do is cancel it.
Originally posted by The Pict
facepalm I'm reading that Batman #1 has Damien Wayne as Robin with no Grayson or Tim Drake.....this is pretty shocking. Just wiping away years of history. Years of following certain characters now means nothing.
This isn't true...
Batman (like Green Lantern) is remaining almost entirely unchanged.
Dick, Jason, Tim, Steph (I think) and Damien have all been Robin, and Dick is going back to Nightwing after being Batman. Although Steph (likely) going back to Spoiler again after she outright told Bruce she would not stop being Batgirl is kinda lame.
Essentially, Batman is just having a renumbering. Especially seeing as Batman Inc is continuing.
The biggest change in the Batverse is going to be Babs/Oracle, but even then they're saying that she was still crippled by the Joker and was Oracle for awhile at least.
That being said, the loss of the JSA and making Supes the first ever hero is some that grates me, as I really like the idea of them being the first generation of hero's who inspired the others. And also I always loved that Sandman was the first ever hero in the DCU, as he was basically a guy in a gas mask, rather than a superpowered hero.
Also the backseating of Wally once again because Geoff Johns can't get over his Silver Age fetish is aggravating as hell.
Originally posted by JakeTheBankI agree the balance of power can't slip to the point dc just goes belly up. The healthy competition between coke(marvel) and dc's (pepsi) is a good thing. I like you feel the reboot isn't the right answer and it makes me cringe even thinking about it.
I don't think anyone who really likes or loves comics wants to see DC fail outright as Marvel and the industry as a whole needs them. I want DC back to the way it was, tbh. There's not enough about this reboot which has me excited to follow, at least not by paying for these issues. And it feels like a waste to continue collecting books that won't matter in a few weeks time, anyway (at least to me).I hope the influx of new readers and the diehard loyalists are enough to sustain the company's new direction, I really do.
Originally posted by Prep-Man
Back to the way it was? Like some books being good, some being bad, some being average? I can tell you it will always be like this.If you're talking about your JSA characters, I sympathize with you (kinda), because many of those characters were really good, but it's not like DC came out with mind blowing stories. Ok, Marc's was pretty good, but it's not like these characters will be gone forever.
If it's Superman, I think the legal issues had a hand in this.
BTW, by having a closed mind on things, is one of the reasons small books don't make it past issue 20/30's. Fans complain about their book being cancelled, but it's ultimately the fans fault for not picking up the book or giving it a fair chance. Stop bitching about things and try something new. Change will happen whether you like it or not. It's a business and if a title isn't selling, the logical thing to do is cancel it.
Back to the way it was with the continuity I'd invested in for over a decade of my life. Quality is great, and I'd prefer that all books are great, but the reality is that won't be the case. And even books which might be written well and have superb art I might not even think is the best thing ever due to my personal preference of the subject matter or style of writing; it's all subjective.
It's not just the JSA, but yeah, removing them and presumably all aspects of the Golden Age characters/events just to put over Superman as the world's first hero and the JLA as a recent phenomenon is ridiculous. For a company that prides itself on legacies, the aspect of removing them from canon has such a rippling effect on existing canon - even the canon that's "unchanged" - makes it so figuring out what the hell is "canon" or not is going to be a ***** initially, but the worse part is that most of us will resign ourselves in "Well, that didn't happen" or "______ doesn't exist as of now". And the ironic thing? Geoff Johns' run on JSA was hailed as one of the best runs in the team's existence, and was even voted best comic series of the year. And James Robinson' JSA stuff >>>> his JLA crap by far.
Morrison on Superman is about the only thing worth of note concerning the character, I feel.
Er, yeah, that's the whole point? Why should I buy a comic I
A.) Have no interest in reading?
B.) Don't support the current direction?
C.) Don't believe the quality is up to par?
I'll buy the seldom few DC books that pique my interest, but I'm not going to support Johns and Lee wholeheartedly on this misadventure. "Bitching" about it doesn't do anything. Me not buying the product set before me does. I'm plenty open minded, but I'm not going to buy a bunch of comics whose premise I don't agree with. I like DC, but I'm no loyalist to the company.
Originally posted by JakeTheBank
Back to the way it was with the continuity I'd invested in for over a decade of my life. Quality is great, and I'd prefer that all books are great, but the reality is that won't be the case. And even books which might be written well and have superb art I might not even think is the best thing ever due to my personal preference of the subject matter or style of writing; it's all subjective.It's not just the JSA, but yeah, removing them and presumably all aspects of the Golden Age characters/events just to put over Superman as the world's first hero and the JLA as a recent phenomenon is ridiculous. For a company that prides itself on legacies, the aspect of removing them from canon has such a rippling effect on existing canon - even the canon that's "unchanged" - makes it so figuring out what the hell is "canon" or not is going to be a ***** initially, but the worse part is that most of us will resign ourselves in "Well, that didn't happen" or "______ doesn't exist as of now". And the ironic thing? Geoff Johns' run on JSA was hailed as one of the best runs in the team's existence, and was even voted best comic series of the year. And James Robinson' JSA stuff >>>> his JLA crap by far.
Morrison on Superman is about the only thing worth of note concerning the character, I feel.
Er, yeah, that's the whole point? Why should I buy a comic I
A.) Have no interest in reading?
B.) Don't support the current direction?
C.) Don't believe the quality is up to par?I'll buy the seldom few DC books that pique my interest, but I'm not going to support Johns and Lee wholeheartedly on this misadventure. "Bitching" about it doesn't do anything. Me not buying the product set before me does. I'm plenty open minded, but I'm not going to buy a bunch of comics whose premise I don't agree with. I like DC, but I'm no loyalist to the company.
Like you said earlier, DC was changing it's continuity all the time. Seriously, this is no different, considering MOST of the things will be UNCHANGED. Also, I'm pretty sure DC has no say in the Superman changes. They might lose his character all together from what I hear.